Still eatng batteries?

[nicknorman]

Is it really as clear cut as that?

 

With the number of sets of batteries they have killed in such a short space of time with what appears to be a decent charging regime I dont think it can be!

 

If it was a case of faulty batteries you would expect more people to pop up saying they have also had problems with the same ones.

 

I dont know what the solution is but I'm not convinced that switching to more expensive batteries is necessarily the right course of action. You can still kill expensive batteries........

I hear what you say but unlike so many questioners on here, the OP seems to be fully cogniscant of the issues of charging, monitoring and consumption. He is having similar issues to me, albeit a little faster, the solution to which (for me) seems to have been to change to semi-traction batteries.

 

His current battery set is certainly not dead yet but as a result of his comprehensive monitoring he is already noticing a downward path. Other users, not interested in monitoring, would likely continue in blissful ignorance until the lights went dim in a year's time.

 

Probably, an equalise charge will restore things for a while but if my experience is mirrored, they will be dead within a year of daily use.

 

But my main disagreement with you is your implication that switching to Trojans is a more expensive option. No doubt deals can be had but Varta leisure batteries seem pretty close to Trojans in price, around £100 each. With a Trojan you seem to get a totally different type of battery (not a rebadged starter battery) for a similar price.

[by'eck]

Limekiln Chandlers in Stourport were still offering three Numax 110 Ah leisure batteries for £200. I call that a lot cheaper than the best deal on Trojan T105's.

[nicknorman]

Limekiln Chandlers in Stourport were still offering three Numax 110 Ah leisure batteries for £200. I call that a lot cheaper than the best deal on Trojan T105's.

Yes but the OP doesn't have Numax, he has Vartas which seem quite a bit more expensive.

 

So my point is that if you are going to pay for a premium brand of leisure batteries, you could get Trojans for a similar price.

Edited August 8, 2014 by nicknorman

[Naughty Cal]

Yes but the OP doesn't have Numax, he has Vartas which seem quite a bit more expensive.

 

So my point is that if you are going to pay for a premium brand of leisure batteries, you could get Trojans for a similar price.

You can get deals on Vartas as well. In May this year we paid £150 for a pair of Varta Professional 105's.

 

You just need to shop around. We use South Yorkshire Battery Services as they are usually far cheaper than any online deals.

[ditchcrawler]

My Trojans are now 4 years old, I have abused them (lack of water, I had to put a liter of water in each one ) but they are still performing a lot better than I could have hoped for.

[Keeping Up]

For various reasons I was lucky enough to be offered my 4 Varta 110s for £200 so I couldn't resist them. Although the importer told me that Varta recommend 14.4 volts, I have my doubts. I still reckon it's the calcium's fault, I've never had a bad non-calcium battery, including 2 sets of the original Elecsols, and I've never yet had a calcium battery I liked. It's there to reduce gassing, but the gassing seems to be beneficial and with open cells it is not difficult to replace the lost fluid, and the only solution seems to be the use of higher voltages. Since this year's cruising for us will be relatively short, only about another 4 or 5 weeks after which there's a shore line, and a couple of weeks cruising later on so I think I'll just monitor carefully and build myself a clip-on equaliser gadget during the winter.

 

Oh and yes the drop to 13.3 is slow under modest loads, I'm just a little surprised that by that point it has reached the slower rate that seems constant from then onwards where I would have expected them to have got much nearer to 12.8 before that happened.

[by'eck]

Some of the best batteries I've used have been of lead/calcium construction. They can be charged at up to 15.1 volts in absorb mode and always display the same (good IMO) characteristic of a very low current draw once fully charged. I would consider 14.8 volts as the minimum charge voltage though even if sealed type.

[Naughty Cal]

For various reasons I was lucky enough to be offered my 4 Varta 110s for £200 so I couldn't resist them. Although the importer told me that Varta recommend 14.4 volts, I have my doubts. I still reckon it's the calcium's fault, I've never had a bad non-calcium battery, including 2 sets of the original Elecsols, and I've never yet had a calcium battery I liked. It's there to reduce gassing, but the gassing seems to be beneficial and with open cells it is not difficult to replace the lost fluid, and the only solution seems to be the use of higher voltages. Since this year's cruising for us will be relatively short, only about another 4 or 5 weeks after which there's a shore line, and a couple of weeks cruising later on so I think I'll just monitor carefully and build myself a clip-on equaliser gadget during the winter.

 

Oh and yes the drop to 13.3 is slow under modest loads, I'm just a little surprised that by that point it has reached the slower rate that seems constant from then onwards where I would have expected them to have got much nearer to 12.8 before that happened.

Just looked at the Varta website and they do recommend 14.4V for their flooded cell and 14.8V for their AGM batteries.

[Paul C]

No there's no solar.

 

Yes the shunt IS directly connected on its own to the negative.

 

The battery leads are to the diagonally opposite corners, batteries 1 and 4.

 

The interconnects are not all the same size and length because one of the batteries is sideways on, but in fact the sizes are deliberately tailored after careful calculations so that the bank is extremely well balanced, for example the ones nearest the take off are thicker.

 

I'm measuring at about the same time. There may be an hour's variation but that wouldnt make much difference. I also glance at the meter every day when I get up, of course it's under 2a load but the downward trend is still evident.

 

The fridge setting is OK, and I would expect the Ah figure to show if it was misbehaving. It is full (of food and drink, not lighted candles!)

 

I'd be surprised if it's a duff cell, after the number of sets of batteries that have behaved in the same way, but maybe I'll try the hydrometer in all 24 cells before I start the engine, it's not too difficult and could be revealing.

 

Have you tried disconnecting the battery interconnects and testing each battery individually yet?

[Keeping Up]

Have you tried disconnecting the battery interconnects and testing each battery individually yet?

Yes, when I measured the SGs of all 24 cells and found them to be about the same, that was something to occupy me for the hour while they settled. The 4 batteries were all at identical voltages at the end of the hour, to within the limits of accuracy of my Fluke.

[Paul C]

OK Try turning off and isolating the battery bank for as long as you can (Ideally a day) during which you can monitor the voltage at hourly intervals. If there is a battery problem, the voltage will drop over time. If there is a current leak of some kind, the batteries will remain at the same (or very similar) voltage but will drop if/when connected to the boat's electrics.

[Keeping Up]

I don't think Pingu will be happy if I suggest turning the electrics off for a day.

 

There is absolutely no possibility of a current leak by-passing the shunt, which is only 3" from the negative terminal inside a nice clean batterybox, and I don't think the BM2 is failing to notice the current that passes through the shunt. I did wonder if the inverter was taking its current in spikes that might not be noticed, but it seems to include a low-pass filter of some sort, aand anyway the current agrees with both my digital Fluke and my analogue Avo8. But even if there was an unexplained leak (eg if I had accidentally connected a 15 watt bulb acrosas one of the batteries) I can't see that it would have caused these symptoms unless the leakage was continually increasing every day.

 

When the batteries were new, before putting them on the boat I left them on charge for a week on my Ctek charger before leaving them for 2 weeks and checking their voltage and SG. At that time, which was after all only just over a month ago, there was no internal leakage and the only odd feature was that the SG when fully charged was only just over 1250 in all cells; but then it was the same on the previous 8 calcium Vartas (noty on the non-calcium ones I had before) andI don't think the symptoms indicate a subsequent failure.

[smileypete]

What's the model/part # of the latest batts, could they be calcium ones too?

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[Keeping Up]

Yes they're calcium ones (Varta Hobby 110 Ah)

[Paul C]

I don't think Pingu will be happy if I suggest turning the electrics off for a day.

 

 

I can't think of anything else which might be the cause, or any other tests to do. The only thing I can think of is to double check the current and voltage readings using a different meter/instrument, but its not really anything but clutching at straws. In any case, I'll watch this thread with interest because I'm keen to know what the final outcome is.

[Naughty Cal]

Yes they're calcium ones (Varta Hobby 110 Ah)

Have you contacted Varta and asked them their opinion?

[smileypete]

Have you contacted Varta and asked them their opinion?

 

Reading a couple of prior topics, it would seem that way:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=38799

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=45250

 

If the batts can only be charged from an alt, and with a voltage of ~14.4V, I'd only recommend non-sealed non-calcium bog standard leisure batts, or even comparable truck batts. Not saying calciums won't work OK in those circumstance, especially with light use or shallow discharges, but I wouldn't put money on it.

 

As Nick suggests, what may help Keeping Up's batts is to do some careful eq charging with a current limited supply like a bench supply or even something based on a smallish solar panel.

 

Summing up, I'd say the best overall ways to use the three main types are:

 

• Calcium leisures, (usually sealed): Long term shoreline use with unattended high power charger (norty but happens), especially if charger capable of 14.8V
• Semi-tractions: Off grid liveaboard or frequent use, but only where owner can charge at the right voltages and do the required eq. charging.
• Non calcium leisures (always non sealed): Everything else, pretty much

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited August 9, 2014 by smileypete

[Keeping Up]

Varta don't seem particularly interested in talking direct, only through the UK importer. Luckily I had them changed by the importers under guarantee twice, even though (or maybe because) they admitted they nothing about the technical side of things.

 

It is becoming extremely difficult to find any battery that doesn't use an additive such as calcium.

 

I had hoped the problems would go away, changing from the old 14.4v with Adverc to the 14.6v of the new Beta setup, but it seems I was being overoptimistic.

[smileypete]

Well, I wouldn't buy any more sealed batts, or Vartas!

 

Looks like Richard on here had the same problem earlier this year:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65303

 

If they can only be charged with ~14.4V, maybe try el cheapo non sealed leisures, or the pricy but top quality Banner leisure batts (Austrian made).

 

Thing is the latter work out the same as Trojans, but Trojans call for higher charging and eq. voltages.

 

Would be interesting find out the gassing voltage of the Vartas actually is, might give some clues to their makeup.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[Keeping Up]

Just a snippet of an update with some figures that I find interesting.

 

After regularly seeing a morning voltage that seemed to have stabilised at about 12.2v following my usual 60 Ah discharge or thereabouts, I had to leave the boat for a day with Pingu watching lots of TV etc. To my surprise a further 100 Ah of usage, ie to 160Ah, had resulted in less than 0.1v of further voltage reduction to 12.1v. Following a good recharge their performance was noticeably improved and continued to be so, although a slight decline started to show after about a week.

 

In the last 2 days I have again given them a larger discharge than usual, and after 150 Ah discharge then 5 minutes rest they showed 12.25v. I am now recharging them.

 

I'm beginning to think that maybe these batteries do enjoy a bit of exercise after all.

[Keeping Up]

Now that we're back on our mooring I have been able to start doing some more tests. Their capacity has continued to decline while we have cruised.

 

First - if I switch off the master switch and leave them for a couple of days, they are all showing around 13.2 volts. So there is no self-discharge or hidden discharge.

 

Second - their SG when they apparently fully charged (ie taking less than 1A at 14.6v) is less than 1200 in all cells. There is naturally some variation but every cell is in the range 1180 to 1200. To me that looks like severe sulphation.

 

Third - they are too damned good at pretending to be OK. So the Ctek charger which includes a "desulphation" cycle as the first stage of charging, steps straight over that stage believing that it is not needed; similarly when set to its "Restore" setting which gives 15.5v, it terminates that stage after its minimum of just 30 minutes instead of continuing with it. Again presumably it reckons it isn't needed. Having done this now 3 times - which takes a while because it spends an hour each time charging at 14.4 first - I have managed to increase the SG of just one battery by maybe 10 points (hard to tell accurately on my cheap Chinese hydrometer). At this rate it would take weeks to restore the SG, with me needing to be in close attendance the whole time.

 

So the idea of a separate, dedicated equaliser now looks increasingly attractive. As Nick points out I have mains available (even when cruising I could run on 3 batteries and use the inverter to provide power to work on the 4th battery) but I don't have a suitable bench supply or similar source of the required charging voltage. Although I could build something during the winter, does anyone have a unit going spare that would save me the trouble, or can recommend a good but cheap unit that I can purchase?

[Paul C]

Now that we're back on our mooring I have been able to start doing some more tests. Their capacity has continued to decline while we have cruised.

 

First - if I switch off the master switch and leave them for a couple of days, they are all showing around 13.2 volts. So there is no self-discharge or hidden discharge.

 

Second - their SG when they apparently fully charged (ie taking less than 1A at 14.6v) is less than 1200 in all cells. There is naturally some variation but every cell is in the range 1180 to 1200. To me that looks like severe sulphation.

 

Third - they are too damned good at pretending to be OK. So the Ctek charger which includes a "desulphation" cycle as the first stage of charging, steps straight over that stage believing that it is not needed; similarly when set to its "Restore" setting which gives 15.5v, it terminates that stage after its minimum of just 30 minutes instead of continuing with it. Again presumably it reckons it isn't needed. Having done this now 3 times - which takes a while because it spends an hour each time charging at 14.4 first - I have managed to increase the SG of just one battery by maybe 10 points (hard to tell accurately on my cheap Chinese hydrometer). At this rate it would take weeks to restore the SG, with me needing to be in close attendance the whole time.

 

So the idea of a separate, dedicated equaliser now looks increasingly attractive. As Nick points out I have mains available (even when cruising I could run on 3 batteries and use the inverter to provide power to work on the 4th battery) but I don't have a suitable bench supply or similar source of the required charging voltage. Although I could build something during the winter, does anyone have a unit going spare that would save me the trouble, or can recommend a good but cheap unit that I can purchase?

 

If you're convinced they're sulphated (I guess from the SG readings, thats what has occurred) do you know WHY they became like this? And has whatever caused that been eliminated?

[nicknorman]

We have had 2 sets of wet cheapo leisure batteries on Telemachus. After the first set dropped to 50% capacity in less than a year I replaced them with same. We normally cruise 7 or 8 hours per day every day, the batteries are on shore power float when left in the marina. Alternator is a big 175A job, regulates to 14.5 - 14.6v. Nevertheless the new set showed signs of sulphation in under 6 months of non-liveaboard use. Belting them with 15.5v for just an hour or two restored them back to original capacity, but the cycle repeated and they needed equalising with increasing frequency until at 2 years they were dying - didn't take charge easily and capacity was down to 50% and unresponsive to equalising. I concluded that it was a fine balance between equalising to get capacity back, vs shedding plate material.

Anyway, had our wonderful Trojans for 6 months now, they are still at rated capacity or even a little more, I have yet to equalise them significantly (I did give them a brief equalise the other day but it wasn't really necessary, I did it more to see whether the current would be significantly more than calcium-rich leisures (it wasn't)).

 

So I'm sold!

[nicknorman]

Although I could build something during the winter, does anyone have a unit going spare that would save me the trouble, or can recommend a good but cheap unit that I can purchase?

I have a couple, but sorry they are not going spare! I looks like you could get one from ebay for around £60. 5A will be sufficient, less if you are prepared to do a battery at a time.

[Keeping Up]

 

If you're convinced they're sulphated (I guess from the SG readings, thats what has occurred) do you know WHY they became like this? And has whatever caused that been eliminated?

 

I only wish I did know why. The engine, the alternator, and the wiring, are all new. They always get fully charged every day and never get excessively discharged. The only thing that is in common with 2 sets of 4 previous batteries that have performed in exactly the same way is the manufacturer (Varta) and that detail will certainly be eliminated when I next buy batteries