Opinions on cheap small nb

[Proud Salopian]

I fancy a basic canal run-about and I'm looking to buy a cheap (£10-15k) small (20-30ft) nb.

 

Priorities are: 1. hull condition ("will it float?") and 2. engine ("does it move?") (ie I'm not too fussy about looks or the interior.)

 

Have seen a few likely candidates on Apollo Duck, but they're with outboard motors, which I'm not too keen on - would prefer inboard & diesel.

 

Anyway - have seen this...

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=381700

 

http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/all-steel-narrowboat-20ft-balladore/1077749223

 

Obvious immediate concern is the hull age/condition (liability in the coming years?) but also I'm not an expert on engines, so what are opinions on that too?

 

Any tips appreciated! And of course if anyone can point me in the direction of a suitable boat (perhaps one seen 'for sale' on the cut).

Edited September 3, 2014 by Proud Salopian

[Tony Brooks]

Boat 1 - Some/many engine spares for Kingfishers are very difficult to source or even impossible now the importer and at least one successor has gone broke. A sterndrive (Z drive) is not in my view the best arrangement for canal use. A shaft drive woudl in my view be better.

 

Boat 2 - See comment on Kingfisher engines above.

[Proud Salopian]

Ah, thanks for the info - thought there was a catch!

 

btw, the two links I posted are for the same boat... just the gumtree advert has more photos.

[kevinl]

It's not the best value for money I've seen but it looks like a sound little boat, however, 20 feet with 6 feet headroom is tiny and there doesn't seem to be a woodburner or any sort of heating so it's a summer only boat pretty much. I think you can get more for your money than this.

K

Like this

http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=381869

Edited September 3, 2014 by kevinl

[Proud Salopian]

I saw that advert but I'm a little wary that it is completely silent as to hull condition/any recent maintenance to it. Would need a survey etc.

[Naughty Cal]

I saw that advert but I'm a little wary that it is completely silent as to hull condition/any recent maintenance to it. Would need a survey etc.

I would recommend you get at least a hull survey on any boat you are considering.

 

Without being rude you are looking at the lower end of the market where maintenance becomes costly when compared to the value of the boat. Some owners, but by no means all, start to become a bit lax with their maintenance schedules at this end of the market.

[kevinl]

I saw that advert but I'm a little wary that it is completely silent as to hull condition/any recent maintenance to it. Would need a survey etc.

Any boat at this end of the market unless it has changed hands recently is unlikely to have a survey. Any survey not done by you is worthless anyway as you have no comeback. In this price range all you can do is look and go with your instinct, if someone immaculately maintains the boat inside and out why would they neglect the hull. If it looks right then get a survey and if needed blacked and anodes while it's out of the water.

K

[Athy]

As a point of comparison, a 26 foot Springer, sound overplated hull, common make of engine (Thornycroft) in good running order, newly blacked and painted, new anodes, solid fuel stove, just sold for £9,500. That's about typical for this type of boat, so I too think you could do better for your money than the one which you are considering.

 

 

(How do I know this? It was my boat!)

[Proud Salopian]

As a point of comparison, a 26 foot Springer, sound overplated hull, common make of engine (Thornycroft) in good running order, newly blacked and painted, new anodes, solid fuel stove, just sold for £9,500. That's about typical for this type of boat, so I too think you could do better for your money than the one which you are considering.

 

 

(How do I know this? It was my boat!)

 

Well if I can find such a boat for such a price I'd take it!

[MtB]

Any boat at this end of the market unless it has changed hands recently is unlikely to have a survey. Any survey not done by you is worthless anyway as you have no comeback. In this price range all you can do is look and go with your instinct, if someone immaculately maintains the boat inside and out why would they neglect the hull. If it looks right then get a survey and if needed blacked and anodes while it's out of the water.

K

 

 

A common misunderstanding. All surveys are worthless in this respect, as you have no comeback regardless of who commissions them.

 

What you DO get with a survey though, is a survey! I.e. an experienced professional looking at the boat in detail and providing you with his or her findings along with some comments and opinions.

 

No comeback if they miss something, but you load the dice in your favour by getting one.

 

 

MtB

Edited September 3, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[Athy]

Have a look on "Apollo Duck Narrowboats" in your favourite search engine. They have separate sections for different makes of boat, listed down the left side of the page. There are currently about 40 Springers for sale including several in your price and size range.

[kevinl]

 

A common misunderstanding. All surveys are worthless in this respect, as you have no comeback regardless of who commissions them.

 

What you DO get with a survey though, is a survey! I.e. an experienced professional looking at the boat in detail and providing you with his or her findings along with some comments and opinions.

No comeback if they miss something, but you load the dice in your favour by getting one.

 

MtB

I'm not saying you're wrong Mike but until someone goes to court and tests it we'll never know. I think you have an excellent case for suing under the unfair terms in contracts 1999 specifically "a term saying the trader is not responsible if they don't do what they should do under the contract". If I contract you to survey a boat and you miss something significant then you are in clear breach of contract and as such can be sued irrespective of anything in the contract to the contrary, it just need testing that's all, I'd be confident of a win if it was me. Where the survey was commissioned and paid for by a previous owner I doubt you would be able to do anything without their cooperation.

K

[Proud Salopian]

Have a look on "Apollo Duck Narrowboats" in your favourite search engine. They have separate sections for different makes of boat, listed down the left side of the page. There are currently about 40 Springers for sale including several in your price and size range.

 

Oh I'm keeping a close eye on good old Apollo Duck! Trouble I'm getting is that quite a few of the good-looking Springers (and other makes) have petrol outboard motors, which I'm not too keen on.

 

This has just been posted, which is "different"!

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=166716

 

Thoughts on this boat / the dealer?

Edited September 3, 2014 by Proud Salopian

[Athy]

It's an old Harborough Marine, probably an ex-hire boat judging by those bumpers which are called bridge bars (hire companies used to think that all hirers would bash the superstructure of their boats into bridges and thus fitted these so that they would bounce off.)

So far so good.

BUT those bars were needed because the boat had a relatively fragile wooden or GRP superstructure, as this one has. They are reputed to leak in their later life. If you see any signs of damp inside the boat, run like hell.

I have no experience of the sellers but they are a known name.

 

Yes, I would avoid petrol-powered boats. Safe fuel storage is a problem, and not all canalside boatyards sell petrol.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Athy

[Proud Salopian]

Hmm 'ex-hire' puts me off!

 

This boat, out of the water (should make any surveying easier/cheaper I presume?), seems like a good idea, but £17k is a little expensive for me:

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=349246

 

http://www.newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boat.php?boatID=422 (the dealers' website)

 

What could I reasonably offer for it? Would an offer of £14k result in me being turfed out the yard?

Edited September 3, 2014 by Proud Salopian

[kevinl]

The fridge, toilet and fire would all need replacing from the look of it and has a wood/GRP roof not steel. It is a bit of a blank canvas but it's not bad for the price if GRP and pumpout aren't a problem to you.

K

[Proud Salopian]

The fridge, toilet and fire would all need replacing from the look of it and has a wood/GRP roof not steel. It is a bit of a blank canvas but it's not bad for the price if GRP and pumpout aren't a problem to you.

K

 

Are you referring to the Harborough (probable ex-hire) boat? (I posted yet another boat, just before you posted this!)

Edited September 3, 2014 by Proud Salopian

[kevinl]

Hmm 'ex-hire' puts me off!

 

This boat, out of the water (should make any surveying easier/cheaper I presume?), seems like a good idea, but £17k is a little expensive for me:

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=349246

 

http://www.newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boat.php?boatID=422 (the dealers' website)

 

What could I reasonably offer for it? Would an offer of £14k result in me being turfed out the yard?

I looked at this one on Duck recently, the fire and flue are a bit close to the wood work I think and I can't see any mention of it having a safety certificate so! Other than that I think someone's spent a lot of money and are trying to get it back, I'd be inclined to wait and see if they get a reality check on the price, or go take a look and register an interest without making an offer and see if they come back to you, but find out about the BSS.

K

[Athy]

What, pray, is a Lister Petter AC2? This beast is unknown to me. Presumably it's a modern engine.

[Proud Salopian]

I looked at this one on Duck recently, the fire and flue are a bit close to the wood work I think and I can't see any mention of it having a safety certificate so! Other than that I think someone's spent a lot of money and are trying to get it back, I'd be inclined to wait and see if they get a reality check on the price, or go take a look and register an interest without making an offer and see if they come back to you, but find out about the BSS.

K

 

Thanks. I noticed the lack of a BSS. Perhaps one to keep an eye on and see if the price drops. In any case, it's a bit long - I don't want to end up paying vast mooring fees!

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm not saying you're wrong Mike but until someone goes to court and tests it we'll never know.............

 

Many years ago, bought a boat - £60,000 - paid well over £1000 for a Hull and machinery survey. Passed with flying colours - no advisories - valued at more that the selling price.

 

Bought boat

 

2 weeks later on a lengthy sea voyage had huge engine problems, both turbo's 'exploded', gear box troubles etc etc.

Cost over £20,000 to fix.

 

Started legal action against the surveyor, my solicitor eventually 'refused' to go to court becuase we would be wasting my money. The "get out" clauses were so tied up that their was no liabilty at all on the surveyor.

Example :-

Survey only valid on day of survey.

Nothing that cannot be seen or accessed without tools or dissasembly can be commented on

 

When questioned why on a 'machinery survey' the oil in the gearbox had not been checked - the answer was, it needed a spanner to remove the dip-stick. "Nothing is accessed or viewed that needs tools" and so on and so on.

 

Thats why they never get to court & and thats why I have never had a survey since.

 

If you dont have a survey, you dont know whats wrong with it and it goes on working and floating for years and years and you dont worry.

It won't sink until the metal thickness gets to 0.0mm

 

The way to buy a boat is, roll up with an Aldi (other brands will do) carrier bag of cash, pay the man and drive off into the sunset.

The higher the price the more impressive the pile of cash looks, and the bigger the incentive to do a deal.

 

You do need to plan ahead as the bank can get a bit twitchy when you ask them for £50,000 in £20 notes.

[RLWP]

Hmm 'ex-hire' puts me off!

 

Steady!

 

You'll find hire boats were built and equipped to a good standard in the first place and are very easy to maintain. Don't be quick to dismiss them out of hand, many owner fit outs will be far worse than any hire boat

 

I'm getting quite fond of the old Harborough boats (and not all were hire boats), they swim beautifully

 

Richard

[kevinl]

 

Are you referring to the Harborough (probable ex-hire) boat? (I posted yet another boat, just before you posted this!)

Sorry yes the Harborough. Ex hire is good, they're usually well made and set up to be easy to maintain it's not in a hire boat companies best interest to use anything that will give them problems and a lot are blacked every year, I'd happily buy an ex hire boat (but not an ex hire car). If this boat didn't have a GRP roof I bet it would be 4-5K more.

K

[RLWP]

What, pray, is a Lister Petter AC2? This beast is unknown to me. Presumably it's a modern engine.

 

 

Not particularly modern, or big - 12HP

 

Built in the 1980's?

 

Richard

[MtB]

I'm not saying you're wrong Mike but until someone goes to court and tests it we'll never know. I think you have an excellent case for suing under the unfair terms in contracts 1999 specifically "a term saying the trader is not responsible if they don't do what they should do under the contract". If I contract you to survey a boat and you miss something significant then you are in clear breach of contract and as such can be sued irrespective of anything in the contract to the contrary, it just need testing that's all, I'd be confident of a win if it was me. Where the survey was commissioned and paid for by a previous owner I doubt you would be able to do anything without their cooperation.

K

 

But how do we know it hasn't been tested in court? I'd have thought there were thousands of unhappy surveyors' customers who think their surveyor should have spotted something he missed. It's in the nature of the surveying business. You can't spot EVERYTHING wrong with a boat (or a house) EVERY single time through a whole career. If surveyors couldn't protect themselves from the occasional oversight or clash of opinion they'd all find other occupations pretty damned quick I suggest.

 

But even if you're right I suggest it is not a good idea to imply people booking surveys have a 'comeback' against the surveyor, when this is clearly very much in doubt.

 

 

MtB