The Rules...

[Supermalc]

With the recent talk of etiquette, I thought it might be an idea for a reminder of the rules.

 

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/subje...187559/?lang=_e

 

I had an unfortunate incident a couple of years ago, partly my own fault, a little through inexperience, but mainly because I was being too courteous.

 

It was my first time on the tidal Trent going from Torksey to Newark. It was August bank holiday and fairly busy for around here. Approaching Dunholme Bridge I came up to a longish NB. There was plenty of room, and I thought (rightly) that I had time to pass before we got to the bridge. There were no other boats in sight.

 

But before I was clear of the NB, a cruiser came up from behind going quickly. I gave him plenty of room to pass, and accelerated to get clear before the bridge, even coming on the radio to thank me afterwards, however I had deliberately gone close to the NB.

 

I was of course only slightly faster than the NB and had not quite cleared it when I got the wash from the passing boat. My boat was half a length past the NB so the first wave turned me sideways, and the second would have capsized me, had I not had a good, stable sea boat. The NB pushed me upstream with it's bow on my hull for a moment.

 

Yes, I was wrong to have put myself in that situation, but surely anyone with a grain of commonsense, would have realised what was about to happen, and the NB owner should have slowed a little to give me room. All the people, including BW workers and lock keepers agree with me, the NB owner should have slowed down to avoid a situation.

 

There is one rule that overrides all others

 

Keep a sharp lookout for others on and in the water and change speed and direction as necessary to avoid incident. If in doubt, slow down or STOP.

 

Just a pity a few more don't read them.

Edited December 31, 2006 by Supermalc

[gralyn]

With the recent talk of etiquette, I thought it might be an idea for a reminder of the rules.

 

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/subje...187559/?lang=_e

 

 

Yes, I was wrong to have put myself in that situation, but surely anyone with a grain of commonsense, would have realised what was about to happen, and the NB owner should have slowed a little to give me room.

 

I see from your account that you did not anticipate what was going to happen, so why do you expect the skipper of the other vessel to do so for you, particularly when he expected you to keep clear and give him the oportinity to do the same?.

[Supermalc]

But the FACT REMAINS......regardless as to who is at fault, you should slow down, or STOP to avoid an incident.

Edited December 31, 2006 by Supermalc

[bottle]

and also realized I was going as fast as I could.

 

I was not there but from what you have written, I think it is a three way fault situation.

 

Now I do not have experience of your type of boat, so I (as I expect the narrow boat) would have no idea as to your top speed and whether you were flat out.

 

[Supermalc]

I was not there but from what you have written, I think it is a three way fault situation.

 

Now I do not have experience of your type of boat, so I (as I expect the narrow boat) would have no idea as to your top speed and whether you were flat out.

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed. But once at fault I did nothing wrong. My only fault was in being too courteous to the cruiser in giving him as much space as possible to get past. Remember this is a WIDE river, where you often encounter very large grain barges travelling quite fast. If I had stuck to the middle of the river between the NB and the bank, the cruiser would have waited until after the bridge to pass.

 

He would have known I was going as fast as I could

 

I make mistakes. I'm human, and expect others to. But I'm not so pig headed I'll cause an accident just because someone else makes a mistake, just because I haven't.

 

 

 

Btw, the last time I came from Newark, I was the one leading the way past the gravel barges stuck on the bottom waiting for the tide.

 

As they say; there's no substitute for experience.

[nipper]

Agreed. But once at fault I did nothing wrong. My only fault was in being too courteous to the cruiser in giving him as much space as possible to get past. Remember this is a WIDE river, where you often encounter very large grain barges travelling quite fast. If I had stuck to the middle of the river between the NB and the bank, the cruiser would have waited until after the bridge to pass.

 

He would have known I was going as fast as I could

 

I make mistakes. I'm human, and expect others to. But I'm not so pig headed I'll cause an accident just because someone else makes a mistake, just because I haven't.

 

Rules are rules and are great if every body keeps to them!

 

You, as the overtaking vessel, had a commitment to keep clear of the boat you were overtaking, having made sure before making the commitment, that it was all clear to do so!

The vessel overtaking you was doing his thing and would presumably done the same with you.

It was your decision to amend your coarse.

 

As for "He would have known I was going as fast as I could". Na! I

[John Orentas]

Most of these awkward situations come about because one person is not quite sure what the other is going to do, then you get some thinking 'I will move over a touch' and another will 'slow down a little', then you get one 'after you old chap' and then 'no after you'.

 

I am not normally one for taking advice but when I did a bit of sailing the most sensible words I ever heard were: "BE DECISIVE".

[nipper]

Rules are rules and are great if every body keeps to them!

 

You, as the overtaking vessel, had a commitment to keep clear of the boat you were overtaking, having made sure before making the commitment, that it was all clear to do so!

The vessel overtaking you was doing his thing and would presumably done the same with you.

It was your decision to amend your coarse.

 

As for "He would have known I was going as fast as I could". Na! I

Whoops! Sorry for me being so rude! I pressed the wrong Button! Still, we all make mistakes!!!!

 

Nipper

[Supermalc]

Whoops! Sorry for me being so rude! I pressed the wrong Button! Still, we all make mistakes!!!!

 

Nipper

 

No you're not being rude at all. It's difficult to see the situation someone describes without being there.

 

I didn't alter course, or anything, just veered slightly towards the NB, to make sure the cruiser had enough room. Of course I was washed against the NB. Normally this wouldn't have caused any problems, except I had almost got past.

 

The NB could have slowed, or turned aways slightly, although this would have made little difference.

 

The cruiser could have hung back until I had passed the NB. In fact my maximum speed is only a little over 6mph, and I believe 6mph is the maximum speed upstream on that stretch, although no one takes any notice.

 

I was stuck in the middle so to speak. If I'd slowed or stopped I would still have been alongside the NB, and would have lost headway, and hence steerage.

 

I only posted this for others to benefit from my experience, and a reminder of what everyone should do.

 

So who was right, or wrong, whatever is totally irrelevant. It is a simple fact, you should not just plough on, being unaware, or regardless of what is happening around you. I was the one who would have lost his life, through little fault of my own.

[Theo]

No you're not being rude at all. It's difficult to see the situation someone describes without being there.

 

I didn't alter course, or anything, just veered slightly towards the NB, to make sure the cruiser had enough room. Of course I was washed against the NB. Normally this wouldn't have caused any problems, except I had almost got past.

 

The NB could have slowed, or turned aways slightly, although this would have made little difference.

 

The cruiser could have hung back until I had passed the NB. In fact my maximum speed is only a little over 6mph, and I believe 6mph is the maximum speed upstream on that stretch, although no one takes any notice.

 

I was stuck in the middle so to speak. If I'd slowed or stopped I would still have been alongside the NB, and would have lost headway, and hence steerage.

 

I only posted this for others to benefit from my experience, and a reminder of what everyone should do.

 

So who was right, or wrong, whatever is totally irrelevant. It is a simple fact, you should not just plough on, being unaware, or regardless of what is happening around you. I was the one who would have lost his life, through little fault of my own.

 

The Rules of the Road at Sea which presumably don't entirely apply in this case used to say (30 years ago when I was a deck officer in the Merchant Navy) that it is the duty of the overtaking vessel to keep out of the way of the overtaken vessel "until finally past and clear". It seems to me that Supermalc did not manage to do this because he compromised his own duty with a misguided (?) sense of courtesy for the vessel which was overtaking him. This third vessel had the duty of keeping out of the way of both Supermalc and the NB again until finally past and clear.

 

The point that I am making is that the rules were broken and caused the incident. However there must be an overriding duty of care which the NB did not follow. Perhaps he was looking elsewhere at the time!

 

I am not at all sure if this post adds anything to the discussion. Please feel free to ignore it!

 

Nick

[nipper]

No you're not being rude at all. It's difficult to see the situation someone describes without being there.

 

I didn't alter course, or anything, just veered slightly towards the NB, to make sure the cruiser had enough room. Of course I was washed against the NB. Normally this wouldn't have caused any problems, except I had almost got past.

 

The NB could have slowed, or turned aways slightly, although this would have made little difference.

 

The cruiser could have hung back until I had passed the NB. In fact my maximum speed is only a little over 6mph, and I believe 6mph is the maximum speed upstream on that stretch, although no one takes any notice.

 

I was stuck in the middle so to speak. If I'd slowed or stopped I would still have been alongside the NB, and would have lost headway, and hence steerage.

 

I only posted this for others to benefit from my experience, and a reminder of what everyone should do.

 

So who was right, or wrong, whatever is totally irrelevant. It is a simple fact, you should not just plough on, being unaware, or regardless of what is happening around you. I was the one who would have lost his life, through little fault of my own.

 

My dear Supermalc "I didn't alter course, or anything, just veered slightly towards the NB". Hehe! Hole and shovel come to mind!

 

As you say "it is all irrelevant" and all part of the wider scene of boating.

 

Have you ever tried making a passage under sail in the busy waters of the Solent on a Sunny weekend in August?

In general the rules are kept to, with lots of gentlemanly waves and acknowledgements of thanks for altering coarse, even if it was you who had to adjust.

 

It all works well and with a surprisingly small number of incidents, that is until you meet a fleet of club racers, then, well be told if you don't keep out of there way, the language is loud and very, shall we say explicit!

 

Most of the bumps and bangs are done by overgenerous sailors doing something not in the collision regs and were not expected to do! thus causing confusion, which in turn leads to the bumps and scrapes, as Nick has said.

 

Nipper

[Supermalc]

My dear Supermalc "I didn't alter course, or anything, just veered slightly towards the NB". Hehe! Hole and shovel come to mind!

 

Nipper

 

Well that's usual for me isn't it

 

 

 

 

 

I am not at all sure if this post adds anything to the discussion.

 

Nick

 

Clarifies it noend

[Supermalc]

You see, the WHOLE POINT of this is the get people to read it, and maybe learn that it is everyones responsibility to try to avoid injury and accident to others if possible.

 

And I feel (and this is only my opinion) unlike on the road, the overriding thing is to avoid injury, or damage, if possible. I'm not talking about bumping another boat, I do that all the time, but with no damage obviously.

 

There was a recent occasion when a boat was approaching a floating mooring, that was rather full, as it was a busy bank holiday. There was just enough space between the boats, and this twin engined cruiser suddenly shot forwards. People ran to help, and stop a damaging collision. It turned out a gear linkage had broken, stopping an engine from going into reverse.

 

If this had been a car park there would have been strong words, and cries of 'maintain your car properly' or 'shouldn't be on the road'. Of course in this instance, people bent over backwards to help, inquiring if transport was required, or parts, tools or equipment were needed. In the event he had it all covered, but it once again showed the joys of boating.

 

Thankfully the incident I related is very much in the minority, well around here anyway.

[nipper]

Yes Supermalc, and here too!

 

Normal indiscretions in the rules of navigation are tolerated.

 

But, I've found that it is when situations get hectic is when the situations turn nasty. Like having to be get your boat back by a certain time and there's a queue of boats up ahead waiting for the lock, and the one at the head of the queue is stopped to make a cup of tea, or like as I have witness on a Cowes Firework night, although, Lord I hope the Canals never get like it. Hundreds of boats, after the fireworks, heading for the same place at the same time, each going their different speed and coarse. most having drank a bottle or two. Bottles get thrown, ramming are made deliberately, flares are set off and on at least one occasion death has occurred!

Our local Marine Division of the Police ( all two boats for the entire Wight area) and the Cowes Harbour Commision have a devil of a job policing the event.

Most boaters are aware of the rules and on the canals, the overlying trend is to be keep happy and polite, most understand that things go wrong, and are willing to help, knowing full well that, maybe next week they may be in a similar position.

 

Hope you all have a happy new year!

 

Nipper

[Keeping Up]

One of my favourite paragraphs in the rules is the one that says "A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway".

 

Since a canal or river counts as a "narrow channel or fairway", and my boat is 20.4 metres long, I can just yell "get out of the way" to all smaller craft including sailing boats.

 

Happy New Year to all

[nipper]

One of my favourite paragraphs in the rules is the one that says "A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway".

 

Since a canal or river counts as a "narrow channel or fairway", and my boat is 20.4 metres long, I can just yell "get out of the way" to all smaller craft including sailing boats.

 

Happy New Year to all

Yes, also the old saying that steam or motor gives way to sail!

Try forcing that issue in the entrance of Portsmouth Harbour and one may find oneself in a tad of bother!

[Supermalc]

Since a canal or river counts as a "narrow channel or fairway", and my boat is 20.4 metres long, I can just yell "get out of the way" to all smaller craft including sailing boats.

 

Happy New Year to all

 

Essential rules and regulations of navigation

 

 

General Rules

 

The following rules of navigation should be obeyed at all times:

 

Steer on the right-hand side when it is safe and practical.

 

Remember that even when you have right of way your overriding responsibility is to avoid collision.

 

Avoid turning vessels around near bridges, bends and lock approaches.

 

Do not turn across the bows of oncoming craft; wait until it is safe.

 

Keep a sharp lookout ahead and astern for anything that may require your attention, and anticipate the necessary action in good time.

 

Keep a sharp lookout for others on and in the water and change speed and direction as necessary to avoid incident. If in doubt, slow down or STOP.

 

Take care at all times when overtaking. Overtaking vessels must keep clear.

 

In the vicinity of bridges or sharp bends, a vessel going upstream must give way, of necessary, to a vessel going downstream.

 

Please note also the local speed limits on each section of river. Some rivers have set up speed limit indicators at intervals along the towpath. Turn to 'Speed Limits' in the 'Useful Information for Boaters' section for more details about each river.

 

Which one's that???

[John Orentas]

Why bother to yell, if they don't get out of the way it's their problem.

[nipper]

Why bother to yell, if they don't get out of the way it's their problem.

 

Yep!

If on a canal boat, sod im, I'm heavier!

If on a small yacht, if in doubt, sod off out! or word to that effect!

 

Have a happy new year all of you!

Nipper

[Dorlan]

Essential rules and regulations of navigation

General Rules

 

The following rules of navigation should be obeyed at all times:

 

Steer on the right-hand side when it is safe and practical.

 

Remember that even when you have right of way your overriding responsibility is to avoid collision.

 

Avoid turning vessels around near bridges, bends and lock approaches.

 

Do not turn across the bows of oncoming craft; wait until it is safe.

 

Keep a sharp lookout ahead and astern for anything that may require your attention, and anticipate the necessary action in good time.

 

Keep a sharp lookout for others on and in the water and change speed and direction as necessary to avoid incident. If in doubt, slow down or STOP.

 

Take care at all times when overtaking. Overtaking vessels must keep clear.

 

In the vicinity of bridges or sharp bends, a vessel going upstream must give way, of necessary, to a vessel going downstream.

 

Please note also the local speed limits on each section of river. Some rivers have set up speed limit indicators at intervals along the towpath. Turn to 'Speed Limits' in the 'Useful Information for Boaters' section for more details about each river.

 

Which one's that???

It's the one in the international colregs!

Very useful when negotiating the River Avon just upstream from Tewkesbury, when the river is crowded with sailing dinghies and you're steering a 70' nb!

[Keeping Up]

Which one's that???

Just follow the link in my post Malcolm, which points to the full text of the International regulations for the prevention of collisions at sea. Yes I know it says "at sea" but it then says it applies to "all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels" which certainly includes rivers but is debatable on canals.

 

It's in section 9.

 

Going on the Thames last summer we were given a mass of literature about navigating on the river, and there's even a reference to it somewhere in that (I don't still have it to refer to).

 

Of course all regulations are superceded by the universal responsibility to make whatever departure from the rules is necessary to avoid immediate danger (seee para 2)

 

Allan

[blackrose]

The narrowboat could have slowed to avoid the collision, but this assumes he understood and could anticipate how your boat would behave when hit by the wake of the passing cruiser. By the time your boat was turned it was probably too late for him to do anything. In hindsight you probably shouldn't have changed course to allow the cruiser to pass beacuse you were overtaking yourself, but everything's easy in retrospect. I think the cruiser must also take some of the blame for attempting to pass an overtaking boat and for creating enough wash to turn your boat.

[Supermalc]

Just follow the link in my post Malcolm,

 

Allan

 

Of course I know Allan; I was being facetious. I was jokingly pointing to the rules I have on the side of the boat

[Supermalc]

you probably shouldn't have changed course

 

How can I put this politely ....... I DID NOT CHANGE COURSE !!!

 

I was passing the NB quite closely, due to it being my first time, and not knowing how wide the channel was. In the event there was most likely enough water in the river for my boat to be able to go from bank to bank, but I didn't know that from looking at the chart, which says to keep in the middle of the left of the river. It was only when the cruiser came up from behind, obviously knowing the river better than myself, that I realized I could have left a larger gap, as he obviously had enough water to pass much closer to the bank. The NB was correctly keeping to the right hand side of the deeper channel, being the slower boat.

 

I might have moved slightly closer to the NB when I saw the cruiser coming up from behind, as I didn't want to be blamed for him running aground, but if was only a matter of a yard or so. I was pushed up to the NB by the wash from the passing boat.

 

Had I stayed in the centre of the wide channel, I would have cleared the NB before the bridge, as I did that anyway. The cruiser would have run aground if he had tried to pass, because he would have had to go too close to the bank. And I wouldn't have been frightened out of my wits, nor had this tale to tell

 

I had waited 3 years for someone to go with me on my first trip on the Trent, but in the end had to do it alone, as usual. I am a non swimmer, was wearing a life jacket, had an anchor, and a VHF, was out of my depth both metaphorically and literally. I had been out in the Wash with my boat, so knew it's capabilities, and mine. But my inexperience and lack local knowledge of this stretch of water, zapped my confidence, so I was overly concerned by others. Sadly the others were not a bit concerned for my welfare.

 

I did not make the same mistake on the return trip, or the two I have undertaken this year.

[Keeping Up]

Of course I know Allan; I was being facetious. I was jokingly pointing to the rules I have on the side of the boat

That's not a problem Malcolm, just as long as you remember which set of rules I'll have on my (20.4 metre steel) boat when your (less than 20 metre wooden) boat is in the way