Gas bubble tester

[Teadaemon]

Hi,

Just want tto know where it says a if you drill a hole and fit a gas tight screw/washer/nut combination in a gas locker it will fail a BSS?

Regards Ray

 

Check 7.2.1

 

Is the cylinder locker, up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves or other high-pressure components, free of any path for leaked LPG to enter the interior of the vessel?

 

...

Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or other high-pressure components where these are higher, the bottom, sides, and seams of every cylinder locker must be free of any:

· holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,

· cracks, splits or de-laminations; or,

· missing or damaged welds at seams; or,

· other signs of damage or deterioration…

…. that can be determined by visual examination to penetrate the locker to the interior of the vessel.

...

 

Now, if I could be certain that a particular fitting rendered a hole to be gas-tight, then I might be inclined not to fail a boat on this check, but I'd have to be certain. Just using a nut, bolt, and washers isn't going to do the job.

[raymondh]

Hi,

I would say that a hole is in fact an "opening", a bolt or other screwed fixing is not, and I would challenge you to prove that such a fixing in an un pressurised locker (it has two great big holes at the bottom) is not gas tight - what pressure are you quoting that would pass through? size and type of fixing/washer? any sealant ?

Your statement should be qualified ? reference to/ or engineering data that states a screwed/bolted fitting is not gastight at x psi etc

I would say it is not uncommon to have screwed fixings in gas lockers and have seen many retaining straps/changeover valves/regulators with screwed fixings in the enclosure even on new boats , However I agree 100% with "no holes"

Regards Ray

[alan_fincher]

 

Just using a nut, bolt, and washers isn't going to do the job.

 

As I said, I'm glad I have always managed to use BSS examiners who make what I consider sensible decisions about what the actual intent of a requirement is, even if the wording can be interpreted in a fully literal way that could produce a quite pointless "fail".

 

I agree with all Ray has said, and wonder how the BSS office would react if someone appealed if a decision to was taken by an examiner to fail a boat where a bolt passes through a bulkhead, but has been fully sealed with something that stops gas passing, (which frankly even a coat of paint would probably do!).

 

If Rob at the BSS Office is watching perhaps he could comment?

[MtB]

fair enough Tea, that makes a bit awkward, I've no idea where I'm gonna get copper pipe that size from round here.

 

Maybe you don't know because you are not a 'competent' gas fitter...

 

Just sayin'!

 

MtB

[Teadaemon]

 

As I said, I'm glad I have always managed to use BSS examiners who make what I consider sensible decisions about what the actual intent of a requirement is, even if the wording can be interpreted in a fully literal way that could produce a quite pointless "fail".

 

I agree with all Ray has said, and wonder how the BSS office would react if someone appealed if a decision to was taken by an examiner to fail a boat where a bolt passes through a bulkhead, but has been fully sealed with something that stops gas passing, (which frankly even a coat of paint would probably do!).

 

If Rob at the BSS Office is watching perhaps he could comment?

 

Perhaps he might, however the wording of the check seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me. Were bolts to be considered as appropriately gas-tight, then I would expect the check to mention that point.

 

Incidentally, had this been a point that had come up in examinations and a boater had successfully appealed a decision to fail their boat on this point, I would expect that the information would have been communicated to me as an examiner, either directly, or through the two organisations that exist for BSS examiners (ABSE and NABSE, I'm a member of both). I have not as yet received such information, which suggests that either the question has not been put to the office, or it has, and the check is regarded as sufficiently clear on the matter.

 

Let's leave the question of BSS compliance for the moment and simply consider the purpose of a gas locker - to prevent any gas leaking from the cylinders or high pressure components of the gas system from entering the interior of the vessel. It seems logical that breaching the gas-tight integrity of the locker and then attempting to reinstate it by sealing the resulting hole is not a particularly good idea, especially when it is easy to achieve the same results (securely mounting parts of the gas system) by methods that do not involve doing that.

[Keeping Up]

If a sheet of steel has a hole in it, and that hole is then rendered impervious to gas by the use of a nut and bolt with appropriate washers and sealant, how could it possibly be regarded as failing the requirement of being gas-tight?

[raymondh]

Never seen a gas tight locker on a boat? dont they have to have bloody great holes at the bottom to let escaping gas out?

 

Good job we dont have any threaded/washered joints on the pressure side of a gas intall?

 

Ray

[alan_fincher]

Incidentally, had this been a point that had come up in examinations and a boater had successfully appealed a decision to fail their boat on this point, I would expect that the information would have been communicated to me as an examiner, either directly, or through the two organisations that exist for BSS examiners (ABSE and NABSE, I'm a member of both). I have not as yet received such information, which suggests that either the question has not been put to the office, or it has, and the check is regarded as sufficiently clear on the matter.

 

Well three different BSS examiners have passed an arrangement on one of my boats without comment, but it appears you as a BSS examiner would have failed me the boat on the point.

 

So I don't think it can be claimed that the position is clear.

 

I have not appealed because none of those 3 examiners seemed to see a sealed bolted hole as a problem, but if one subsequently did, then I would of course put it to the BSS office for a decision.

 

I strongly suspect bolts though a bulkhead as part of either mounting regulators and/or changeover valves, or as part of the restraining mechanisms for the cylinders are not unusual, and that such arrangements are not objected to. I can't prove that though - more of a gut feel, I admit.

[bizzard]

Its amazing when you came to think of it that years ago Calor gas bottles were usually just stood next to the cooker on view in most pleasure boats, caravans, holiday chalets and bungalows ect connected to it with a length of rubber tubing, not out of sight and out of mind though, you were aware of it of course and sensible folk without fail always turned the bottle valve off after every use. I suppose there were some folk that managed to blow themselves to kingdom come with this simple arrangement but probably no more than they do now. The stupid hazardous types would I reckon most likely find a way to blow emselves up whatever installation they have, the type that top up petrol generators whilst running for example.

[Dar Kuma]

 

Maybe you don't know because you are not a 'competent' gas fitter...

 

Just sayin'!

 

MtB

 

II'm currently in a small town Mike, just sayin, if i was in a city then yes, I would, so you need to be a competant gas fitter just to buy copper pipe?

wow. just wow.

 

Perhaps he might, however the wording of the check seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me. Were bolts to be considered as appropriately gas-tight, then I would expect the check to mention that point.

 

especially when it is easy to achieve the same results (securely mounting parts of the gas system) by methods that do not involve doing that.

 

so how do you mount a gas leak detector bearing in mind they come with 2 fixing screws and it must be fixed inside the gas locker?.

 

sorry for double post.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Dar Kuma

[bizzard]

 

II'm currently in a small town Mike, just sayin, if i was in a city then yes, I would, so you need to be a competant gas fitter just to buy copper pipe?

wow. just wow.

 

so how do you mount a gas leak detector bearing in mind they come with 2 fixing screws and it must be fixed inside the gas locker?.

 

sorry for double post.

Stick a wooden pad in there with no nails and screw it to that.

[Dar Kuma]

Stick a wooden pad in there with no nails and screw it to that.

 

That is lazy and unprofessional.

[alan_fincher]

 

That is lazy and unprofessional.

 

Seems like it may be all some BSS examiners will accept, though!

[blackrose]

I would offer some advice but Dar Kuma is a tosser who doesn't appreciate that people are trying to help, so I won't bother.

[Dar Kuma]

I'm a tosser?

 

I want a decent install not a manky piece of wood glued to the side of my locker thanks.

[bizzard]

Or a tailor made welded in bracket for it, with no blow through holes of course. Or drill down from the top say next to the lid assuming the foredeck is higher than any of the gas equipment inside of course and bolt an L shaped bracket up inside hanging down to mount it on.

[Beaker]

I'm a tosser?

 

I want a decent install not a manky piece of wood glued to the side of my locker thanks.

Come on, who's going to see it anyway?

[Dar Kuma]

I will everytime I change the bottle beaker, it just aint right.

[Teadaemon]

 

Well three different BSS examiners have passed an arrangement on one of my boats without comment, but it appears you as a BSS examiner would have failed me the boat on the point.

 

So I don't think it can be claimed that the position is clear.

 

I have not appealed because none of those 3 examiners seemed to see a sealed bolted hole as a problem, but if one subsequently did, then I would of course put it to the BSS office for a decision.

 

I strongly suspect bolts though a bulkhead as part of either mounting regulators and/or changeover valves, or as part of the restraining mechanisms for the cylinders are not unusual, and that such arrangements are not objected to. I can't prove that though - more of a gut feel, I admit.

 

Do bear in mind that the checks regarding gas lockers were one of the areas that changed quite a lot when the current (2013) checks replaced the 2005 (and indeed 2002) checks.

 

At the end of the day, all I as a BSS examiner want to do is apply the checks in a manner that's consistent with other examiners, and with what the BSS office (and by extension the technical and management committees) considers to be the correct interpretation. Were I to see such a situation on a boat I was examining, there's nothing to stop me from asking the BSS office if they agree with my interpretation of the check. If they tell me it's ok, then I'd have no problems passing it. If they tell me it's not ok, then I'm not going to pass it. My personal opinions (that it's intrinsically a bad idea) have no bearing whatsoever on the situation.

 

 

 

so how do you mount a gas leak detector bearing in mind they come with 2 fixing screws and it must be fixed inside the gas locker?.

 

Well if it were my gas locker, I'd glue a wooden backing board to the inside of the locker with epoxy resin (as this adheres well to both wood and bare metal), and then screw the bubble tester and any other components that need to be fixed in place to that.

[Dar Kuma]

fantastic, glueing combustable materials inside a gas locker, nice going, I thought this was for a safety cert?

[Ex- Member]

fantastic, glueing combustable materials inside a gas locker, nice going, I thought this was for a safety cert?

 

I have to say you really are a complete idiot and completely clueless. I'm amazed anyone has bothered to offer you help at all. You've even called someone a moron earlier in this thread.

 

The only moron I see is you being negative about every reasonable suggestion made by members, you come over as something akin to a spoilt brat, I suggest you start trolling through Yellow pages for someone to come out and fit this for you, instead of trolling here.

[alan_fincher]

If you think a six inch square of wood glued to a bulkhead would add to your problems of you had flames in a gas locker you are seriously out of touch.

 

Do you imagine that the hoses connecting cylinders to boat would come through it unscathed?

[Teadaemon]

fantastic, glueing combustable materials inside a gas locker, nice going, I thought this was for a safety cert?

 

Well it's perfectly permissible to construct the entire gas locker from GRP, or wood with a lining of GRP, so a small lump of plywood glued inside a steel gas locker isn't really a big deal.

 

After all, if the temperature inside the gas locker gets anywhere near the point where wood will catch fire, the pressure release on the cylinders will already have operated, so the gas locker will be (briefly) full of gas, far more combustible than wood.

 

The requirements for gas lockers are essentially that they're gas-tight apart from the drains, which should provide a clear path overboard. Things inside gas lockers should not be capable of damaging any part of the gas system, or be a source of ignition, but there's no problem if they're combustible (indeed often the other thing that should be stored in a gas locker is petrol, if it's present on board, and that's pretty combustible).

[MtB]

It's a shame Dar Kuma doesn't feel brave enough to put his boat name on his profile, as with attitudes like his I'd quite like to avoid mooring anywhere near it.

 

MtB

 

 

One thing about Teadaemon's comments bothers me though.

 

If drilling a fixing hole through a gas locker wall and sealing the fixing is not acceptable, how come the gas pipe passing out through a hole drilled in the locker wall via the bulkhead fitting is acceptable?

 

Or maybe it isn't any longer. Now what?

 

MtB

 

 

 

(Edit to correct a spellin' mistake.)

Edited November 6, 2013 by Mike the Boilerman

[Teadaemon]

It's a shame Dar Kuma doesn't feel brave enough to put his boat name on his profile, as with attitudes like his I'd quite like to avoid mooring anywhere near it.

 

MtB

 

 

One thing about Teadaemon's comments bothers me though.

 

If drilling a fixing hole through a gas locker wall and sealing the fixing is not acceptable, how come the gas pipe passing out through a hole drilled in the locker wall via the bulkhead fitting is acceptable?

 

Or maybe it isn't any longer. Now what?

 

MtB

 

 

 

(Edit to correct a spellin' mistake.)

 

 

That's a different check (7.2.2):

 

Are the sealing arrangements on pipework exiting the cylinder locker of the correct type to ensure LPG-tightness and in good condition?

 

...

Pipework must exit LPG cylinder lockers through either, a bulkhead fitting, or a cable gland fitting, or be above the LPG-tight level.

...

 

I'm not responsible for the development of the checks, but I suspect that there is a difference because a gas locker needs to have a pipe going out of it if it's going to be of any use, it doesn't need to have anything bolted through the sides.