refleks 71m yellow flame?

[padz]

I just installed a new firebox in a 71m Refleks diesel heater, seems much better than the old rusty one, no soot coming out of the chimney , but the flame looks pretty much pure yellow, should it be more blue? Any hints or tips?

[koukouvagia]

I just installed a new firebox in a 71m Refleks diesel heater, seems much better than the old rusty one, no soot coming out of the chimney , but the flame looks pretty much pure yellow, should it be more blue? Any hints or tips?

 

A couple of thoughts. Provided you've got a nice clean flue, it may be that the high flame needs adjustment. Do this very gradually, half a turn at a time and let the flame settle for ten minutes or so between adjustments. Also make sure the stove is fully heated up before you start.

The flame should be more or less blue. Do you have a catalyser - looks like a wire cage? These can a be retrofitted and make a huge difference to the quality of the flame.

[padz]

A couple of thoughts. Provided you've got a nice clean flue, it may be that the high flame needs adjustment. Do this very gradually, half a turn at a time and let the flame settle for ten minutes or so between adjustments. Also make sure the stove is fully heated up before you start.

The flame should be more or less blue. Do you have a catalyser - looks like a wire cage? These can a be retrofitted and make a huge difference to the quality of the flame.

 

Hmm,,, the new burner pot came with a sort of metal rings which slots down into the burner pot - would that be a catalyser?

 

I'l give the flue a clean later , see if that helps. Flame is more or less yellow

 

Ta

[mickspangle]

Am I the only one who thought "Christ - a 71 metre flame!!!!"

[boathunter]

Am I the only one who thought "Christ - a 71 metre flame!!!!"

nope.

[padz]

Am I the only one who thought "Christ - a 71 metre flame!!!!"

 

woana these..

 

http://www.refleks-olieovne.dk/default.asp?PageNumber=3475

 

not a quick run away to make some toast......

 

 

should the flame be blue?

[rjasmith]

woana these..

 

http://www.refleks-olieovne.dk/default.asp?PageNumber=3475

 

not a quick run away to make some toast......

 

 

should the flame be blue?

 

Just wondering if you have access to a tech manual for your Refleks 71M? If not you can download it from the Harworth Heating website. This link will take you straight to the relevant manual as a .pdf document.

 

Yes, your flame should be blue (perhaps with little yellow tips but mostly blue!). There's a splendid youtube video link somewhere on the Harworth site that shows the setting up of a Bubble stove (same technology as a Refleks) and then you can see what your flame should look like. Have a wander round the Harworth site - it's very informative. Read some of the manuals on there for the Bubble, they're very well written, not like the Refleks which understandably is slightly "double Danish"! (I love the ref to "Mentholated Spirit" - peppermint flavoured alcohol?).

 

As koukouvagia has said above, you should have a metal catalyst assembly in your burner pot for it to work properly. If you go to the manual I gave the link to above, on page 11 there are sketches of the bits that go in the pot. The fourth sketch down shows a double cylindrical cage - this is the catalyst.

 

Richard

Edited February 18, 2013 by rjasmith

[Ex- Member]

If they're similar to Bubble a yellow flame usually denotes excess fuel. The low and high flame adjusters will sort this. Our Bubble is sensitive though it's taken me quite some time and tweaking to get it right, so I know much about Yellow flame

 

Now I've got it right (I think) It's running really well and burning only 0.16 of a litre on low, 0.2 ltr less that Bubble state so I might not yet be running absolutely perfect or it's better than they state, plenty warm tnough on low though up to -1 OS temp

 

 

Do check everything tthough, A simple loose no on the descaler caused a slight Yellow flame and a slight kink in the door rope caused tthe stove to not operate at maximum output as it was drawing air through the door jam.

[padz]

If they're similar to Bubble a yellow flame usually denotes excess fuel. The low and high flame adjusters will sort this. Our Bubble is sensitive though it's taken me quite some time and tweaking to get it right, so I know much about Yellow flame

 

Now I've got it right (I think) It's running really well and burning only 0.16 of a litre on low, 0.2 ltr less that Bubble state so I might not yet be running absolutely perfect or it's better than they state, plenty warm tnough on low though up to -1 OS temp

 

 

Do check everything tthough, A simple loose no on the descaler caused a slight Yellow flame and a slight kink in the door rope caused tthe stove to not operate at maximum output as it was drawing air through the door jam.

 

Hmm,, just gave the flue a good clean , will have a little fiddle with the high/low screws.

Would old diesel make any difference? The fuel must have been in the main engine tank for about 2 1/2 years.

[Ex- Member]

Hmm,, just gave the flue a good clean , will have a little fiddle with the high/low screws.

Would old diesel make any difference? The fuel must have been in the main engine tank for about 2 1/2 years.

 

Old diesel might be problemaqtic, having said that mine was 5yo at least and burn't ok. I'm now using Kerosene which is slowly diluting down the old diesel each time I fill.

 

When you adjust use small ttweaks, you have to wait 2 minutes per tweak to get the effect/result of the adjusttment, it can be very laborious, I've laid in front or our Bubble for hours trying to get it right. I also fited a bird cowl on Monday I had to lower the high flame diesel flow quite a bit, strangely the low flame remained much the same. We get a lovely glowing Red catalyst and bright Blue flames, no Yellow at all now even when windy, haven't had a gale yet though

[padz]

Old diesel might be problemaqtic, having said that mine was 5yo at least and burn't ok. I'm now using Kerosene which is slowly diluting down the old diesel each time I fill.

 

When you adjust use small ttweaks, you have to wait 2 minutes per tweak to get the effect/result of the adjusttment, it can be very laborious, I've laid in front or our Bubble for hours trying to get it right. I also fited a bird cowl on Monday I had to lower the high flame diesel flow quite a bit, strangely the low flame remained much the same. We get a lovely glowing Red catalyst and bright Blue flames, no Yellow at all now even when windy, haven't had a gale yet though

 

Still no further..

Bled some diesel off, looks doesn't look cloudy after a sitting all day, not sure where to go next. Maybe try a thorough clean of the regulator. I'm also not sure the flue is long enough, it's about 1.5m and has a straight cap, not an "h", just above the deck. Seems to burn OK but I think it ain't right.

First bit of video is after it was running for a good few hours, some soot but not too bad. Second bit is turned up to about 3/4.

 

[rjasmith]

Still no further..

Bled some diesel off, looks doesn't look cloudy after a sitting all day, not sure where to go next. Maybe try a thorough clean of the regulator. I'm also not sure the flue is long enough, it's about 1.5m and has a straight cap, not an "h", just above the deck. Seems to burn OK but I think it ain't right.

First bit of video is after it was running for a good few hours, some soot but not too bad. Second bit is turned up to about 3/4.

 

 

Errm - major problem here! You can't expect it to burn correctly when you open the door and look in to take a video!! The flue draught is instantly killed by doing that and it isn't a fair test of the flame at all. I have a Kabola with a glass window to look through so can check the flame with the door shut. I don't know your Refleks so not sure if you can see the flame with all doors shut ie in normal operating condition.

 

That flame you've videoed is completely wrong! Have you found the video made by Harworth heating of a Bubble stove operating which I suggested you look at in an earlier post?

 

OK I'll give you a link to it

 

Although it's for a Bubble stove, the pot burner arrangement is identical in principle to the Refleks. If you can't get a flame that looks like the one in that video there's clearly a major problem I'm afraid!

 

Richard

[Ex- Member]

Errm - major problem here! You can't expect it to burn correctly when you open the door and look in to take a video!! The flue draught is instantly killed by doing that and it isn't a fair test of the flame at all. I have a Kabola with a glass window to look through so can check the flame with the door shut. I don't know your Refleks so not sure if you can see the flame with all doors shut ie in normal operating condition.

 

That flame you've videoed is completely wrong! Have you found the video made by Harworth heating of a Bubble stove operating which I suggested you look at in an earlier post?

 

OK I'll give you a link to it

 

Although it's for a Bubble stove, the pot burner arrangement is identical in principle to the Refleks. If you can't get a flame that looks like the one in that video there's clearly a major problem I'm afraid!

 

Richard

 

 

 

Rja is right until the door is sealed you'll never attain a Blue flame, it will take a good couple of minutes even if the stove is set up correctly. It will take longer if the stove needs new adjustment or has a fault. Within 5 minutes though I would expect some Blue flame jetting from the circle of holes around the top.

 

You need to shut the door gently on that flame. Let the stove heat up for an hour, during this time

 

If No Blue appears reduce oil flow

 

If the fire roars again reduce air flow

 

Only shut the door when flame is good/well lit as in your video.

 

If flame goes out on shutting the door you probably have a bad air flow situation. there's a inlet vent it will be somewhere below the pot or level with it.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Julynian

[koukouvagia]

Errm - major problem here! You can't expect it to burn correctly when you open the door and look in to take a video!! The flue draught is instantly killed by doing that and it isn't a fair test of the flame at all. I have a Kabola with a glass window to look through so can check the flame with the door shut. I don't know your Refleks so not sure if you can see the flame with all doors shut ie in normal operating condition.

 

That flame you've videoed is completely wrong! Have you found the video made by Harworth heating of a Bubble stove operating which I suggested you look at in an earlier post?

 

OK I'll give you a link to it

 

Although it's for a Bubble stove, the pot burner arrangement is identical in principle to the Refleks. If you can't get a flame that looks like the one in that video there's clearly a major problem I'm afraid!

 

Richard

 

All that Richard says is spot on. I've looked at your video and I'd say the small ventilation holes on the sides of the burner pot are clogged. If I were you I'd dismantle everything - burner pot, regulator, pipework, flue and start from a perfectly clean set up. You'll find it difficult to adjust the high/low flame levels if you've got diesel soaking into all the gunge at the bottom of the burner.

By the way, the spring-like attachment is the catalyser.

It's worth persevering. They are excellent once they've been set up properly. Also, they'll stand a good deal of neglect - for years! -until they suddenly decide enough's enough and you have to clean them properly.

[LEO]

All that Richard says is spot on. I've looked at your video and I'd say the small ventilation holes on the sides of the burner pot are clogged.

It's worth persevering. They are excellent once they've been set up properly. Also, they'll stand a good deal of neglect - for years! -until they suddenly decide enough's enough and you have to clean them properly.

 

Hi,

 

They are good stoves, I lit my Kabola OD4 on the 21st December and turned it off on the 19th Feb, it had been burning continuously with the the minimum of supervision, providing heating and hot water, After running all that time on a very low setting it was hardly 'clogged' up at all.

 

Brilliant!.

 

Leo.

[padz]

Thanks all for taking the time to reply, refleks say the 71m burns with a yellow flame, but I can't see that it should be the way it is, there's a tiny hole in the hot plate so it's possible to see that the flame is yellow even with the lid shut. . Video link i sent refleks didn't work so just sent it again, see what they say. Burner is brand new and the whole thing was taken apart a few days ago when the old burner was replaced. Flue might be a bit on the short side say refleks.

 

one shall persevere...

 

 

Ta

[padz]

Well refleks say flue should be 400mm above the deck - who sells 75mm extension bits? Anyone know? Ta V much.

[Bob the welder]

Am I the only one who thought "Christ - a 71 metre flame!!!!"

me 2. wow 71 mt flame thats big .

[rjasmith]

padz,

 

Don't know if you've seen the other Refleks thread thats running currently but there's a good picture of the flame you should be getting (see post 7 on this thread). Possibly that flame has a bit too much yellow in the tips but it shows a nice lot of blue coming through the top holes in the pot and the catalyser mesh in the middle is glowing at a good red heat (same type as the one in my Kabola). It sounds like your catalyser is the alternative "spring" type as already noted by koukouvagia.

 

Am I right that your stove is in some sort of seagoing yacht rather than a canal boat? I wonder if there is something fundamentally wrong with your flue installation. Getting the correct amount of flue draw is key to the proper operation of a natural draught pot burner stove.

 

I imagine you've already tried to do this but are there any other Refleks 71M users in boats near yours that you can ask to see their installation and compare notes with? I don't think there are many Refleks 71M in canal boats and they look rather different beasts to the more usual Refleks models in CWDF land!

 

Richard

Edited February 24, 2013 by rjasmith

[Ex- Member]

Just took these photo's of our corner bubble. I believe i's running as least 90% + of best possible. I have a round Lava fire brick that sits on that caylist it glows more Red the higher the setting. Stove is currently on low.

 

Yellow flame is rare, needs to be an extremely windy day to cause Yellow flame. We do now have a Bird Cowl which has reduced Yellow flame on windy days.

 

 

[padz]

Thanks for the reply, Richard, flue is the next port of call, it's level with the deck (yes, boat is a yacht and would love to get the stove working at sea) and refleks said 400mm min height above deck. They also said the 71m burns with a yellow flame but I'm sure mine ain't right. There don't seem to be many 71's around so I'm not sure exactly what it should look like. Anyway, need to move the boat this week so once that's done will try and blag a bit of pipe from somewhere just as a flue extension try out and take it from there.

 

Thanks everyone for all the help!! , friendly bunch you ditch crawlers even if your water is a bit on the shallow side

 

 

 

 

padz,

 

Don't know if you've seen the other Refleks thread thats running currently but there's a good picture of the flame you should be getting (see post 7 on this thread). Possibly that flame has a bit too much yellow in the tips but it shows a nice lot of blue coming through the top holes in the pot and the catalyser mesh in the middle is glowing at a good red heat (same type as the one in my Kabola). It sounds like your catalyser is the alternative "spring" type as already noted by koukouvagia.

 

Am I right that your stove is in some sort of seagoing yacht rather than a canal boat? I wonder if there is something fundamentally wrong with your flue installation. Getting the correct amount of flue draw is key to the proper operation of a natural draught pot burner stove.

 

I imagine you've already tried to do this but are there any other Refleks 71M users in boats near yours that you can ask to see their installation and compare notes with? I don't think there are many Refleks 71M in canal boats and they look rather different beasts to the more usual Refleks models in CWDF land!

 

Richard

[rjasmith]

Thanks for the reply, Richard, flue is the next port of call, it's level with the deck (yes, boat is a yacht and would love to get the stove working at sea) and refleks said 400mm min height above deck. They also said the 71m burns with a yellow flame but I'm sure mine ain't right. There don't seem to be many 71's around so I'm not sure exactly what it should look like. Anyway, need to move the boat this week so once that's done will try and blag a bit of pipe from somewhere just as a flue extension try out and take it from there.

 

Thanks everyone for all the help!! , friendly bunch you ditch crawlers even if your water is a bit on the shallow side

 

Well your last sentence above is generally true but maybe you have yet to read the contents of this forum more widely! It can occasionally get remarkably unfriendly contentious! Always remains interesting though!!

 

Just a few more points you might want to check.

 

1. Is your flue pipe straight and vertical (or nearly so) and made out of the proper twin wall stainless steel tube with an insulating airgap between the walls? It can be ordinary single wall but the aim is to keep the flue gases as hot as poss to get max draw in a boat where the flue pipe length is inevitably rather short. Kabola recommend at least 2.5m which is difficult to achieve even in canal boats.

 

Your deck extension should certainly be insulated and preferably have some sort of anti downdraught cowl on the top.

 

2. Looking at Julynian's flame pictures which show a fabulous flame I am reminded about his reported flame improvement in another thread where he found that the door seal was leaky.

 

Is this another problem that you might be suffering from? I know that your Refleks casing is very different from a Bubble but it is vital that all the draw that your flue creates must "suck" entirely through the (unblocked!) holes in the burner pot. None of the draught air must be capable of going "round" the pot as it does when you lift up the top plate to look in. Could it be that somehow your casing is letting draught air round the pot rather than through it?

 

Here's a couple of pictures of my Kabola E5 pot (removed from boiler and catalyser taken out) which shows the holes I mean - ALL of them must be unblocked and ALL the air going up the flue must pass through them.

 

Richard

[Ex- Member]

Well your last sentence above is generally true but maybe you have yet to read the contents of this forum more widely! It can occasionally get remarkably unfriendly contentious! Always remains interesting though!!

 

Just a few more points you might want to check.

 

1. Is your flue pipe straight and vertical (or nearly so) and made out of the proper twin wall stainless steel tube with an insulating airgap between the walls? It can be ordinary single wall but the aim is to keep the flue gases as hot as poss to get max draw in a boat where the flue pipe length is inevitably rather short. Kabola recommend at least 2.5m which is difficult to achieve even in canal boats.

 

Your deck extension should certainly be insulated and preferably have some sort of anti downdraught cowl on the top.

 

2. Looking at Julynian's flame pictures which show a fabulous flame I am reminded about his reported flame improvement in another thread where he found that the door seal was leaky.

 

Is this another problem that you might be suffering from? I know that your Refleks casing is very different from a Bubble but it is vital that all the draw that your flue creates must "suck" entirely through the (unblocked!) holes in the burner pot. None of the draught air must be capable of going "round" the pot as it does when you lift up the top plate to look in. Could it be that somehow your casing is letting draught air round the pot rather than through it?

 

Here's a couple of pictures of my Kabola E5 pot (removed from boiler and catalyser taken out) which shows the holes I mean - ALL of them must be unblocked and ALL the air going up the flue must pass through them.

 

Richard

 

Some good points Our stove door BTW must have been like that from new, until it was put it right the fire naver lit to a Blue flame state as quick as it does now. From lighting the fuel to closing the door we get a Blue flame almost immediately now, within a minuet is selttles a staedy Blue. Before this it would take several minutes, so it does make a big differenct, the stove performs better as well, and we never had such a Blue flame as we do now as in the photo. So checking for air leaks is important as you suggest.

 

I like what i think is the diesel inlet on your pot, (nice and high) I would think the height aids combustion as it's more central to the flame. and would combust far from the bottom of the pot. Just my thoughts.

 

Our pot stays quite clean, Lynn does clean it regularily though, much more than Bubble advise, so hopefully this will help pot life.

[rjasmith]

Some good points Our stove door BTW must have been like that from new, until it was put it right the fire naver lit to a Blue flame state as quick as it does now. From lighting the fuel to closing the door we get a Blue flame almost immediately now, within a minuet is selttles a staedy Blue. Before this it would take several minutes, so it does make a big differenct, the stove performs better as well, and we never had such a Blue flame as we do now as in the photo. So checking for air leaks is important as you suggest.

 

I like what i think is the diesel inlet on your pot, (nice and high) I would think the height aids combustion as it's more central to the flame. and would combust far from the bottom of the pot. Just my thoughts.

 

 

Our pot stays quite clean, Lynn does clean it regularily though, much more than Bubble advise, so hopefully this will help pot life.

 

I think the "diesel inlet" you've seen in my photo is actually the flame failure themocouple tip. Do Bubble stoves not have these to cut off the fuel if the flame goes out?. The actual diesel inlet is the silver coloured pipe entering the bottom of the pot which you can see in the 2nd photo. I think all mfrs burner pots work the same way in this respect.

 

Richard

Edited February 24, 2013 by rjasmith

[Ex- Member]

I think the "diesel inlet" you've seen in my photo is actually the flame failure themocouple tip. Do Bubble stoves not have these to cut off the fuel if the flame goes out?. The actual diesel inlet is the silver coloured pipe entering the bottom of the pot which you can see in the 2nd photo. I think all mfrs burner pots work the same way in this respect.

 

Richard

 

 

 

AHA got you, I don't think the Bubble does have a flame failure, we've only ever had the stove go out in the very early stages of lighting, if you don't wait until it's in full flame it has on a couple of occasions gone out, the pot will fill with diesel if you don't relight immediately or switch off flow. We've had some very fearce gales and storms and it's never gone out once up to speed.