12V/240V Fit Out Install?

[Ali Bongo]

Im at the stage of installing my electrics system on board my 64ft narrowboat. I’m opting for both 12V and 240V, even though I predominantly intend to run as much of my power off the 12V supply, occasionally running the 240V when im connected up to shore power.

I don't have any experience with electrics and very minimal knowledge, so please any responses without being wrapped up in jargon or complex terminology would be very much appreciated.

Below is a list of the power consumption I plan to operate...

12V

1. 3 x Solar Panels (660W Total)
2. RCD Box
3. 6 x Leisure Batteries (110ah each)
4. Inverter (3000W) (STILL IN QUESTION AS ITS A BIG COST)

· Overhead Lighting - LED’s

· Fridge

· Laptops

· Phone Chargers

· Bilge Pumps x 3

· Sound System

· Shower Pump

· Computer Fans

· Nav Lights

 

 

240V

 

· Vacuum Cleaner

· Power Tools

· Lamps

 

 

 

Sockets

 

Lounge

 

• 2 x 240V sockets
• 4 x 12 V sockets

 

Kitchen

 

• 1 x 240V sockets
• 3 x 12V sockets

 

Bedroom

 

• 2 x 240V sockets
• 2 x 12V sockets

 

Study

 

• 1 x 240V socket
• 2 x 12V sockets

 

 

Questions

 

1. Can anyone provide a drawing of how this system would be wired in? Do you need any more details or information?
2. Do my power sources (inverter, solar panels & battery bank) reflect enough output to do deal with my appliances?
3. Do I need an inverter? I understand that it turns 240V into 12V, but is there any other way of doing this?
4. Is there any materials I have missed out? i.e. alternator
5. Is there any other way/suggestion to get electrics on my boat?

 

I understand there is alot of information here but I would appreciate any help/advice on any of these points.

[bottle]

I'll start, No 3 is back to front.

 

Probably not enough 240v in kitchen not because you will want to use them all at once just for convenience of connecting appliances.

 

Make all 240v sockets 'two gang' again not because you will use at the same time, just for convenience.

 

The inverter will supply 240v from your batteries, how do you plan to charge them?

 

If you only use 240v when on shoreline you do not need an inverter but a charger (3 stage) would be a good idea.

[Paul C]

 

Im at the stage of installing my electrics system on board my 64ft narrowboat. I’m opting for both 12V and 240V, even though I predominantly intend to run as much of my power off the 12V supply, occasionally running the 240V when im connected up to shore power.

 

I don't have any experience with electrics and very minimal knowledge, so please any responses without being wrapped up in jargon or complex terminology would be very much appreciated.

 

Below is a list of the power consumption I plan to operate...

 

12V

1. 3 x Solar Panels (660W Total)
2. RCD Box
3. 6 x Leisure Batteries (110ah each)
4. Inverter (3000W) (STILL IN QUESTION AS ITS A BIG COST)

 

· Overhead Lighting - LED’s

· Fridge

· Laptops

· Phone Chargers

· Bilge Pumps x 3

· Sound System

· Shower Pump

· Computer Fans

· Nav Lights

 

 

240V

 

· Vacuum Cleaner

· Power Tools

· Lamps

 

 

 

Sockets

 

Lounge

 

• 2 x 240V sockets
• 4 x 12 V sockets

 

Kitchen

 

• 1 x 240V sockets
• 3 x 12V sockets

 

Bedroom

 

• 2 x 240V sockets
• 2 x 12V sockets

 

Study

 

• 1 x 240V socket
• 2 x 12V sockets

 

 

Questions

 

1. Can anyone provide a drawing of how this system would be wired in? Do you need any more details or information?
2. Do my power sources (inverter, solar panels & battery bank) reflect enough output to do deal with my appliances?
3. Do I need an inverter? I understand that it turns 240V into 12V, but is there any other way of doing this?
4. Is there any materials I have missed out? i.e. alternator
5. Is there any other way/suggestion to get electrics on my boat?

 

I understand there is alot of information here but I would appreciate any help/advice on any of these points.

 

 

1. I could, but it would be quite a detailed design of how its all wired up. Hopefully others' might have their boat wiring diagrams (which would probably be similar) on file on their computers, or better still a detailed website exists showing wiring diagrams.

2. You'd need to clarify how much power each of your listed devices consume, and for how long per day they're running, to complete the power audit (but you're half way there). For example laptop use - laptops vary quite a lot in their power requirements etc.

3. An inverter turns 12V power into 230V AC and as such is a consumer (of 12V power). A battery charger, in addition to actually charging the batteries, will also act as a transformer converting 230V AC into usable 12V DC. They are available in various sizes.

4. You should include alternator in your power sources. I'm not sure what item 2 RCD box is, and you've not included a solar charge controller in the list. If you're having shoreline connection, then you'll also need a consumer unit (which typically contains RCD and MCB) or an equivalent on a control panel (or a device which does the 2 tasks in one device - an RCBO). Personally if doing electrics from scratch I'd also include an immersion heater element in the calorifier, if you have a shoreline connection. And I'd keep the lighting all 12V, no need for 230V lamps. Also, mobile phone chargers, camera battery chargers, etc etc lots of little things which probably don't use much power in total, but need considering eg for sizing the inverter. Microwave oven?

[Ali Bongo]

I'll start, No 3 is back to front.

 

Probably not enough 240v in kitchen not because you will want to use them all at once just for convenience of connecting appliances.

 

Make all 240v sockets 'two gang' again not because you will use at the same time, just for convenience.

 

The inverter will supply 240v from your batteries, how do you plan to charge them?

 

If you only use 240v when on shoreline you do not need an inverter but a charger (3 stage) would be a good idea.

 

Hey Bottle!

 

Thanks for getting back to me on this. See below for my responses...

 

No.3 is indeed back to front, my mistake.

 

I agree with there not being enough sockets in the kitchen, purely out of convenience makes sense.

 

I guess I plan to use a battery charger, will the one below suffice?

 

http://www.es-store.co.uk/product_details.php?product=BP-IP20-230V-12/015-GX1&description=Victron-Blue-Power-12V-15A-charger---IP20---single-output---230vac&cat_desc=-Victron-Bluepower-Chargers-(230v)---IP20---IP22&cat_id=82&show_menu=21&gclid=Cj0KEQjw-dSgBRDb0oOl9MzxqMEBEiQAkHqy-aELSKf4aG0H1H2aWpez2RdCKNGcMAZ3X4sFm79tt8AaAgb98P8HAQ

[bottle]

That will do nicely but may be a little small (amps).

 

Have a look here for the best advice/facts: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/chargesize.html

 

Remember that your shoreline will be 16 amps (if your lucky) about 3.5 Kw max power.

 

For the 240v Do not use domestic (house) cable, it needs to be multi strand, example: Screwfix

 

you may know all this, just a heads up.

[Paul G2]

Just in case you don't know, never use solid core wire on a boat, always use stranded wire. (The vibration can break the solid stuff.) Decide on the cooker/range/oven you want and see what voltage the ignitors are. You might need a 230V circuit behind the range. Don't forget to run a switched 12V line up front for your tunnel light.

 

That's all I've got. Good luck!

 

eta Looks like bottle types faster than me.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Paul G2

[Pykebird]

You can never have too many plug sockets!!! And make sure your light switches are two way so you can turn on and off as you walk down the boat.

Edited September 14, 2014 by pykebird

[Ali Bongo]

 

1. I could, but it would be quite a detailed design of how its all wired up. Hopefully others' might have their boat wiring diagrams (which would probably be similar) on file on their computers, or better still a detailed website exists showing wiring diagrams.

2. You'd need to clarify how much power each of your listed devices consume, and for how long per day they're running, to complete the power audit (but you're half way there). For example laptop use - laptops vary quite a lot in their power requirements etc.

3. An inverter turns 12V power into 230V AC and as such is a consumer (of 12V power). A battery charger, in addition to actually charging the batteries, will also act as a transformer converting 230V AC into usable 12V DC. They are available in various sizes.

4. You should include alternator in your power sources. I'm not sure what item 2 RCD box is, and you've not included a solar charge controller in the list. If you're having shoreline connection, then you'll also need a consumer unit (which typically contains RCD and MCB) or an equivalent on a control panel (or a device which does the 2 tasks in one device - an RCBO). Personally if doing electrics from scratch I'd also include an immersion heater element in the calorifier, if you have a shoreline connection. And I'd keep the lighting all 12V, no need for 230V lamps. Also, mobile phone chargers, camera battery chargers, etc etc lots of little things which probably don't use much power in total, but need considering eg for sizing the inverter. Microwave oven?

 

See my responses below...

 

1. I'll try and source this online, no issue.

 

2. How do I work out how much my appliances use? Is this called current draw? e.g. Laptop Chargers x 2 - 3.65 A each for 8 hours per day = 58.4 A per day???

 

3. Ah so I can use a battery charger to convert 230V into 12V?

 

4. In terms of an alternator can I use a 12V one to charge my battery bank? Instead of a generator? I've also got a diesel generated heater that needs the engine running to heat up water for my calorifier, I guess I can then run the engine for both elec and water? I do have a solar charge controller, I forgot to mention that. I also have an immersion heater in my calorifier. Sure I guess just using the 12V LED I plan to put in will be enough, no need for lamps. I wont be having a microwave oven, we'll be using an LPG gas oven.

[kevinl]

You can never have too many plug sockets!!! And make sure your light switches are two way so you can turn on and off as you walk down the boat.

Agreed, it'll only cost a few quid to put them in now, you don't want to be constantly swapping plus over or using extension leads plus it will, if not add to the value be a sales point.

K

[smileypete]

Probably worth getting hold of a book or two on boat fitting out in general and boat electrics in particular, also worth a look at the course notes on the Tony Brooks training site and the other pages on the Smartgauge website.

 

Also trawl past topics using the Forum (search set to forums not topic), and pick the likeliest looking topics returned, some key phrases to get helpful results would be:

 

"shore inlet"

"garage consumer unit"

"galvanic isolator"

"arctic cable"

"radial"

"bootlace ferrule"

"battery cable"

"inverter cable"

"welding cable"

"power audit"

"lined heatshrink"

"mega fuse"

"midi fuse"

"fuse board"

"blade fuse"

"trirated"

"ratchet crimper"

"amps divided by"

 

Also the links in my sig below go to a somewhat organised list of topics.

 

After some time spent background reading, best come back and ask specific questions, ideally make some sort of diagram and list of parts and post them back.

 

Hate to be a bit of a naysayer, but it's easy to underestimate the time and effort to acquire the knowledge and skills to do a decent job, but it can be done.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited September 15, 2014 by smileypete

[Grace and Favour]

Your battery charger should be able to provide about/at least 10% of your battery bank.

 

So, as you battery bank will be 660Ah, your charger should ideally be rated at least 65A.

 

And what about your starter battery/bowthruster battery (if fitted), you need to include those in your calculations

[Alan de Enfield]

 

4. In terms of an alternator can I use a 12V one to charge my battery bank? Instead of a generator? I've also got a diesel generated heater that needs the engine running to heat up water for my calorifier,

 

Do you mean a diesel fired (powered) heater - is it a blown air system or does it heat the water/radiators ?

 

You shouldn't need to run the diesel heater AND the engine to heat the water, either should do it.

[by'eck]

To the OP - just some general comments since to answer all your questions would take a thick book.

Seek expert help when wiring your boat. Route wires neatly in ducting, under the gunnel being a useful place. If it looks neat it will more likely to be safe. Use appropriate cross section multi-strand cables for the DC wiring although recommend 10mm² cable for the 12 volt fridge since they have high start up currents. Use 2.5mm² Arctic cable for the AC wiring. Avoid the slightest possibility of chaffing of wires if they run through bulkheads, with split rubber hose around cable groups.

 

Consider this when connecting batteries together and taking power from them. Consider having DC positive and negative distribution busbars. As the wiring evolves adding extra battery feeds/connections is made easier as well as neater. Provide battery isolators in the positive fed from each battery (bank or single).

 

Ensure the battery negative and engine block are connected to the boat hull with a single strap. Ensure the common AC wiring earth is also connected to the hull with a separate single strap. Ensure all circuits are fused (or equivalent circuit breaker), possible exceptions being short alternator and starter cable runs.

 

RCD box - The abbreviation in this context usually refers to residual current device, an AC mains safety trip to save your life should you come into contact with live mains, and definitely not a DC device. I suspect you meant an mppt controller to get the best out of your solar panels since it was listed below them.

 

I would have more AC sockets in the kitchen.

 

You ideally need a mains battery charger as well to use when shore power is available. Solar panels may not be up to the job of keeping batteries fully charged regularly during the winter, and depending on your DC consumption.

 

Following on from above, if you do decide on an inverter and only you can answer this, I would suggest a Combi (combined charger/inverter) which will simplify the wiring as well as automatically charging batteries when shore power available and providing AC power from batteries when not.

 

Your DC consumption figures are best expressed in amp hours (Ah) which is also what your battery capacity is expressed in, i.e. a device drawing 8 amps for 6 hours would consume 48 Ah of battery capacity. With your intended battery bank I would suggest you do your power audit assuming only 330 Ah of battery capacity to play with. Its not set in stone but for reasonable leisure battery life charging generally on or before batteries reach a 50% state of charge (SOC) is recommended.

 

You mention alternator. Most modern boat engines come equipped with one or more to provide battery charging when cruising. There are devices the TravelPower being the most popular, that provide AC mains directly from a dedicated engine alternator but as these are generally more expensive than the battery feeding inverter option you may wish to dismiss.

 

Finally I can't stress enough the importance of fully charging batteries regularly if you want their life to be expressed in years not months.

 

 

 

 

 

[Murflynn]

wot he said, and keep 240 and 12V separated by a reasonable distance.