Electrical Wiring Query (230V)

[mark99]

Hoping an Electrical expert can help answer this.

 

This is my 230V selector switch.

 

 

You can see I can switch to 230V input from Shore Power input at front of boat (Shore 1)

 

Shore Power input at rear of boat (Shore 2)

 

or 230v Panda Generator (Generator).

 

Switch - it's a Kraus & Naimer with 12 connections clearly numbered 1-12.

 

I've traced out the wires using a multimeter and have knocked up a simple switch/wire connection diagram as below of Live (L) and Neutral (N) wires. (I've ignored the LED connections).

 

 

The question is what do the links between 12,8 and 6,2 do?

 

An image of a link (the black coloured hardwire strip) between 12,8 is is shown below.

Edited October 26, 2014 by mark99

[Black Country Lee]

Taking 6 & 2 (and 4 also if connected) as the example...

 

If Genny (1) is selected then it hits the RCDs through terminal 2, if you switch to Shore1 (5 not 6) it needs to get the power to the RCDs via terminal 2 hence the link. If Shore1 was connected to 6 then having the Genny or Shore2 live would create a live pin on the Shore1 socket.

 

I hope that made sense?

 

Lee.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Black Country Lee

[mark99]

Taking 6 & 2 (and 4 also if connected) as the example...

 

If Genny (1) is selected then it hits the RCDs through terminal 2, if you switch to Shore1 (5 not 6) it needs to get the power to the RCDs via terminal 2 hence the link. If Shore1 was connected to 6 then having the Genny or Shore2 live would create a live pin on the Shore1 socket.

 

I hope that made sense?

 

Lee.

 

 

Sort of Lee. Perhaps in even simpler terms would help.

 

The connection between 8 and 12...... is that relevant?

 

I guess I need the switch diagram from Krauss to understand fully.

[Black Country Lee]

8 to 12 is the neutral equivalent to 2 to 6 on the live side. Basically 1 through 6 are lives (+) and 7 through 12 are neutrals (-).

 

Simplest terms, just using the live side (+) you have inputs on 1, 3 and 5, outputs on 2, 4 and 6. If a current travels through 1 it is switched to either 2 (on) or 4 (off), 3 is either 2&4 or 4&6 dependent on the switch setup and 5 goes through 4 (off) or 6 (on). This is why pole 4 has no link as all 3 would be switched with a live returning to the other two otherwise. The same applies on the neutral (-) side.

 

I hope that's a bit clearer.

 

Lee.

[nicknorman]

I think it will be just down to the nature of the switch topography. You have a 2 pole 4 way (one of the ways being off) but rather than the common track extending to all 4 contacts, maybe it is split into 2 so the bridging links convert each pole to be effectively 4 way instead of 2 x 2 way. I suspect if you removed the links, one or two of the 3 positions would no longer work.

[by'eck]

K & N switches use a modular wafer build design onto a common switching shaft allowing off the shelf and custom builds to cover a huge range of requirements. I had a four pole three way one built by the importers to provide double pole break before make selection of three different AC sources, with the outlets limited when Inverter was selected.

 

Theoretically such a switch should have needed only 16 connections but I noted the connections were numbered 1 - 24. Can't recall exactly now but I believe the extra's related to the the modular design creating redundant terminals.

 

As Nick suggests I think this switch has been modified for purpose by using the straps since they shouldn't be needed, as a dedicated two pole four way switch would perform the task.

 

Given this, guessing may lead to tears or worse. If all is well suggest you leave alone. If you want to change the switching in any way you need to remove and check with a multimeter on continuity setting what switches what in each position.

[bizzard]

You must have very long arms to reach that switch from the other end of the boat.

[smileypete]

Can you get a part number off the switch? There's a data sheet on this page:

 

http://uk.farnell.com/krause-naimer/ca10a200/switch-rotary-cam/dp/7127145

 

It looks like MAY be a A261-620 (2 pole 3 way) The first common is 2 which switches between 1,5,3. The second common is 8 which switches between 9, 7, 11.

 

In that case it looks like the sketch MAY be incorrect, and contacts 5 and 6 are shown reversed to how they are actually connected, as it would make a lot more sense if 'Shore 1' was going to contact 6 instead of contact 5. The bridging links would then be redundant.

 

If the diagram was indeed correct then the genny and shoreline lives would be connected together at some point, which would be iffy to say the least!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited October 27, 2014 by smileypete

[jonathanA]

Surely if working fine leave alone ?

 

I'd suggest your diagram is wrong - more likely than blue sea getting it wrong

Edited October 26, 2014 by jonathanA

[mark99]

Thanks for help so far.

 

WHY THE QUESTION?

 

The switch is faulty (Genny 1 is not selecting 100%) and it's going to be replaced. I have emailed K+N with the part number (L 43596/003 A261 CA20 - 30 amp). Obviously to swap the switch, a map is helpful for who-ever does it.

 

 

IS WIRING DIAGRAM WRONG RE CONNECTION 5 and 6?

 

I can confirm the shore1 live IS connected to terminal 6 NOT 5, I have numerous photographs showing the wiring connections before I went anywhere near it confirming S1 live is connected to terminal 6 so the diagram is not incorrect in that sense. See image below - you can see Terminal 6 and that wire feeds in 230V when I connect shorepower 1 cable at front of boat with switch selected to Shore 1 and with multimeter connected to terminal 6 and 7 (neutral).

 

 

OBSERVATION

 

With this boat, if Shoreline 1 is connected and you switch selector switch to Genny before unplugging the shoreline power, it blows the marina power supply. I've had conflicting advice re this - some say there is something wrong with wiring, others suggest it's ok and you just got to make sure you unplug shorelines before using selector switch.

 

 

 

 

INTERIM WORK AROUND BAD GENNY SWITCH POSITION

 

In the interim to ensure I have genny power when cruising, I have disconnected shore 2 (terminals 3,11) and rewired the genny live (1) and genny neutral (9) into the shore 2 terminals (3,11) and just accept that I have to switch to "shore 2" before firing up genny. (The map drawn shows the wiring before the re-routing).

It is intended to have the wiring checked by a competent person - (just got to find one!).

 

FINALLY

 

For brevity, I did not draw up the live/neutral connections to the 230v voltmeter which come from the 230 feed into the consumer unit (connections 2 and 8) before someone asks what those wires are.

Edited October 27, 2014 by mark99

[nicknorman]

Seems Pete's prediction is correct! Are you sure Shore 1 L is connected to 6 not 5? If so, this seems to be a wiring mistake and certainly explains why the breaker blows, since shore 1 live is permanently connected into the breaker box. This has the additional really bad feature of making the shore socket live when the genny is in use.

 

Presuming the connection topography is as Pete describes - and it seems likely with that part number - you should install the new switch correctly with shore 1 live going to 5. I would get the new switch and check it out with a meter before installing it so that you are sure which terminal does what.

 

Presuming the switch is break before make, you should be able to switch to gennny with shore plugged in and vice versa, with impunity.

[mark99]

Seems to be falling into place - the explanation, the wiring diagram and what happens in reality (marina breakers firing)!

 

 

NB assuming I do a straight swap, BUT connect S1 Live into switch connection 5 - instead of 6, what do the links between 12,8 and 6,2 do? <in idiot terms plse>

Edited October 27, 2014 by mark99

[nicknorman]

Seems to be falling into place - the explanation, the wiring diagram and what happens in reality (marina breakers firing)!

 

 

NB assuming I do a straight swap, BUT connect S1 Live into switch connection 5 - instead of 6, what do the links between 12,8 and 6,2 do? <in idiot terms plse>

Nothing. Well I suppose they would allow you to connect more cables to the output of the switch. But since it has to go via the consumer unit, nothing in practice. Edited October 27, 2014 by nicknorman

[by'eck]

Maybe this will help in wiring replacement switch assuming its the same A261-600 that SmileyPete suggested.

 

 

Wiring depicted as actual physical switch orientation. You can also see switch spec/wiring on page 15 of this pdf document.

[mark99]

Cheers By-eck.

 

Another 2 questions (for my understanding not that there is an issue) - the boat has a Victron Multiplus/Charger.

 

1. Does the 230V (say from a shoreline) to feed the Multiplus (for the charger) go from the consumer unit straight to the Multiplus?
2. If the invertor is on (feeding 230V in with no shorepower or genny running) does this also route straight through the consumer unit.

Edited October 27, 2014 by mark99

[nicknorman]

Normally any sources of AC power would route through the combi. Therefore when you say the wires from this switch go to the consumer unit, they actually either go to the combi and then to the consumer unit, or they go to the consumer unit, then to the combi and then on to the consumer unit again (different breakers within the consumer unit). In our case we have no breakers until the consumer unit post-combi but I know some folk think there should be breakers before the Combi (I don't, and I am always right!). Also you might find some services are powered only from shore / genny (and not inverter) so they might be fed from breakers on the switch side of the consumer unit. Better to wire those services to the relevant output of the Combi but not everyone does that.

[mark99]

Ok Nick ta.

 

When I connect 230V shore or 230 genny, the 230V voltmeter kicks over telling me there is 230V at the consumer unit, but it takes about 10 seconds before the Victron charger lights up. So I'd assumed the 230 feed in goes via Consumer Unit.

Edited October 27, 2014 by mark99

[nicknorman]

Ok Nick ta.

 

When I connect 230V shore or 230 genny, the 230V voltmeter kicks over telling me there is 230V at the consumer unit, but it takes about 10 seconds before the Victron charger lights up. So I'd assumed the 230 feed in goes via Consumer Unit.

No that doesn't follow either way. The shore or genny is connected to the Combi either via a breaker in the consumer unit or direct. When the Victron detects the shore or genny power it "sniffs" it for a while to be sure it is good quality and persistent, then it decides to switch over from inverting to charging. Think of the delay as a means of stopping it chattering between charge and invert and you plug or unplug the shore socket or whilst the genny voltage and frequency stabilises. By contrast when the shore or genny is lost, it rapidly switches to inverting to avoid any significant loss of power to the services.

Edited October 27, 2014 by nicknorman

[by'eck]

FWIW this is the AC hookup on my boat which illustrates some of Nicks comments.

 

 

All incoming AC from shore socket is routed through an RCBO (combined current limiting breaker and RCD) in the consumer unit. It then feeds the second battery charger and immersion directly (since I want neither to be powered via the Combi's inverter) as well as the Combi itself.

 

After passing through the Combi the AC returns to the consumer unit and is distributed to the sockets via an RCD as required when inverter is powering the system. The dedicated breaker for washing machine allows this to be isolated if I wish.

Edited October 27, 2014 by by'eck

[mark99]

K+N phoned me to tell me the switch is identified as

 

CA20 A261 – 720 E

 

I've ordered a new one as a suitable replacement. I assume that with this I don't need the jumpers and I need to wire S1 correctly.

[by'eck]

No should be no need for jumpers.

 

Code CA20 A261 refers to switch with 25 amp contacts, two pole three way with off.

 

From what I can interpret the 720E suffix refers only to the face plate design and that its four hole mounting.

[mark99]

No should be no need for jumpers.

 

Code CA20 A261 refers to switch with 25 amp contacts, two pole three way with off.

 

From what I can interpret the 720E suffix refers only to the face plate design and that its four hole mounting.

 

 

Correct - that's what the chap said from K+N. He was also able to deduce it was sourced from the USA.

[mark99]

No should be no need for jumpers.

 

Code CA20 A261 refers to switch with 25 amp contacts, two pole three way with off.

 

From what I can interpret the 720E suffix refers only to the face plate design and that its four hole mounting.

 

 

Switch replacement just arrived. It come with two jumpers already connected (12,8) and (2,6). I assume I just undo these and set them aside. Again I assume these jumpers are provided with all switches to give you more stitching options if you need it.

[by'eck]

Switch replacement just arrived. It come with two jumpers already connected (12,8) and (2,6). I assume I just undo these and set them aside. Again I assume these jumpers are provided with all switches to give you more stitching options if you need it.

Seems a little bizarre. Either they are needed to make the modular design work or just redundant which seems the most likely. As you can see in the document linked to, contacts 6 & 12 don't exist for their 2 pole 3 step with off switch.

 

If you can confirm they are redundant strongly suggest you remove them.

[mark99]

I'm sure the links are required as part of architecture as I've used a multimeter just now to test all live and neutral switch positions including common live/neut and It all works ok. .... unless i remove links then it fails to work according to the switch diagram you drew out for me.

Edited October 30, 2014 by mark99