Damp issues

[David Schweizer]

It seems our ventilation is very similar to Nicks.

 

Our S/S tank as far as I know hasn't condensated, we quite regularly access this area as we have stuff stored in there. I've never noticed any condensation, It probably dose at times though.

 

The vents as I said allow air to enter the cratch below deck, the bilges also get fresh air this way. Our boat is bone dry in all the bilges, the last time i looked a few weeks ago I could sweep up dry sawdust from the base plate. no signs of condensation or musty smells in the water tank area or indeed the bilges. The lower bulkhead between the the bow and cabin is also insulated.

 

Weather the ventilation is a requirement or not, it works well on our boat.

 

Since when has the cratch had anything to do with below decks? The cratch is the small area behind the deck board and above the gunnels where boatmen originally stored fodder for the horse. The correct term for the area you are describing is the front well.

[Ex- Member]

below cratch deck,

 

Is well deck the correct term I'm unsure.

 

Front well will do though

Edited January 21, 2014 by Julynian

[Neil2]

I agree with well deck - the floor of the cockpit.

 

Lots of people seem to use the term "cratch" to describe the bow cockpit these days, and "cratch cover" to describe the tent that sometimes encloses it. But as I understand it the cratch is the tent thingy, or rather the space enclosed by it.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Neil2

[thorne lass]

For a new boat this is most unacceptable. I suspect that the problem could well be faulty insulation / bare steelwork on the forward bulkhead, in which case there may be problems elsewhere as well.

[Grace and Favour]

OP - - it is undoubtedly a combination of insufficient ventilation, and insufficient insulation.

 

The boatbuilder simply must attend to the latter

[blackrose]

This winter has been a right swine for condensation, because of all the rain, I guess. We run a DeLonghi dehumidifier in the engine room in the winter and it's been working far harder than in previous years, taking about half a litre per day out of the air and that's in a well insulated, heated and ventilated boat. Still it's a good supply of de-ionised water...

 

Chasing condensation is an air bed problem; you squash it in one place and it pops up in another.

 

I don't get it? My boat isn't even that well insulated and I get no condensation apart from a little bit on the window frames.

 

As far as I'm aware the cratch area must be ventilated to allow air to the bilges. Moost boats have vents either side of the cratch doors. If yours doesn't then there must be ventilation from elsewhere. I'm sure this is a BSS requirement. Possibly the BSS chap on the forum might like to comment. But on both BSS examinations we've had these vents have been checked that the airway is clear.

 

As we've discussed before Julynian, ventilation isn't a BSS requirement only a recomendation. It does seem a bit odd that you point to the importance of clear vents on someone else's boat, yet in recent threads you've admittied to blocking all of the mushroom vents on your boat.

Edited January 21, 2014 by blackrose

[John Williamson 1955]

 

I don't get it? My boat isn't even that well insulated and I get no condensation apart from a little bit on the window frames.

To get condensation, the temperature of the surface has to be below the dew point of the air next to it. Excessive moisture in the air will due to a lack of ventilation will raise the dew point. Poor insulation behind the bulkhead here will reduce the temperature of the bulkhead to below the dew point, and the result is instant condensation on the cold surface.

 

To confirm that this is a cause, then check the relative humidity in that area of the boat. My day cabin normally has an RH of about 40% when the heating's running, but I have a solid fuel stove and plenty of vents, so I'm virtually living in a warm and dry bit of the outdoors.

 

I have a similar problem with the access hatch to my water tank from the front well, but that's due to rainwater and a leaking overflow when I fill the tank. I need a new skin fitting, and should probably be leaving the cratch cover closed.

[Ex- Member]

 

I don't get it? My boat isn't even that well insulated and I get no condensation apart from a little bit on the window frames.

 

As we've discussed before Julynian, ventilation isn't a BSS requirement only a recomendation. It does seem a bit odd that you point to the importance of clear vents on someone else's boat, yet in recent threads you've admittied to blocking all of the mushroom vents on your boat.

 

Again as you well know we have ample fixed ventilation with them blocked. It's incredible how many times you need reminding of this.

 

There is a requirement for low level ventilation, this is usually achieved in the way I have described.

 

BSS 8.9

Low-level venting can be achieved by letting in cold air from vents in

doors and/or bulkheads, or by means of ducting from a higher level.

Agreed it is advisory though, I stated earlier I wasn't completely sure.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Julynian

[Alan Saunders]

Staarek, welcome to CWDF! Sorry to hear of your problem. Lots of opinions and observations here - mostly good advice.

FWIW, here's my experience:

 

I have a 26 year-old steel boat boat with poor insulation (1" or 2" polystyrene slabs, 1/8" over ribs) and single-glazed aluminium-framed windows.

Ventilation exceeds the old BSS (and current hire-boat) requirements by 30% when the gas oven, grill and all four burners are at maximum (never).

 

Until this winter, with one exception, I did not have a problem with condensation (except on the window glass and frames) certainly no mould.

In the heavy rain a window leaked and soaked some upholstery and woodwork. In the week it took the gas c/h to dry it out mould established. Not as serious as yours, just a white film in unventilated cupboards and on the thin, external cabin doors (adjacent to the ventilators) that I could easily wipe off.

 

Previously, when I needed to dry out a bilge in the summer, I left the boat with floorboards up and windows open an inch. When I returned, a week later, the whole cabin was dripping with condensation and I do mean drips from the T&G pine ceiling (deckhead?) not just a little damp. There was no condensation when the water was sealed into the bilge by the 18mm WBP ply floorboards.

 

Another example, my car's front footwell carpets are very wet due to a leaking sun-roof. The car is parked facing due south. On a sunny winter day (e.g. today) the windscreen is clear but the rear screen is running with condensation.

 

My conclusion is that to suffer damp and mould to the extent that you have there must be a considerable area of water lying somewhere or, possibly, soaked into non-water-proof materials. It may be a leak or it may be accumulated condensation but this may not be at the source of the observed problem.

 

Go back to the boat-builder, fitter or whoever sold it to you armed with the opinions of this forum and the results of your own investigations.

 

HTH, Alan

Edited January 22, 2014 by Alan Saunders

[PaddingtonBear]

Given this is a basic but fairly serious error by the supposed boat builder one wonders what other issues will manifest themselves.

[David Schweizer]

I agree with well deck - the floor of the cockpit.

 

Lots of people seem to use the term "cratch" to describe the bow cockpit these days, and "cratch cover" to describe the tent that sometimes encloses it. But as I understand it the cratch is the tent thingy, or rather the space enclosed by it.

 

No, No, No! Replacing the wrong terminology with an even less appropriate one does not help . Cockpit is a term used to describe the area at the front of a boat or ship where the Captain stands to steer. There is no such thing as a cockpit on a conventionally configured narrowboat.

 

The term front well has existed for at least fifty years to my knowledge, and probably much longer, why must people invent new descriptions when a perfectly adequate one already exists?

 

Edited to add:- Your final sentence defining cratch is correct, as I understand it.

Edited January 22, 2014 by David Schweizer

[thorne lass]

Some further thoughts.

 

1. I presume that the areas photgraphed are within the main cabin area and are not in lockers that have been stuffed with effects, limiting air flow.

 

2. It is not unusual for there to be no ventilation under the well deck / forward cockpit and it is often not a problem other than long term corrosion so long as any condensate drops onto the steel bottom and drains aft. It is however a sign of an unconscientious boat fitter and not ideal.

 

3. Ventilation to the area is not a requirement but is sensible.

 

4. Condensation forming under the well deck plating can be copious and if it stands it will feed itself or re-cycle, i.e. vapourise and then recondense above.

 

5. I suspect that your cabin sole (floor) protrudes perhaps slightly forward of the cabin bulkhead, i.e. the bulkhead lining is built on top of it. Your damp problem would appear to be mainly and primarily in the sole, and the damp is then rising up the oak cabin lining boards. I suspect that condensation is dripping or tracking from the well deck underside or the water tank onto this protruding section of cabin sole and saturating it.

 

I can probably help you further with this if indeed you are under warranty from a professional boat fitter but you would need to send me a private email.

Edited January 22, 2014 by thorne lass

[Neil2]

 

No, No, No! Replacing the wrong terminology with an even less appropriate one does not help . Cockpit is a term used to describe the area at the front of a boat or ship where the Captain stands to steer. There is no such thing as a cockpit on a conventionally configured narrowboat.

 

The term front well has existed for at least fifty years to my knowledge, and probably much longer, why must people invent new descriptions when a perfectly adequate one already exists?

 

Edited to add:- Your final sentence defining cratch is correct, as I understand it.

I've never heard the term "front well" - fore well possibly, but I doubt anyone would use that to describe the area referred to on a narrowboat. In my experience it is routinely called a cockpit.

 

However, in an attempt to further my education, can you point to examples of where the term front well is/has been used?

[nicknorman]

For me it's "well deck". "Cockpit", apart from being something in my aircraft, is the bit on a cruiser where the steering wheel is. Although yachts can have cockpits with a tiller rather than a wheel. But anyway, in both the aircraft case and the boat case, it's the bit that you occupy whilst driving. Not normally done from the front in a narrowboat, although there are exceptions.

Edited January 22, 2014 by nicknorman

[David Schweizer]

I've never heard the term "front well" - fore well possibly, but I doubt anyone would use that to describe the area referred to on a narrowboat. In my experience it is routinely called a cockpit.

 

However, in an attempt to further my education, can you point to examples of where the term front well is/has been used?I can assure you that the u

 

I can assure you that the term front well has been in use for a very long time, AFAIK it is not one from working boat practice, but was certainly being used in the 1960's to describe the open area of hull ahead of the cabin bulkhead on converted ex-working boats. Like a lot of other terms, finding them in print could be a challenge, in fact many terms that i learnt in the 1960's seem to have fallen out of use in recent years, with some being replaced by new descriptions, a matter which has been compounded by modern writers inventing words to describe a feature because they did not know the original; term.

Edited January 22, 2014 by David Schweizer

[Staarek]

If, as you say, the boat is only 4 months old. get the builder to sort it under guarantee.

 

My 1998 Liverpool boat has a built in water tank at the bow and the wall between the tank and little cupboard space under the deck is all spray foam insulated, although thinly in places . This has stayed dry.

The builder needs to replace the bulkhead and insulate the tank from the heat.

 

James

 

Again, thanks to everyone for your input, it's much appreciated.

 

Well yes, we are still covered by warranty but we cannot really count on the boat builder.

 

I removed the middle panel again, and it seems there is quite a bit of bare steel. On the actual bulkhead there is no insulation approx. 10-15 inches from the floor and this seems to condense a lot. Everything above that is spray foamed and seems dry. Also, the entire below deck area, up to the bulkead is left unisolated. Looking at the bottom of the deck from the inside (just above the water tank) it is very wet (loads of water drops, that eventually end up on the top of the tank), that makes me wonder if it’s caused by actual water in the tank, or there is already water in the bilge that causes condensation. I am in the process of getting a boat fitter to have a look into the problem and getting some quotes for the remedials but your contributions are much appreciated as I am quite out of cash at the moment and I want to know that I am paying for the right thing.

[Ex- Member]

 

Again, thanks to everyone for your input, it's much appreciated.

 

Well yes, we are still covered by warranty but we cannot really count on the boat builder.

 

I removed the middle panel again, and it seems there is quite a bit of bare steel. On the actual bulkhead there is no insulation approx. 10-15 inches from the floor and this seems to condense a lot. Everything above that is spray foamed and seems dry. Also, the entire below deck area, up to the bulkead is left unisolated. Looking at the bottom of the deck from the inside (just above the water tank) it is very wet (loads of water drops, that eventually end up on the top of the tank), that makes me wonder if it’s caused by actual water in the tank, or there is already water in the bilge that causes condensation. I am in the process of getting a boat fitter to have a look into the problem and getting some quotes for the remedials but your contributions are much appreciated as I am quite out of cash at the moment and I want to know that I am paying for the right thing.

 

Why not get the boat builder to sort it out. It's not a point of counting on him, he has a responsibility to put things right.

 

That does seem to be a lot of moisture you're describing. There shouldn't be water in the bilges at that point or any other. Have you checked for water in the bilges in the back cabin? The tank could be leaking and water getting trapped somewhere and being soaked up hence the damp in the photo's.

 

Hope the boat fitters can sort it for you. Who was your boat builder BTW might be useful for other members to know, because this really shouldn't be happening in a new boat.

[Neil2]

For me it's "well deck". "Cockpit", apart from being something in my aircraft, is the bit on a cruiser where the steering wheel is. Although yachts can have cockpits with a tiller rather than a wheel. But anyway, in both the aircraft case and the boat case, it's the bit that you occupy whilst driving. Not normally done from the front in a narrowboat, although there are exceptions.

 

 

I can assure you that the term front well has been in use for a very long time, AFAIK it is not one from working boat practice, but was certainly being used in the 1960's to describe the open area of hull ahead of the cabin bulkhead on converted ex-working boats. Like a lot of other terms, finding them in print could be a challenge, in fact many terms that i learnt in the 1960's seem to have fallen out of use in recent years, with some being replaced by new descriptions, a matter which has been compounded by modern writers inventing words to describe a feature because they did not know the original; term.

First I should apologise to the OP for going off topic .

 

On reflection I think I agree the use of the word cockpit to describe the recessed area below the side decks at the bow is incorrect, it should refer to the steering station, wherever that happens to be.

 

However, the word is rightly or wrongly in common use to describe any open area below the side decks, and it may well be that "modern" writers have adopted it as such because they didn't know what else to call it. Probably the same reason folk use the word "cratch", again incorrectly.

 

If we take river/sea boats as a comparison, there is rarely such a feature to describe, so there probably isn't an accepted nautical word.

 

But I will take David's assurance on trust and think in future I will call it a front or fore well.

 

I'm still using port and starboard though...

[David Schweizer]

 

First I should apologise to the OP for going off topic .

 

On reflection I think I agree the use of the word cockpit to describe the recessed area below the side decks at the bow is incorrect, it should refer to the steering station, wherever that happens to be.

 

However, the word is rightly or wrongly in common use to describe any open area below the side decks, and it may well be that "modern" writers have adopted it as such because they didn't know what else to call it. Probably the same reason folk use the word "cratch", again incorrectly.

 

If we take river/sea boats as a comparison, there is rarely such a feature to describe, so there probably isn't an accepted nautical word.

 

But I will take David's assurance on trust and think in future I will call it a front or fore well.

 

I'm still using port and starboard though...

 

Now you are trying to wind me up!

[Staarek]

 

Why not get the boat builder to sort it out. It's not a point of counting on him, he has a responsibility to put things right.

 

That does seem to be a lot of moisture you're describing. There shouldn't be water in the bilges at that point or any other. Have you checked for water in the bilges in the back cabin? The tank could be leaking and water getting trapped somewhere and being soaked up hence the damp in the photo's.

 

Hope the boat fitters can sort it for you. Who was your boat builder BTW might be useful for other members to know, because this really shouldn't be happening in a new boat.

 

I absolutely understand where you are coming from, however we had many issues with the boat since the delivery in September and even though we have reported them on numerous occasions, the boat builder has decided to do nothing about them. We have been just constantly ignored. I understand that you cannot test everything 100% in the boat yard and I can accept some things going wrong but the boat builder should respond to the guarantee and address the issues and not completely ignore a client that they have billed a large sum of money. Same as we will for this issue, we have had to pay 3rd parties to address issues that have emerged from day one. A disgrace really.

 

Going back to the issue, there isn’t any water in the bilges in the back cabin. It made me think though, maybe we’ve got rainwater entering the under deck area through locker (which is covered though) which is located at the front of the deck where the access to the bow thruster is. There is a small void where the cables from the isolator switch are being run to the thruster and since there isn’t a full bulkhead dividing thruster and under deck/water tank area maybe that is where some water travels through? I cannot think it would be a massive amount but I would have to double check it. (See pic.)

 

The builders are Bluewater Boats from Warwickshire

[nicknorman]

Staarek, I know it's easy for us to say this from the comfort of our arm chairs, but really you shouldn't be letting the boatbuilder get away with ignoring you. They are a reasonably well known builder with a reputation (or not) to protect. Perhaps you are being too nice to them? At the very least you should be presenting the bills for remedial work to them, and then going to the small claims court if they decline to pay.

 

That photo shows a lot of water dripping from above, surely there must be rainwater getting in somewhere and it is evaporating and then condensing on the colder bits of steel. You really need to address the source of the water before more damage is done. Are you sure there are no leaks from the water tank and its immediate fittings?

 

Is that a gas pipe on the left there with wires attached to it? If so I would be a bit nervous about the quality of the gas work done. Bearing in mind that you will need a Boat Safety Certificate in 3 1/2 yrs time, it might be advisable to have one done now, or at least get a surveyor's report. If the boat has not been built in accordance with the recreational craft directive, the builder is acting unlawfully, and the sooner you address it the better.

 

Edit: actually looking again I don't think it's a gas pipe.

Edited January 22, 2014 by nicknorman

[Ex- Member]

Agree with Nick, If they ignore you go direct to trading standards, it's totally unacceptable.

 

That's is a lot of water, there is something very wrong.

 

Just some suggestions.

 

Is this happening on sunny days. If the cratch area is a dark colour it will absorb heat, the internal area the opposite and condensate.

 

Or is this occurring when raining, or all the time.

 

It does look like a big tank so holding a large mass of cold water, lack of ventilation could also be a factor.

 

Just throwing stuff into the pot that might help in diagnosis.

[Staarek]

Staarek, I know it's easy for us to say this from the comfort of our arm chairs, but really you shouldn't be letting the boatbuilder get away with ignoring you. They are a reasonably well known builder with a reputation (or not) to protect. Perhaps you are being too nice to them? At the very least you should be presenting the bills for remedial work to them, and then going to the small claims court if they decline to pay.

 

That photo shows a lot of water dripping from above, surely there must be rainwater getting in somewhere and it is evaporating and then condensing on the colder bits of steel. You really need to address the source of the water before more damage is done. Are you sure there are no leaks from the water tank and its immediate fittings?

 

Is that a gas pipe on the left there with wires attached to it? If so I would be a bit nervous about the quality of the gas work done. Bearing in mind that you will need a Boat Safety Certificate in 3 1/2 yrs time, it might be advisable to have one done now, or at least get a surveyor's report. If the boat has not been built in accordance with the recreational craft directive, the builder is acting unlawfully, and the sooner you address it the better.

 

Edit: actually looking again I don't think it's a gas pipe.

 

I can confirm it's not a gas pipe, it's one of these multi-core cables. Thruster control i would imagine.

[Bones]

I have quite a lot of condensation under my front well deck. The space is large (larger well deck than most boats) and I have an uninsulated water thank. The condensation that forms under there is quite something and I am watching this thread with interest.

 

In terms of the mould...that is one hell of lot of mould. I really wouldn't expect to see that in any space I was expected to live in.

 

I may have misunderstood, but do you actually have air vents In your doors that let air from the outside to the inside and not behind a lining?

 

The mould is something else. I can't be any use other than to be up in arms on your behalf. It is NOT acceptable on any level!

P.s. If it was rain water coming down the cables then the drops of water on the steel forward of that would not be there. I have been amazed at the amount of condensation that can form where insulation is absent.

[nicknorman]

I can confirm it's not a gas pipe, it's one of these multi-core cables. Thruster control i would imagine.

Ah, just realised this thread is relevant:

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=62452

 

I guess you are already in such a dispute with the builder that they have stopped communicating with you. In the linked thread, you come in for some stick as being an "awkward customer" but I have to say that regardless of all that, the degree of dampness - nay wetness - you are seeing is quite unacceptable and points to some flaw in construction. You have my sympathy!