Supercapacitors as replacement for starter battery

[Quinafloat]

 

Sorry, but I'm the potential customer, and I want a lot of fancy trimmings, but not this one I'm afraid...

 

The actual people who have existing supercap starter systems are predominantly truckers working in sub arctic conditions in North America as starting a huge rig without a block heater being available is almost impossible in the low temperatures they encounter supercaps work down to -40 degrees whereas lead acid batteries are starting to freeze at that temperature.

 

I think the only people who would be interested in implementing such a system would be the owners of diesel engined boats who use them during the winter.

 

I have absolutely no intention of selling such a system, nor of building systems for anyone.

[MtB]

I'm with Richard. Convince me too please. I really can't see ANY actual advantage to balance out the huge raft of drawbacks.

 

The other examples you cite all have significant advantages over the older technology but supercaps for starting an engine have none whatsoever as far as I can see. I like technology for the sake of it, but in this case I can see no benefit.

 

MtB

[RLWP]

Digging around, I can't find a 2000F capacitor with the necessary voltage rating, presumably you will have to parallel up smaller capacitors

 

Richard

[Quinafloat]

Please, convince me. I don't know how many caps you need, or how much they will cost. I'm prepared to set aside any environmental impact from the manufacture of them

 

Richard

 

I'm not sure I can convince you as I'm not totally convinced myself without testing a system in situ.

 

These are what I am currently planning to use, it's a US site but they cost about the same over here.It's just that this site has a load of links you might be interested in as well.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Maxwell-1500-Farad-Ultracapacitor-Supercapacitor-Qty-6-new-/370945619611?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item565e14f69b

 

It's quite possible that I will have to double this when tested and find out the lowest voltage that still spins my engine, it will certainly be a lower voltage than lead acid.

 

The site shows the price of 6 caps in series and that is what is required.

 

The advantages I am looking for, and expect are:

 

Zero maintenance

 

Fit and forget (most supercaps are rated for 1,000,000 cycles)

 

Much easier winter starting as they deliver full power down to -40

 

Overall price reduction as no need to ever replace the starter battery.

 

Being able to provide my daughter with a starter battery able to cope with Canadian winters and not be replaced every 2 years.

 

The last item is important to me but I don't expect anyone else to care. It is what makes it cost effective to me.

 

 

Consider yourself included in this MtB

[RLWP]

My electronics theory is creaking now...

 

I thought that you connect capacitors in parallel to get the capacity. So, you can make a 1500F capacitor that way, but it will break down above 2.7V

 

Richard

[ditchcrawler]

 

When I built my current boat halogen lights were the obvious choice, and solar panels were fantastically expensive. I have subsequently updated my boat as they dropped in price and became cost efficient. In both cases the initial investment cost had dropped to the point that a return on the investment can be made in an overseeable time frame. A supercap starter battery has now entered that realm in my opinion. Everybody has their own break even points on these things.

 

As regards seeing results I have no time frame in mind. Hopefully I will implement the system before this coming winter and test it over the winter. I will happily share the results, good and bad, with interested people.

I for one am very interested. 10 years ago I couldn't see the point of solar cells, a wind generator was the answer even if it didn't have enough power to recharge your battery. Time moves on.

[Graham Davis]

 

I'm not sure I can convince you as I'm not totally convinced myself without testing a system in situ.

 

These are what I am currently planning to use, it's a US site but they cost about the same over here.It's just that this site has a load of links you might be interested in as well.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Maxwell-1500-Farad-Ultracapacitor-Supercapacitor-Qty-6-new-/370945619611?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item565e14f69b

 

It's quite possible that I will have to double this when tested and find out the lowest voltage that still spins my engine, it will certainly be a lower voltage than lead acid.

 

The site shows the price of 6 caps in series and that is what is required.

 

The advantages I am looking for, and expect are:

 

Zero maintenance

 

Fit and forget (most supercaps are rated for 1,000,000 cycles)

 

Much easier winter starting as they deliver full power down to -40

 

Overall price reduction as no need to ever replace the starter battery.

 

Being able to provide my daughter with a starter battery able to cope with Canadian winters and not be replaced every 2 years.

 

The last item is important to me but I don't expect anyone else to care. It is what makes it cost effective to me.

 

 

Consider yourself included in this MtB

 

That works out at £106 x 6, so £636!!!!!!

That buys a hell of a lot of batteries!!

[RLWP]

This is useful: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/whats_the_role_of_the_supercapacitor

 

Richard

That works out at £106 x 6, so £636!!!!!!

That buys a hell of a lot of batteries!!

£106 is the price for 6

[Paul G2]

 

No, I am not, I am seeking people who have tried such a system, or who have current knowledge of such a system. I am sure there are some pitfalls and am willing and eager to hear them. However people are doing just this in cars and people are selling such products, so it's not impossible. I am ignoring advice that I will instantly die. Giving existing examples to discount some peoples fears, and ignoring those who did not understand the question, If people think it is a bad idea then that is an opinion. If they give facts pertinent to the question then I will be listening intently. Examples might be that I have the wrong size supercapacitors in mind which would be open to mathematical reasoning. Alternatively that the cable sizing would be a problem or that the starter would weld due to the power being delivered too quickly. There are many reasons that would stop me in my tracks. However if the arguments are on the basis of a) I don't do it so it's wrong it's not how it's done c) I think it's dangerous. Then I think that refutation is in order. Otherwise there will be no progress (which I am sure will suit many).

 

About a year ago I was googling "ship diesel electric" or "yacht diesel electric", one or the other, or something similar, lol, and I came across a company that was fitting yachts up to around 65' with diesel electric systems powered by big generators and supercapicitors, IIRC. I don't recall the name of the company, however, if you google those two search terms I gave you, you can probably find the company. As I recall, they used pretty hefty generators to charge the capacitors very quickly then used the capacitors for both propulsion and domestic. I guess their claim to fame was the ability to regulate the discharge from the capacitors, or some such thing.

 

This company mentions supercapacitors for their d/e systems. They might have some useful information.

 

This place has capacitor starting systems for locomotives. Looks like they make exactly what you are talking about.

 

The same is true for LED's. solar panels, and quite a lot of boat kit. There is no direct reason for them as narrowboats worked fine without them leading right back to using horses and legging through tunnels. Easier and cheaper are main drivers of change but there are many more. Taking an established technology and using it in some other field is not new and supercaps are an established technology. You can walk into any Maplins and buy them. The advantage of changing a consumable (which a starter battery is) for a "fit and forget" item is a significant advantage. Thus the advantages of cost and ease are fulfilled. The fact that supercaps are far greener than lead acid is certainly a driver for me, all that lead, some of which does not get recycled, getting into our ecosystems is pretty horrible. However, for me it is the sheer suitability of supercaps that holds the attraction. A starter battery needs to deliver a high current for a short period. The current lead acid technology. It is very bad at doing that requiring huge batteries to do the job badly. Supercaps provide pretty much the right sort of short term high current, a near perfect match

 

If just working is fine for you, that is a choice which I can applaud. I am looking for improvement. Interestingly I may not have to build such an item as at least one chinese factory now seems to have started producing exactly what I was planning. A supercap starter battery.

 

Well now, if you really want to make some strides, check out the electrical/propulsion system in this yacht.

[RLWP]

This is useful too: http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/26367/how-practical-would-a-car-booster-using-supercapacitors-be

 

Richard

[Quinafloat]

My electronics theory is creaking now...

 

I thought that you connect capacitors in parallel to get the capacity. So, you can make a 1500F capacitor that way, but it will break down above 2.7V

 

Richard

 

No your theory is correct. They will be connected in series not parallel. Anecdotal information suggests that the 250 farads that remains could well be enough, certainly for a proof of concept. There are many dynamics which are fundamentally different with this setup than with lead acid such as cranking speed and glowplug time to heat. If it does not work out then I have the base parameters to uprate to 3000 f caps with more certainty than I have today.

[RLWP]

Hmm, I can find only one example of the setup you want to do, in May last year

 

I can find several articles with the sums that say it isn't worth it. I'm beginning to go with the physicist on this one

 

Successful, commercial systems all utilise electronics in addition to a stack of capacitors

 

Richard

[Quinafloat]

 

 

This place has capacitor starting systems for locomotives. Looks like they make exactly what you are talking about.

 

 

Capos also do supercap boost starters for trucks.

 

Many thanks for the links

[Quinafloat]

Hmm, I can find only one example of the setup you want to do, in May last year

 

I can find several articles with the sums that say it isn't worth it. I'm beginning to go with the physicist on this one

 

Successful, commercial systems all utilise electronics in addition to a stack of capacitors

 

Richard

 

You may well be right. I can well see that some electronics would be of benefit. However the place for me to start is KISS and then rectify any shortcomings. I'm not planning to add complexity if it turns out not to be required. Similarly if I find a suitable product on the market (which is changing rapidly) at the right price, I will purchase rather than build.

[Graham Davis]

This is useful: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/whats_the_role_of_the_supercapacitor

 

Richard

 

£106 is the price for 6

 

Oops!!

[Quinafloat]

I for one am very interested. 10 years ago I couldn't see the point of solar cells, a wind generator was the answer even if it didn't have enough power to recharge your battery. Time moves on.

 

Are you going to be on the Great Ouse this coming winter? If so you can come and play.

[ditchcrawler]

 

Are you going to be on the Great Ouse this coming winter? If so you can come and play.

No we are sticking with the canals.

[MtB]

The advantages I am looking for, and expect are:

 

Zero maintenance

 

Fit and forget (most supercaps are rated for 1,000,000 cycles)

 

Much easier winter starting as they deliver full power down to -40

 

Overall price reduction as no need to ever replace the starter battery.

 

Given the low cost and widespread good understanding already of conventional battery technology I think supercaps will take a long time to gain traction for these benefits here in the UK.

 

 

 

 

Being able to provide my daughter with a starter battery able to cope with Canadian winters and not be replaced every 2 years.

 

The last item is important to me but I don't expect anyone else to care. It is what makes it cost effective to me.

This is different if batteries really only last two years in Canada. A real shortcoming in conventional battery starting for which early adopters would probably pay a substantial premium.

 

Despite you scepticism I'm convinced on this point because here, supercaps seem to offer something lead acid batteries can't do.

 

 

MtB

 

 

 

(Edit to sort out my HTML tags!)

Edited March 29, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[Quinafloat]

This is different if batteries really only last two years in Canada. A real shortcoming in conventional battery starting for which early adopters would probably pay a substantial premium.

 

Despite you scepticism I'm convinced on this point because here, supercaps seem to offer something lead acid batteries can't do.

 

 

Canada is a big country so one should not generalise,it has a couple of warm bits, but where my daughter lives temperatures do go down to -40 (a charged battery freezes at that temperature). Minus 10 to -35 is pretty normal winter weather. Batteries are routinely replaced at 2 years there as they take one hell of a beating as you might expect with cold starting, defrosters, seat heaters etc. However engine block heaters are normal to keep engines warm during times cars are parked. Trucks are often just left running overnight if they are not near to a suitable block heater.

[MtB]

 

Canada is a big country so one should not generalise,it has a couple of warm bits, but where my daughter lives temperatures do go down to -40 (a charged battery freezes at that temperature). Minus 10 to -35 is pretty normal winter weather. Batteries are routinely replaced at 2 years there as they take one hell of a beating as you might expect with cold starting, defrosters, seat heaters etc. However engine block heaters are normal to keep engines warm during times cars are parked. Trucks are often just left running overnight if they are not near to a suitable block heater.

 

 

Wow, and I thought it was cold here on Thursday night!

 

 

 

MtB

[Quinafloat]

 

That works out at £106 x 6, so £636!!!!!!

That buys a hell of a lot of batteries!!

 

Thank you for reinforcing my points about initial costs. This would not make sense at that price. Similarly no one was advocating solar panels when they were £700 pounds per hundred watts despite the fact that they produced the same amount of power as today and saved the same amount of diesel. Similarly no one was advocating LEDs when they were £50 a bulb and saved diesel. They were ridiculous technologies to use at those prices as using the extra diesel was far cheaper. Of course in todays boating world, where they are no longer innovative technologies people now consider them obvious technologies but only because the initial investment price has dropped. The only common standards are price/performance and return on investment.

 

I am not trying to abuse your post in any way. It just made the point I was trying to make with succinct clarity.

[MtB]

This was my point too.

 

If a new technology brings a benefit that is currently too expensive, it is well worth following up as costs tend to fall.

 

If there is no benefit in the first place it is only worth following up for academic interest. And the fact that a different use which does have a benefit might emerge in the future.

 

MtB

[ditchcrawler]

 

Thank you for reinforcing my points about initial costs. This would not make sense at that price. Similarly no one was advocating solar panels when they were £700 pounds per hundred watts despite the fact that they produced the same amount of power as today and saved the same amount of diesel. Similarly no one was advocating LEDs when they were £50 a bulb and saved diesel. They were ridiculous technologies to use at those prices as using the extra diesel was far cheaper. Of course in todays boating world, where they are no longer innovative technologies people now consider them obvious technologies but only because the initial investment price has dropped. The only common standards are price/performance and return on investment.

 

I am not trying to abuse your post in any way. It just made the point I was trying to make with succinct clarity.

Bit like having the internet on a boat, when I first did it it was via infra red to my Nokia 610

[Sir Nibble]

. However the place for me to start is KISS and then rectify any shortcomings. I'm not planning to add complexity if it turns out not to be required.

[Paul C]

Why not install a battery heater in your daughter's Canadian car?