Trojan T105s in Birmingham?

[madcat]

I think I will have to pass on these, I had been hoping to run a fan or two in my greenhouse to keep the chillies and tomatoes happy but I think I will just get moaned at for having more stuff and more projects.

[nicknorman]

I think I will have to pass on these, I had been hoping to run a fan or two in my greenhouse to keep the chillies and tomatoes happy but I think I will just get moaned at for having more stuff and more projects.

No probs - you must have heard about the funny tea we have!

[Jambo]

Fair points.

 

I think we're getting roughly what I would hope for our of ours. I was very conservatively estimating that our demand might be as much as 100Ah/day and we deplete to about 85% SOC on a 675Ah bank of T105s so that tallies.

[nicknorman]

Update:

 

Now had the Trojans for just over 3 months. As I mentioned previously, at first the capacity seemed pants but with a few cycles the capacity built up and now, 3 months later, they are great. Recently the Smartgauge vs AH-counting Mastershunt displays have been showing the SG reading slightly more than the MS - ie the capacity is more than the 450AH set in the MS, although I suspect this might be a feature of the hot weather.

 

They charge well - as fast as the leisure ones - and although the voltage is perhaps slightly lower under heavy discharge (ie 200A into the inverter) it doesn't seem to matter much.

 

We all know the theory that Lead Calcium batteries (aka cheapo leisure type) have a higher gassing voltage and therefore don't really need water adding, whereas Lead Antimony types (eg Trojans) gas more easily. But it is interesting to see this in practice. Whilst I never needed to add water to our previous leisure set in 2 years, despite a good number of equalisation cycles, after 3 months I have just added a good gulp of water to each cell of our trojan bank. They were perhaps 1/2 way between the full mark and the top of the plates (although they were not quite up to the full mark when I installed them).

 

But it is so much easier to top them up - half the number of cells, the bayonet caps come off and on in 1 second, and the internal collars that are the level marks make it a doddle to see the correct level. The rubber bulb/ tube filler I got for the purpose was also great. All in all it took just a few minutes to top up all the cells.

 

I'm well pleased!

[Grace and Favour]

Delighted to see that you're so impressed with the T 105's, Nick.

 

I've just fitted some to our bote (to replace the 4.5 year old sealed Numax 100Ah cheapies originally fitted), - - so I'd better get myself some distilled water, a top-up bottle, and a mirror-on-a-stick!

[nicknorman]

Delighted to see that you're so impressed with the T 105's, Nick.

 

I've just fitted some to our bote (to replace the 4.5 year old sealed Numax 100Ah cheapies originally fitted), - - so I'd better get myself some distilled water, a top-up bottle, and a mirror-on-a-stick!

Did you notice a marked reluctance to charge and discharge on the first few cycles, as I did?

[Ex- Member]

Update:

 

Now had the Trojans for just over 3 months. As I mentioned previously, at first the capacity seemed pants but with a few cycles the capacity built up and now, 3 months later, they are great. Recently the Smartgauge vs AH-counting Mastershunt displays have been showing the SG reading slightly more than the MS - ie the capacity is more than the 450AH set in the MS, although I suspect this might be a feature of the hot weather.

 

They charge well - as fast as the leisure ones - and although the voltage is perhaps slightly lower under heavy discharge (ie 200A into the inverter) it doesn't seem to matter much.

 

We all know the theory that Lead Calcium batteries (aka cheapo leisure type) have a higher gassing voltage and therefore don't really need water adding, whereas Lead Antimony types (eg Trojans) gas more easily. But it is interesting to see this in practice. Whilst I never needed to add water to our previous leisure set in 2 years, despite a good number of equalisation cycles, after 3 months I have just added a good gulp of water to each cell of our trojan bank. They were perhaps 1/2 way between the full mark and the top of the plates (although they were not quite up to the full mark when I installed them).

 

But it is so much easier to top them up - half the number of cells, the bayonet caps come off and on in 1 second, and the internal collars that are the level marks make it a doddle to see the correct level. The rubber bulb/ tube filler I got for the purpose was also great. All in all it took just a few minutes to top up all the cells.

 

I'm well pleased!

 

Our US2200's are much the same as the T105's

 

Ours have been installed and operating for 2 years now and we generally need to replace half a litre to 3/4 litres of water per month for the 6 batteries. This has been quite consistent, we also equalize once a month too, the batteries seem fine.

 

With our 740w of solar we're generally at a full SOC by noon most days. We've probably have lost some capacity somewhere along the way but it's not really noticeable. If we get 5 years out of them I would consider that a bargain considering our quite high energy use.

 

Topping up for us is also a breeze even though we don't have direct access to the top of the batteries. Using a simple gadget I rigged up with some hose and a cork. We can do all 6 batteries in less than 5 minutes and ensure they're all at the exact full level.

 

Happy days!

[Alf27]

See - http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/T105_Trojan_Data_Sheets.pdf I notice that the rated discharge is for the 20hr rate, the 100hr rate is 25Ahr more.

I also read somewhere that these batteries need approx 16 "cycles" from new to reach full capacity, which would explain the initial performance.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Alf27

[nicknorman]

See - http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/T105_Trojan_Data_Sheets.pdf I notice that the rated discharge is for the 20hr rate, the 100hr rate is 25Ahr more.

I also read somewhere that these batteries need approx 16 "cycles" from new to reach full capacity, which would explain the initial performance.

Thanks, yes I think you are right about the AH, I should set the C100 value because that is probably closer to the discharge rate (to completely flat) but also for reasons discussed in another thread - Peukert is a myth for an AH counter!

 

On the initial cycles, yes in fact the manufacturer indicates 50 - 100 cycles to get to full capacity, however the starting point is something like 80% capacity, whereas mine were way below that, more like 50% for the first couple of cycles. Things improved dramatically when I took them down to about 30% SoC and recharged. That seemed to kick them into life!

 

So far the Mastershunt says I have completed 10 full cycle-equivalents so maybe it will get better still?

Edited July 30, 2014 by nicknorman

[Grace and Favour]

Did you notice a marked reluctance to charge and discharge on the first few cycles, as I did?

Apologies for my delayed reply, Nick.

 

I haven't noticed any such reluctance, tbh, although my previous (Numax) batteries were really not very good, and the new T105's are so much better, that I'm quite prepared to accept that they are at their best - although would be very happy to see if they may improve even more (?).

 

We use a Smartgauge, and made sure the battery bank was on shorepower for 24 hours before we set out. The SG was recording 97% charged (and we know that a reset SG will take a few cycles before it's to be regarded as accurate. - (So I assumed they were less than that - though I made no assumption what their real level would be)

 

However, we're running a very comfortable boatload of electrics (lights/pump/invertor/240v fridge & freezer/TV/radio) and the solar panels <> batteries are keeping everything in very fine form, they've been in for almost two weeks, and the SoC has never fallen below 76%, (and mostly been 86% at its lowest).

[nicknorman]

Apologies for my delayed reply, Nick.

 

I haven't noticed any such reluctance, tbh, although my previous (Numax) batteries were really not very good, and the new T105's are so much better, that I'm quite prepared to accept that they are at their best - although would be very happy to see if they may improve even more (?).

 

We use a Smartgauge, and made sure the battery bank was on shorepower for 24 hours before we set out. The SG was recording 97% charged (and we know that a reset SG will take a few cycles before it's to be regarded as accurate. - (So I assumed they were less than that - though I made no assumption what their real level would be)

 

However, we're running a very comfortable boatload of electrics (lights/pump/invertor/240v fridge & freezer/TV/radio) and the solar panels <> batteries are keeping everything in very fine form, they've been in for almost two weeks, and the SoC has never fallen below 76%, (and mostly been 86% at its lowest).

Thanks, I get the feeling ours were "odd" for some reason, although coming from Tayna with their huge turnover I can't imagine they had been on the shelf excessively. Anyway, fine now.

 

At the Hudson open day, we had shore power over night but unplugged at 9am. By 6 pm, having used the 2kw electric kettle (full) twice, and the new nespresso machine (which is fantastic by the way) for 2 cups of real coffee, the fridge on all day in the heat and the RGB under gunwale lighting on for much of the day (to impress the visitors!), we still had 90% on the SG and 86% on the AH counter, which I thought was pretty good. Generally when out cruising we are waking up in the morning to mid-80s% despite lots of recording satellite box and tv time the previous evening, and leaving the inverter on with the TV & Sat box on standby all night.

[nicknorman]

Just by way of an update:

 

Just returned from 2.5 week cruise to Peterborough and back. Batteries getting plenty of use as usual, but also cruising for maybe 7 hrs/ day average. Towards the end I started to notice the Smartgauge reading below the Mastershunt AH counter after breakfast - an indication that the actual capacity is now a bit less than the rated capacity.

 

So on return to the marina, and with both Mastershunt and Smartgauge reading 100%, I though I would have a look with my new optical hydrometer. The nominal specific gravity of a new fully charged Trojan is 1.277. But mine were between 1.250 and 1.235. An equlaisation charge was required.

 

So now on shore power I cranked the charge voltage up to 15.5v. Current was around 10A for the 450AH bank, and lots of fizzing.

 

The batteries are arranged in two sets of 6v batteries in series. The mid-point (6v) interconnects have absolutely nothing on them except the battery posts, so it was strange to note that each of the two 12v combinations had a mid point voltage not exactly half the total voltage. In each case, during charge there was more than 0.1v more across the batteries connected to +ve, than those connected to negative. This was supported by a general tendency for the batteries connected to +ve to have higher specific gravity.

 

Strange - is this co-incidence? Obviously identical current has to flow in and out of each pair of batteries connected in series but equally, some imbalance might build up over time due to slight efficiency differences. But it did seem odd that both sets of batteries had this same voltage difference, in the same sense, such that the difference between the batteries mid-point voltages was virtually zero. So the split was the same magnitude and direction. By the way, there is no mid-point interconnect between the two strings.

 

I am inclined to swap the batteries around so that the two better charged batteries are in series, and the two lesser charged batteries are in series, to see if the imbalance sets up again.

 

Anyway, by the time we had to go to the airport and I had to stop the equalise, the gravity had gone up to 1.275 in some cells with the lowest at 1.255 so the equalisation was working, but needs a bit longer.

 

So just goes to show that despite the boat being on shore power float at 13.2v when we are at home, and cruising for 6-8 hrs each day with a modern alternator regulating to around 14.5v when we are out, sulphation still sets in a bit, and equalisation is needed to restore peak performance.

[smileypete]

Wonder if two batts were nearer the hull so warmer or cooler? Seems there can be slight positive feedback at work leading cell SGs to drift apart, naughty batts!

 

Could try a timed amount of mild eq each day, say 2 periods of half an hour. Bit risky if the batts are unattended though, would need a current limited supply.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited September 29, 2014 by smileypete

[nicknorman]

Wonder if two batts were nearer the hull so warmer or cooler? Seems there can be slight positive feedback at work leading cell SGs to drift apart, naughty batts!

 

Could try a timed amount of mild eq each day, say 2 periods of half an hour. Bit risky if the batts are unattended though, would need a current limited supply.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

The batteries are all arranged along the swim, in a fairly thick wooden box, so they are roughly equidistant from the engine on one side, and the hull on the other. The hospital silencer (wrapped in insulating cloth) is fairly near the rear-most one, however the "good" and "bad" batteries alternate so there is no clear link to temperature.

 

I think I just need to run the Combi charger via the TravelPower to do a brief eq towards at the end of a day's cruising. I can set the voltage to 15.5v and limit the current to say 10A quickly and easily, using the Masterview control panel. The Trojan info out there is a bit confusing, in some places they say to routinely do an eq say monthly, elsewhere they say no need to eq until there is low or split specific gravities.

[smileypete]

Something that may be easier and help a little, if the charge source is relatively low power and suitable for unattended use, could try cycling the power off and back on every day or two to start a new charge cycle.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[dmr]

Fancy going all the way to Peterborough and not going on to explore the middle level (and great Ouse)!!!!!

 

With you doing several hours cruising everyday you really should not need to equalise. What is the state of charge when you start off each morning?

 

I am 99% sure you need to equalise because Trojans really do need to charge at 14.8, the 14.4 from the alternator is just not good enough, but then that's more or less what you said yourself.

 

You might remember that I am having issues with my new 100amp Iskra running hot, and till I concoct a longer term fix I have been running some days with the Adverc disconnected (14.4 volts from the alternator) and some days with the Adverc on giving 14.8 volts. Charging is so much better at 14.8v but it makes the alternator hot.

 

............Dave

Edited September 29, 2014 by dmr

[nicknorman]

Fancy going all the way to Peterborough and not going on to explore the middle level (and great Ouse)!!!!!

 

We went to Stanground sluice and looked at the inviting ML but alas we had to get back for Jeff's work!

[nicknorman]

With you doing several hours cruising everyday you really should not need to equalise. What is the state of charge when you start off each morning?

 

I am 99% sure you need to equalise because Trojans really do need to charge at 14.8, the 14.4 from the alternator is just not good enough, but then that's more or less what you said yourself.

 

We typically have just under 80% when we wake up, but by the time the electric kettle has made tea, nespresso machine coffee, toaster on a bit and breakfast TV it is perhaps 65% when I start the engine to set off.

 

Yes I think a higher charge voltage would be better. I think I can leave the Combi set to say 15v but with the max current set to say 20A, so with the TravelPower on, whilst initially the alternator will be doing all the work and the voltage will be way down, as the batteries approach fully charged and the demand falls below 20A the voltage will rise to the Combi's set value.

 

Anyway, the batteries have done well so far, until last week the Smartgauge was always reading equal or higher than the Mastershunt meaning the batteries were at their rated capacity. It was only the last few days of our holiday when the Smartgauge started to read a bit lower. Thinking about it these were shorter than normal days, so although we got to 100% on both SG and MS, I suspect the batteries would have benefitted from longer on charge.

 

What I can't explain though, is the imbalance between the lower and upper batteries in each string. Although I suppose if I swap them around, that will prove whether it is some strange installation effect or just the random way I chose to install batteries with slight manufacturing differences.

Edited September 29, 2014 by nicknorman

[dmr]

We typically have just under 80% when we wake up, but by the time the electric kettle has made tea, nespresso machine coffee, toaster on a bit and breakfast TV it is perhaps 65% when I start the engine to set off.

 

Yes I think a higher charge voltage would be better. I think I can leave the Combi set to say 15v but with the max current set to say 20A, so with the TravelPower on, whilst initially the alternator will be doing all the work and the voltage will be way down, as the batteries approach fully charged and the demand falls below 20A the voltage will rise to the Combi's set value.

 

Anyway, the batteries have done well so far, until last week the Smartgauge was always reading equal or higher than the Mastershunt meaning the batteries were at their rated capacity. It was only the last few days of our holiday when the Smartgauge started to read a bit lower. Thinking about it these were shorter than normal days, so although we got to 100% on both SG and MS, I suspect the batteries would have benefitted from longer on charge.

 

What I can't explain though, is the imbalance between the lower and upper batteries in each string. Although I suppose if I swap them around, that will prove whether it is some strange installation effect or just the random way I chose to install batteries with slight manufacturing differences.

 

That combination of the alternator at 14.4 plus the Combi at 15v must get pretty close to the ideal charge curve published by Trojan. Is it possible than in a typical day that the Combi never gets a chance to do its stuff at 15v because the 14.4 alternator never gets the batteries to below 2 amps charge current?? If we start at 60% ish then at 14.4v, 4 hours is probably not enough to get the current down to 20, but then i do have a little volt drop issue to resolve.

 

Your battery imbalance pattern might be just co-incidence. i have certainly noticed that I have one significantly weaker battery (in specific gravity terms) and they are all a bit different but there is no obvious pattern.

 

..........Dave

[nicknorman]

So after limited equalisation, left the boat on float charge for 2 weeks at 13.2v. On testing the specific gravities I am now getting all cells between 1280 and 1290 which, after applying temperature compensation, is 1270 to 1280. When I equalised them at the end of the trip, with Smartgauge and AH counter both showing 100%, they were taking about 10A at 15.5v. When I briefly took them back to 15.5v yesterday they were only taking 3A (for a 450AH bank). So I guess they are now fully charged again, something which seems hard to achieve even with a pattern of 7 or 8 hrs cruising every day, and a large modern alternator.

[Phil.]

So after limited equalisation, left the boat on float charge for 2 weeks at 13.2v. On testing the specific gravities I am now getting all cells between 1280 and 1290 which, after applying temperature compensation, is 1270 to 1280. When I equalised them at the end of the trip, with Smartgauge and AH counter both showing 100%, they were taking about 10A at 15.5v. When I briefly took them back to 15.5v yesterday they were only taking 3A (for a 450AH bank). So I guess they are now fully charged again, something which seems hard to achieve even with a pattern of 7 or 8 hrs cruising every day, and a large modern alternator.

We are clearly in a similar position as you but will have less occasions where we can connect to shorepower. In these circumstances would you opt for an external regulator to raise alternator voltage and if so which one, or do you think adjusting the mastervolt combi charging voltage would be better and then charge via the travelpower.

[nicknorman]

We are clearly in a similar position as you but will have less occasions where we can connect to shorepower. In these circumstances would you opt for an external regulator to raise alternator voltage and if so which one, or do you think adjusting the mastervolt combi charging voltage would be better and then charge via the travelpower.

I have no experience of external alternator regulators and consequently I am a bit "anti" them due to the occassional story of battery-boiling following failure. However no doubt folk with actual experience will have a different view!

 

But as we've said you already have the makings of a higher voltage charging system using the TP and Combi. You just need a means of adjusting it. Did you say you had changed the Combi dip switch setting to traction, if so does that help to raise the charging voltage? If not then it's back to the laptop interface, or the Masterbus interface + remote panel such as a Masterview.

 

One other point: the MV Combi has a temperature sensor that is put on top of a battery (self-adhesive). This adjusts the charge voltage with temperature. However I've always though it was a bit on the extreme side and this is not helped by our batteries being in the compact engine compartment which obviously gets pretty warm when running. On the othe hand the batteries are on the swim which should remain pretty cool. But with the sensor being on top of the batteries, I suspect it is mostly measuring air temperature since it is stuck onto a plastic battery top with air all round it both inside and out. It is not thermally well connected with the electrolyte temperature. Therefore I have today moved it to the side of the battery around the top of the plate level, so on the other side of the plastic there is now electrolyte rather than air. I expect this to make a fair bit of difference (I can view the value of the other identical temperature sensor for the Mastershunt on the Masterview panel, which I have also relocated). Depending on where your batteries are it may be worth you doing the same thing to ensure the Combi is reading electrolyte temperature, not air temperature.

[Phil.]

Thanks Nick, yes already set dip switch to traction setting and when charging SG shows voltage as 14.60 however the travelpower only show amps at 0.5 so not sure if that correct. Like you my temp sensor is stuck on top but i shall now move that to the side of batts. As an aside I also have solar which is controlled by an outback 60 charge controller. This seems to be charging at amps ranging from 2 to 12 depending on sunlight but only at whatever the battery voltage is currently at. I have set the absorb and float charging levels but charge controller never gets there it is always in bulk. I can set charge controller to equalise and when this is done it takes voltage up to 15.5 and delivers about 7 amps but again this is dependant on the amount of sunlight.

I presume that even when on shorepower currently the mastervolt settings are too low for optimal charging of Trojans.

[nicknorman]

Thanks Nick, yes already set dip switch to traction setting and when charging SG shows voltage as 14.60 however the travelpower only show amps at 0.5 so not sure if that correct. Like you my temp sensor is stuck on top but i shall now move that to the side of batts. As an aside I also have solar which is controlled by an outback 60 charge controller. This seems to be charging at amps ranging from 2 to 12 depending on sunlight but only at whatever the battery voltage is currently at. I have set the absorb and float charging levels but charge controller never gets there it is always in bulk. I can set charge controller to equalise and when this is done it takes voltage up to 15.5 and delivers about 7 amps but again this is dependant on the amount of sunlight.

I presume that even when on shorepower currently the mastervolt settings are too low for optimal charging of Trojans.

0.5A on the TravelPower is the current at 230v, ie about 115 watts which is just under 10A into the 12v system. So that would be reasonable assuming the batteries were nearly fully charged, otherwise it seems rather low.

 

Regarding the solar, I guess there's not enough sun to get the batteries fully charged which is why it is staying in bulk, and of course you have to bear in mind that the solar controller can't distinguish between current going into the batteries and current going into the boat to run the fridge etc when deciding if the batteries have stopped taking much current.

 

I think the traction settings will keep the batteries fully charged on shore power simply because they will be charged continuously. I left our boat with the Combi on Float ie 13.2v but after 2 weeks, the batteries now seem completely full.

[smileypete]

So after limited equalisation, left the boat on float charge for 2 weeks at 13.2v. On testing the specific gravities I am now getting all cells between 1280 and 1290 which, after applying temperature compensation, is 1270 to 1280. When I equalised them at the end of the trip, with Smartgauge and AH counter both showing 100%, they were taking about 10A at 15.5v. When I briefly took them back to 15.5v yesterday they were only taking 3A (for a 450AH bank). So I guess they are now fully charged again, something which seems hard to achieve even with a pattern of 7 or 8 hrs cruising every day, and a large modern alternator.

 

What charging was done in between? Did you check the SG after the EQ too?

 

I wonder if there's some stratification which a shortish period of EQ doesn't address. The weaker acid nearer the top gasses more at a specific voltage, after a long mains charge it sorts itself out.

 

If the batts are directly on a cold counter the temp difference may increase any stratification, the colder part needs higher charge voltages and doesn't deliver current so easily.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited October 12, 2014 by smileypete