Stop EU banning red diesel use for Narrowboats. sign UGov petition here

[GUMPY]

All very well putting in a separate tank for white/red, but what about running the engine for charging. You couldn't run the engine from the red tank!

My engine is my provider of 230V, and my battery charger. I don't want to buy a genny, noisy and no where to put it.

In that case your boat is not future proof.

Time for a redesign I did mine in 2004 added new diesel tank and diesel genset.

Sold the boat last year.

My engine is also my source of power now, when away from the moorings, but at <1.5l/hr its hardly worth worrying about.

 

I do feel that there is a lot of NB owners whinging about this when their diesel use is miniscule compared to some of the big offshore boats.

[furnessvale]

Not strictly true. For the past few years Customs and Excise have taken to turning up at steam rallies more and more often. Originally they would do standard roadside checks on road vehicles to try and catch people running on red.

 

More recently they have set their sights on the owners of Vintage Tractors. People who are not registered as a farmer, forester or smallholder by trade, and are using red in a tractor have been reported and threatened with action.

 

I don't know if anyone has been prosecuted.

I think you misunderstand what HMRC are checking. They are looking for people using vintage tractors ON ROAD RUNS or bringing them to the show by road on their own wheels. There is no requirement to use white diesel in a leisure vehicle (or vintage tractor etc) that does not venture onto public roads. Unlike boats of course and I stress again it has been singled out as the only surface leisure transport which never goes on a public road that has to pay full rate duty on its propulsion fuel.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[carlt]

Unlike boats of course and I stress again it has been singled out as the only surface leisure transport which never goes on a public road that has to pay full rate duty on its propulsion fuel.

It does venture out onto a publicly funded transport network though just likea road vehicle.

[furnessvale]

It does venture out onto a publicly funded transport network though just likea road vehicle.

OK, I give up.

 

I am quite amazed that there are boaters who believe that what has happened is just. I hope they will continue to believe in justice when the EU introduces the next two stages of its masterplan i.e. full VAT and the complete elimination of red from pleasure boats no matter what the intended use.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[carlt]

OK, I give up.

 

I hope they will continue to believe in justice when the EU introduces the next two stages of its masterplan i.e. full VAT and the complete elimination of red from pleasure boats no matter what the intended use.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Unless they eliminate low duty on heating oil entirely, including for houses, then spreading rumours of yet another "EU masterplan" is just more euroseptic hysteria.

 

I personally cannot see why private boating has been exempt from full propulsion duty at all and "justice" really doesn't come into it but "fairness" is more the issue.

 

It would seem that diesel powered boats are finally coming into line with all the boats out there who have always been paying full duty for their fuel...petrol powered vessels.

[Doorman]

I don't see boaters paying extra tax on their propulsion diesel as a human rights issue, to be honest so I'm not sure of the relevance here but It's funny how the ECHR runs along quite happily with just a few controversial cases used to attack it.

 

Perhaps they need to make a bigger thing of all the good they've done to counter the mere handful of cases the naysayers latch on to.

 

I also happen to think that £1.7 million is a small price to pay to see justice is done without having to stoop to the level of Qatada and his supporters and acting illegally.

 

Qatada has been extradited having gone through the due process of ensuring that his rights have not been abused and I think this is far better than bundling him into a plane and making him a martyr and victim.

 

Money well spent!

£1.7 million to ensure that the due process has been adhered to? Money well spent?

 

Come on Carl, as a Yorkshireman that can't really be your stance on such a wasteful and unnecessary process and cost to rid this country of yet another extremist living on taxpayer's money. I'm certain that the rest of Europe look upon us as a laughing stock for being overly tolerant of such charades.

 

My introduction of the famed ECHR was simply another example of how we are dictated to by others on subjects that don't directy affect them. Had all of this interference been foreseen at the inception of the Common Market, I wonder whether the British electorate would have been so enthusiastic to become embroiled within it. Recent economic disasters are an indicator of 'the benefits' of being a member of the Brussels dictatorship.

[carlt]

£1.7 million to ensure that the due process has been adhered to? Money well spent?

.

Absolutely!

 

Tyranny is cheap and we could have resorted to extraordinary rendition, bag over the head, off to Jordan stopping off at Croatia on the way for a bit of waterboarding.

 

Being better than these people costs money and, as far as I'm concerned it is well worth it.

 

What I find strange is the same people that think we should have circumvented the legal process are the same ones who spread the propaganda about Sharia law.

 

If you want a system that ignores human rights, condones torture and barbaric punishment then go and live in a fundamentalist Muslim country where they already have all that stuff.

 

I love irony.

Recent economic disasters are an indicator of 'the benefits' of being a member of the Brussels dictatorship.

Recent economic disasters are an indicator of the abject failure of 34 years of monetarist economic policy, nothing to do with Europe.

[Doorman]

 

If you want a system that ignores human rights, condones torture and barbaric punishment then go and live in a fundamentalist Muslim country where they already have all that stuff.

 

 

I already do! Lol

 

I love humour.

[Doorman]

 

 

Recent economic disasters are an indicator of the abject failure of 34 years of monetarist economic policy, nothing to do with Europe.

How ironic then that the countries whom appear to be suffering the most from this monetarist economic policy are also members of the European Union!

[carlt]

How ironic then that the countries whom appear to be suffering the most from this monetarist economic policy are also members of the European Union!

 

Japan with their 20 year recession?

 

Shurely not.

 

and how have they stimulated recovery from their monetarist fuelled disaster?...By adopting Keynesian policies to stimulate growth, reduce unemployment and get their economy working again.

[onionbargee]

i'm running on Kerosene

[furnessvale]

i'm running on Kerosene

Which is rebated fuel and will be just as illegal as red.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[onionbargee]

DOH !!

[Hawkmoth]

 

Why should boats be a special case?

 

Because:

They don't make their home in the cab.

 

In most cases they add this to their running costs which they charge their customers for. It's a business.

 

Why should we pay differently just because we either couldn't afford to have a genny fitted or made the decision to have an engine driven generator based on the knowledge at the time?

 

Just because those Eurocrates see expensive yachts as a toy to be eliminated, or a cash cow. Our lifestyle is different.

Bob

In that case your boat is not future proof.

Time for a redesign I did mine in 2004 added new diesel tank and diesel genset.

Sold the boat last year.

My engine is also my source of power now, when away from the moorings, but at <1.5l/hr its hardly worth worrying about.

 

I do feel that there is a lot of NB owners whinging about this when their diesel use is miniscule compared to some of the big offshore boats.

Wow! What's it like to perfect/rich.?

I don't mean you're a millionaire, just that to fork out that sort of money as a retrofit must mean you're not short of a bob or two. Not all of us are that lucky.

I suppose the next answer will be: Tough luck! If you can't afford the new changed rules, get out of the game! That'll do a lot for the canals, Won't it?

Bob

[carlt]

Because:

They don't make their home in the cab.

 

In most cases they add this to their running costs which they charge their customers for. It's a business.

 

 

So what?

 

You don't have to pay the extra duty for domestic fuel, you will have the option of fitting a domestic fuel tank, just like I chose to rather than pay for the more expensive option in my rural cottage.

 

You have to weigh up whether it is worth fitting a second tank or paying for the more expensive fuel, just like those with petrol fuelled engines have always done.

 

The fact is boaters who have diesel engines have been let off what others have had to pay and the system is finally catching up with them.

 

Tough! Get over it and adapt.

[Hawkmoth]

So what?

 

You don't have to pay the extra duty for domestic fuel, you will have the option of fitting a domestic fuel tank, just like I chose to rather than pay for the more expensive option in my rural cottage.

 

You have to weigh up whether it is worth fitting a second tank or paying for the more expensive fuel, just like those with petrol fuelled engines have always done.

 

The fact is boaters who have diesel engines have been let off what others have had to pay and the system is finally catching up with them.

 

Tough! Get over it and adapt.

What a load of b********.

1. Fitting a separate tank won't get over the main engine being the generator.

2 They went into that knowing what the cost was. We didn't, it's being imposed on us by another government For what purpose? Who knows?

​3 Let off!!! It was the rules at the time, and as I've said those with road going vehicles knew the cost and factored it in. They made a choice. So did we, but the goal posts were moved. If there was purpose to the change which would do some good we might accept it, grumpy, but could see some good from it. The amount London or Brussels will see from the change will be a drop in the ocean to them, but it means a lot in % terms to the little guy.

The canals may well become the playground for the well heeled. Fewer boats, paying more. Great, I hope you enjoy it.

[carlt]

 

The canals may well become the playground for the well heeled. Fewer boats, paying more. Great, I hope you enjoy it.

My boat cost £2250 and I got the second tank from the scrap pile at a boatyard...hardly "well heeled" but yes, I do enjoy it and having to adapt to changes won't stop me either.

 

My heels are holding up nicely but not on a huge budget.

 

It may have been the rules at the time but diesel engined boats were still getting something for less than Petrol powered ones.

 

Rules change and, in this case, I think bringing diesel boats into line with other vehicles is the right thing to do.

 

You may think the amount of revenue won't be much but this is just the narrow minded narrowboat view.

 

Narrowboats are a minority of the leisure boats out there and it's not just narrowboats that will have to come into line.

 

The advantage with a narrowboat is, of course. that they have more space to fit a second tank.

[Hawkmoth]

 

The advantage with a narrowboat is, of course. that they have more space to fit a second tank.

?????????

Bob

[carlt]

?????????

Bob

Unlike proper boats narrowboats are built with space a priority over aesthetics.

 

I had to lose the calorifier in order to accommodate my second tank but compromises have to be made when you choose to have a more shapely boat than the standard clonecraft narrowboat.

[Hawkmoth]

Unlike proper boats narrowboats are built with space a priority over aesthetics.

 

I had to lose the calorifier in order to accommodate my second tank but compromises have to be made when you choose to have a more shapely boat than the standard clonecraft narrowboat.

OK Carl.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Well Done on your foresight, but I hope we don't need it.

Bob

[GUMPY]

 

 

 

Why should we pay differently just because we either couldn't afford to have a genny fitted or made the decision to have an engine driven generator based on the knowledge at the time?

 

Just because those Eurocrates see expensive yachts as a toy to be eliminated, or a cash cow. Our lifestyle is different

 

 

Wow! What's it like to perfect/rich.?

I don't mean you're a millionaire, just that to fork out that sort of money as a retrofit must mean you're not short of a bob or two. Not all of us are that lucky.

I suppose the next answer will be: Tough luck! If you can't afford the new changed rules, get out of the game! That'll do a lot for the canals, Won't it?

Bob

Not rich but I saw this coming years ago, it was also a lot easier and cheaper in a 60x11'6 barge than a NB, which is why I will lump it on my NB as its not cost effective. Anyone who had had a boat built since 2000 should also have been aware of what will happen to red diesel. I would love to be proved wrong, doesnt happen often, but somehow I doubt it.

as for rich I was made redundant last October and have been surviving on my wits since then and not claiming dole.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Loddon

[Paul C]

Why 2 tanks, for one consumer of fuel (the engine)? It doesn't make sense that a boat should have 2 tanks fitted, if the 'red' diesel tank will also be supplying the same engine as the 'white' diesel tank. Narrowboats don't typically have a separate diesel generator but do typically supply hot water via engine heat.

 

Thus, why sell 2 types of diesel if the buyer is merely able to open/close a valve or two to choose which one to use?

 

Thus, why not just have the buyer declare what they're going to do with the diesel at the point of sale, and pay the tax accordingly - ie the system we have right now?

PS I know some have diesel water heaters (Eberspacher, Webasto) and these can be plumbed for central heating too, and some have diesel space heaters (diesel stove). And a handful have a fixed diesel generator for electricity.

[GUMPY]

Tank 1 feeds the engine.

the fact that you get electricity, hot water etc is not relevant its there for propulsion thats it.

Tank 2 feeds generator, diesel heater etc. if you dont have theses items then you dont need a second tank but there will, just like the rest of the boats in Europe, be no rebates on fuel used from tank 1.

If thhe RYA / IWA etc hadnt come up with the hairbrained split idea it would be much simpler.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Loddon

[Paul C]

Tank 1 feeds the engine.

the fact that you get electricity, hot water etc is not relevant its there for propulsion thats it.

 

 

But its VERY relevant for the majority of narrowboats!

[Rich]

I was made redundant last October

Amazing