Thank god for smoke alarms

[Sabcat]

I have a Sterling inverter charger and 2 smoke alarms, non in the engine room (if indeed we're calling the room at the back with a close coupled engine in it an engine room, I have my doubts since another thread). I should probably fit one in there for sake of safety and less than a ten spot.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about Sterling stuff. There's shed loads of it out on the cut and you rarely hear of issues. Any kit can fail.

[AKULA]

If you do a google search for sterling smoking charger it's far more common than I thought I've fitted many . Having said that ive never left a boat I haven't fitted smoke alarms to there as important as a hole in you're hull.

If you do a google search for sterling smoking charger it's far more common than I thought I've fitted many . Having said that ive never left a boat I haven't fitted smoke alarms to there as important as a hole in you're hull.

[bottle]

I have a sterling inverter/charger and have 0 smoke alarms.

 

For the sake of £19, guaranteed for ten years, http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Battery-Operated-Optical-Long-Life-Smoke-Alarm/p/187945

 

and while you are there get one of these (if you do not already have one) for £20 guaranteed for seven years. http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Battery-Operated-Carbon-Monoxide-Alarm/p/187949

[AKULA]

 

I'm suprised to here some don't have smoke detectors I watched that boat on fire a couple of yrs ago the speed of it frightened the life out of me . I have 7 extinguishers 3 smoke detectors 2 monoxide detectors . Though to be honest when I woke yesterday I couldn't see a thing I also keep cable cutters near dc supply I've seen isolators melt before now .

[Rob@BSSOffice]

No load it was fully charged I've opened it up none of its owne fuses blown the thing is a rite off I've installed several it's nearly 18 months old . And rubbish from now on I'll be fitting ctek m300 I'll post pics tomorrow of the sterling interior I'm speaking to Charles at sterling tomoz all gear I've used on all boats has bin sterling to all customers to say I'm worried is an understatement I'm glad in a way it was my owne boat

 

Did you get to speak with Charles and have you any photos you'd like to share with us (can be privately using https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/contact-us/contact-us-by-email/ )

 

Inverter related incidents are something we are looking at closely if and when we can gather the facts and details about the 'events'

 

Regards

[paulstoke1975]

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/3KW-Power-Inverter-DC48V-to-AC220V-Pure-Sine-Wave-Invertor-DC-AC-Converter-fast-delivery-fast/32220130549.html

 

take a look at the price of this chinese cheapie

[mango]

Is there any reason why smoke and carbon monoxide alarms are not a requirement of the BSS? They are more likely to save lives than fire extinguishers.

[magnetman]

It seems to me that this is because the BSS is targeted at preventing boats being a danger to other people and other boats, rather than preventing boats being a danger to their owners.

Its not really about personal safety inside the vessel. otherwise CO and Smoke alarms and LPG sniffers would surely be essential and tested on each inspection

 

maybe a requirement will be brought in but it (BSS) has been going about 15 or 20 years now and plenty of people have suffered CO poisoning so there obviously isn't an interest in having this requirement in the test.

 

edit to add BSS in brackets to clarify

Edited December 4, 2014 by magnetman

[Keeping Up]

If they did include the requirement in the BSS, then surely it would have to require the alarm to be of a type certified for use in a marine environment. I doubt that such an animal exists, and if it did it would be prohibitively expensive because of, for example, the need to be proof against being splashed with salt-water.

[magnetman]

Thats a good point !

[mango]

Those of us who have had the sense to install smoke and carbon monoxide alarms in boats will know that ordinary domestic alarms usually survive fairly well in boats. Obviously alarms designed for use in a marine environment would be better but how many more people should be allowed to die in the meantime?

[5thHorseman]

If they did include the requirement in the BSS, then surely it would have to require the alarm to be of a type certified for use in a marine environment. I doubt that such an animal exists, and if it did it would be prohibitively expensive because of, for example, the need to be proof against being splashed with salt-water.

 

I would have thought, "complies with BS EN 14604: 2005 - alarms to be fitted at specific points (eg cabin containing :- inverters/chargers/electical gear, heating devices, cooking devices etc or 1 per 30 feet of boat length" or some such wording, would be suficient. At very least it would be a good starting point and force awareness even if only every 4 years

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Is there any reason why smoke and carbon monoxide alarms are not a requirement of the BSS? They are more likely to save lives than fire extinguishers.

In the 2004 BSS standards revision consultation to e proposal was there, not as a requirement for private craft, but as an advice check - thus aligned with other 'first party' checks such as second means of escape (6.3.1), ventilation (8.9.1) and flue problems (8.10) etc.

 

From the points that came through the consultation the committees considered that on balance such checks would not be introduced as at that time alarm suitability for boats was still under question. And the BSS office would be asked to monitor the situation and not least to understand how many boats were fitted with working alarms. And the BSS position was to ask boaters to consider fitting smoke and CO alarms.

 

In 2007 we conducted a survey of alarm installation and use. I haven't time at the moment to go back to the results, but the figures were far, far lower for smoke alarms installed in boats than private households. The picture was worse for CO alarms.

 

Since 2005 new standards have been published and an alarm technology and suitability for boats has improved for both CO and smoke alarms. This led to us changing our position as the new standards, which include sections on boat installation, were published to strongly recommending the installation of both type of alarm.

 

Also since in the intervening decade there have been many incidents where either, if an alarm had been fitted, inquests and fire investigators believe there would have been a different outcome; or where the outcome was more positive because of an active alarm, such as the OP on this thread.

 

Also anecdotally we now see more alarms on boats and we also witness organisations, especially fire and rescues services, promoting their use and handing out alarms to boat owners. The general picture has probably improved to some extent.

 

We are planning a new survey of alarm installation and use next year. We are also involved in some joint research with a university on carbon monoxide dispersion and we are also working with another joint initiative that we hope will help 'spread the word' on the towpath.

 

The question for the future may be that; related to smoke and CO alarms, should there be 'advice-only' checks that determine:

• if a certified alarm or alarms to the specified standards is/are installed; and if so,
• are all such alarms aboard in suitable positions
• are all such alarms aboard working when tested using the test button; and
• are all such alarms aboard in date?

However with all this talk of alarms, and they are critical, it is vital to keep in mind that alarms are the backstop, prevention is a much better approach.

 

HTH

Rob

[5thHorseman]

<snip>

 

The question for the future may be that; related to smoke and CO alarms, should there be 'advice-only' checks that determine:

• if a certified alarm or alarms to the specified standards is/are installed; and if so,
• are all such alarms aboard in suitable positions
• are all such alarms aboard working when tested using the test button; and
• are all such alarms aboard in date?

However with all this talk of alarms, and they are critical, it is vital to keep in mind that alarms are the backstop, prevention is a much better approach.

 

HTH

Rob

Rob

 

I am not trying to be critical of the BSS but I do not understand why there are requirements for flame failiure devices, LPG storage and leak testing, ventilation, flues, fire exstinguihers etc but only advice about alarms.

 

The original OP complied (I assume) with all of the requirements of the BSS and I am sure did not knowingly fit or have fitted the piece of equipment that was faulty that caught fire. Thus however good his preventitive action may have been he could still have died.

 

The circle, surely, should be closed by insisting (as in a requirement) that adequate warning systems are fitted, because we regularly see on the forum where people have died through fire and/or fumes.on narrowboats.

Modern alarms now have batteries which last for years, the smoke alarms I have bough have a 10 year life sealed battery and I have also just purchased a CO alarm to replace the 5 year old alarm which is going out of date on the boat with a 10 year life.

 

With the life expectancy of these types of alarm we are talking peanuts in 10 years cost compared with licences, mooring fees fuel etc

 

 

Edit - spelling

Edited December 4, 2014 by 5thHorseman

[MoominPapa]

 

I am not trying to be critical of the BSS but I do not understand why there are requirements for flame failiure devices, LPG storage and leak testing, ventilation, flues, fire exstinguihers etc but only advice about alarms.

 

The original OP complied (I assume) with all of the requirements of the BSS and I am sure did not knowingly fit or have fitted the piece of equipment that was faulty that caught fire. Thus however good his preventitive action may have been he could still have died.

 

The BSS makes a distinction between hazards to the occupant(s) of a boat and hazards to people in the vicinity of the boat. Flame failure, LPG storage and leak testing are mandatory because a gas explosion has a good chance of killing passers-by, ventilation and flues are advisory because they'll probably only (!) kill occupants of the boat. I guess alarms, if included, would be in the advisory category.

 

The BSS only _insists_ that you don't kill others; it only helps you to help yourself when the risk is to the boater.

 

MP.

Edited December 4, 2014 by MoominPapa

[mango]

I am not happy that alarms are not compulsory. We regularly read about fires on boats and carbon monoxide poisoning is not unknown.

 

As a frequent hirer I am disappointed that only one boat was provided with a smoke detector. Fortunately, few hire boats have solid fuel stoves.

[5thHorseman]

This from equipment threads today http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=72169

[5thHorseman]

The BSS makes a distinction between hazards to the occupant(s) of a boat and hazards to people in the vicinity of the boat. Flame failure, LPG storage and leak testing are mandatory because a gas explosion has a good chance of killing passers-by, ventilation and flues are advisory because they'll probably only (!) kill occupants of the boat. I guess alarms, if included, would be in the advisory category.

 

The BSS only _insists_ that you don't kill others; it only helps you to help yourself when the risk is to the boater.

 

MP.

For the clarity, the definition used here of "Boater" means:-

The owner of the boat, also their spouse/partner, their parents, children, grandchildren, friends also includes firemen, paramedics & pets.

[MoominPapa]

For the clarity, the definition used here of "Boater" means:-

The owner of the boat, also their spouse/partner, their parents, children, grandchildren, friends also includes firemen, paramedics & pets.

It does indeed. Those classes of people are dependent on the boat owner not making into a deathtrap. Since there are an infinite number of ways it can be made into a deathtrap, and the BSS can't legislate against them all, it can't really be any other way, can it?

 

MP.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

I am not happy that alarms are not compulsory. We regularly read about fires on boats and carbon monoxide poisoning is not unknown.

 

As a frequent hirer I am disappointed that only one boat was provided with a smoke detector. Fortunately, few hire boats have solid fuel stoves.

 

There have been over 60 deaths from CO and fire on boats in the past 20 years - approx 30 of each cause

 

 

In regards to hire craft - that is a different story.

Have a look at the hirer safety review. The BSS was tasked by the various navigation authorities to run a general review of hirer safety. It goes beyond the basic condition and minimum safety standards for the boat (i.e. BSS standards) as the vehicle. It covers other elements such as hirer understanding and knowledge of boat and plant operation, accident and incident review.

 

If you read far enough, you'll note it covers the subject of smoke and CO alarms http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/about-us/hirer-safety-review/hirer-safety-review-stage-2/

 

What may be predicted is that changes to the BSS examination for hire craft is likely coming out of the other end of this review - what those changes are, we will see in 2015.

 

Rob

[mango]

 

There have been over 60 deaths from CO and fire on boats in the past 20 years - approx 30 of each cause

 

 

In regards to hire craft - that is a different story.

Have a look at the hirer safety review. The BSS was tasked by the various navigation authorities to run a general review of hirer safety. It goes beyond the basic condition and minimum safety standards for the boat (i.e. BSS standards) as the vehicle. It covers other elements such as hirer understanding and knowledge of boat and plant operation, accident and incident review.

 

If you read far enough, you'll note it covers the subject of smoke and CO alarms http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/about-us/hirer-safety-review/hirer-safety-review-stage-2/

 

What may be predicted is that changes to the BSS examination for hire craft is likely coming out of the other end of this review - what those changes are, we will see in 2015.

 

Rob

Thanks Rob. That makes very interesting reading. The link to the Hire Boat Code on your linked page is dead but the Code is easy to find.

 

I would like to see alarms on boats as mandatory, without further delay. Even if they are not certified type and might not be fitted in the ideal position, they could save lives before BSS has specified what is required.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Thanks Rob. That makes very interesting reading. The link to the Hire Boat Code on your linked page is dead but the Code is easy to find.

 

 

Thanks for letting me know about that link. The MCA website another victim of the relentless culling of fairly useful government agency websites.

[AKULA]

im now at war with sterling its like talking to a brick wall the best of it is i bought it off charles himself