What would you do?

[Greedyheron]

Hi I'm just about to buy my first narrow boat after living on a fibre glass cruiser for 3 years. I have been lurking and reading posts for a while- thank you for all the great ideas.

 

Im going to buy a 1990 53' ex black prince. Semi trad, beta engine. It has been well looked after until recently, the owner became unwell and hasn't been able to maintain the boat as he once did. Survey is done- and not bad. The shell and engine are good, however the polystyrene insulation clearly became detached some time ago so we need to go right back to a bare hull to reinsulate. Also needs new windows, doors and a repaint.

 

There is no 240, a gas boiler that is on its last legs and the water pump and calorifier are knackered

 

I'm seeing this as a good opportunity to start from scratch.

So I'm wondering what experienced narrow boaters would suggest in terms of ...

Insulation- celotex seems a good idea?

Heating- solid fuel stove, mikuni mx40 for hot water and 3 rads, possibly with twin coil calorifier so we can use 240 if needed, maybe linked to engine to so we can heat water off that when the engine is running?

Windows, is it worth going for double glazing. We are thinking about wooden frames- would this look daft?

Traditional Blacking v 2 pack- just can't decide

 

And, well everything else- what would you do if starting again? What would you avoid?

 

We have a marina mooring but hope to spend long periods cruising.

 

Thanks!

 

[/size]

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

What would you avoid?

 

<snip>

 

Buying a boat and tearing the inside out of it.

 

Why not buy the boat, live with it for a while and then decide what modifications you need to do

 

None of our insulation is fixed to the hull - that isn't how it was built

 

Richard

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

Buying a boat and tearing the inside out of it.

 

Why not buy the boat, live with it for a while and then decide what modifications you need to do

 

None of our insulation is fixed to the hull - that isn't how it was built

 

Richard

 

I agree. (I'm RLWP's other half so you might think I would )

 

When we bought Tawny Owl we had all sorts of plans as to what we should rip out and rebuild. However we couldn't afford to do it straight away and I'm glad now that was the case.

 

We don't live on her so it's not quite as urgent, we once we'd lived with her for a while we found that some of our wonderful plans wouldn't work for us, and other things would be better.

 

So She's changed slowly over the years and we've been happy with that.

 

Sue

[Greedyheron]

Hi and thank you. We had hoped that behind the white plastic looking stuff on the walls there would be ply or something but there isn't. Not to knock anyone else's taste but white plastic is not to mine. So I want to replace it whilst its easy to do. So I need to reline.

During my lurking on here I saw a variety of posts saying the insulation should be attached to the metal to prevent condensation, is that not necessary? Possibly a stupid question but I'm used to GRP rather than steel so I have lots to learn

[RLWP]

We have polystyrene sheet as insulation, the current way is sprayfoam (which is better)

 

Please, consider carefully what you are doing. In a weekend you will have all the lining out of the boat. Bet you a quid you won't have half of it back in a year later and be wondering what to do with your floating millstone

 

Buy your boat, go boating. Then carefully think about what you need to do

 

Richard

[Ex- Member]

Hi I'm just about to buy my first narrow boat after living on a fibre glass cruiser for 3 years. I have been lurking and reading posts for a while- thank you for all the great ideas.

 

Im going to buy a 1990 53' ex black prince. Semi trad, beta engine. It has been well looked after until recently, the owner became unwell and hasn't been able to maintain the boat as he once did. Survey is done- and not bad. The shell and engine are good, however the polystyrene insulation clearly became detached some time ago so we need to go right back to a bare hull to reinsulate. Also needs new windows, doors and a repaint.

 

There is no 240, a gas boiler that is on its last legs and the water pump and calorifier are knackered

 

I'm seeing this as a good opportunity to start from scratch.

So I'm wondering what experienced narrow boaters would suggest in terms of ...

Insulation- celotex seems a good idea?

Heating- solid fuel stove, mikuni mx40 for hot water and 3 rads, possibly with twin coil calorifier so we can use 240 if needed, maybe linked to engine to so we can heat water off that when the engine is running?

Windows, is it worth going for double glazing. We are thinking about wooden frames- would this look daft?

Traditional Blacking v 2 pack- just can't decide

 

And, well everything else- what would you do if starting again? What would you avoid?

 

We have a marina mooring but hope to spend long periods cruising.

 

Thanks!

 

[/size]

 

 

 

You might not need to rip eveyhing out, cavitys can be filled wih sprayfoam. I assume a survey has been done, but IMO any builder or boat fitter who fits polystyrene insulation must be a bit of a cheapskate so wouldn't trust much the overal quality of he fit out. Its also likely that a lott of condensation has been produced behind the linings and there could be a lot of areas with surface rust internally. So maybe ripping it all out is a good choice. If so don't compromise on insulattion, have it sprayfoamed at a minimum 2 inch hick, nothing less.

 

Celotex or Kingspan would be ok, bu you really need to ensure its adhered to the shell, I would also go around the edges and ribbing with tins of sprayfoam to ensure every crevice is filled in and it will secure the insulation firmly in place.

 

Hi and thank you. We had hoped that behind the white plastic looking stuff on the walls there would be ply or something but there isn't. Not to knock anyone else's taste but white plastic is not to mine. So I want to replace it whilst its easy to do. So I need to reline.

During my lurking on here I saw a variety of posts saying the insulation should be attached to the metal to prevent condensation, is that not necessary? Possibly a stupid question but I'm used to GRP rather than steel so I have lots to learn

 

 

I rest my case

Edited February 11, 2013 by Julynian

[casper ghost]

Its also likely that a lott of condensation has been produced behind the linings and there could be a lot of areas with surface rust internally. So maybe ripping it all out is a good choice. If so don't compromise on insulattion, have it sprayfoamed at a minimum 2 inch hick, nothing less.

You're being a bit of a doom munger... My boat has poly sheet inslation, I fitted it myself and after 10 years, when I ripped out the back 12 feet of lining to fit a back cabin, the steel was like new with no real rusting and the wood was all dry with no signs of rot or damp. Yes, spray foam is obviously better, but in 2000 when I did my boat, the poly sheet costs were £150 ish whereas the then spray foam price was quoted as way over £1000.

Casp'

[Ex- Member]

You're being a bit of a doom munger... My boat has poly sheet inslation, I fitted it myself and after 10 years, when I ripped out the back 12 feet of lining to fit a back cabin, the steel was like new with no real rusting and the wood was all dry with no signs of rot or damp. Yes, spray foam is obviously better, but in 2000 when I did my boat, the poly sheet costs were £150 ish whereas the then spray foam price was quoted as way over £1000.

Casp'

 

 

Where fited properly and fully filling the cavety im sure it would suffice, but Ive seen quite a few old boats being restored and the ones insulated in the poly have been a total nightmare behind the linings with a flimsy 1" sheets of poly. Even worse though are boats that were insulated with fibreglass wool, it all ends up in a soggy pile in the botom of he cavity.

[Greedyheron]

Ok maybe I should be less gung ho and take a look behind the poly to see if all is well, if it is leave it, if not replace? It will fall off anyway when I take the plastic off.

Anything else to do/avoid? The water/ heating system needs sorting before I move on - any tips?

[Ex- Member]

Ok maybe I should be less gung ho and take a look behind the poly to see if all is well, if it is leave it, if not replace? It will fall off anyway when I take the plastic off.

Anything else to do/avoid? The water/ heating system needs sorting before I move on - any tips?

 

 

 

Yeah a good inspecttion, choose a small area. If the boat is lined witth some kind of plasttic material, then unless he insulattion fills the cavity fully it's likely that the plastic could have condensated on the inside. his is whe sprayfoam is preferred, not only has it the ghighest insulation value it adheres to the hull making it impossible to condensate. Spray foam has to be applied properly though, on mos boas it isn't.

 

Heating is a preferential thing, tthere planty tto choose from. We have Bubble stove with backboiler and 4 rads. 60 x 10/6 widebeam and plenty hot enough. Hot water via calorifier heated by engine Bubble sttove and will be fitting a solar collector in the summer. Wha you have sounds ok, might just need a good servicing.

[canals are us?]

Hi I'm just about to buy my first narrow boat after living on a fibre glass cruiser for 3 years. I have been lurking and reading posts for a while- thank you for all the great ideas.

 

Im going to buy a 1990 53' ex black prince. Semi trad, beta engine. It has been well looked after until recently, the owner became unwell and hasn't been able to maintain the boat as he once did. Survey is done- and not bad. The shell and engine are good, however the polystyrene insulation clearly became detached some time ago so we need to go right back to a bare hull to reinsulate. Also needs new windows, doors and a repaint.

 

There is no 240, a gas boiler that is on its last legs and the water pump and calorifier are knackered

 

I'm seeing this as a good opportunity to start from scratch.

So I'm wondering what experienced narrow boaters would suggest in terms of ...

Insulation- celotex seems a good idea?

Heating- solid fuel stove, mikuni mx40 for hot water and 3 rads, possibly with twin coil calorifier so we can use 240 if needed, maybe linked to engine to so we can heat water off that when the engine is running?

Windows, is it worth going for double glazing. We are thinking about wooden frames- would this look daft?

Traditional Blacking v 2 pack- just can't decide

 

And, well everything else- what would you do if starting again? What would you avoid?

 

We have a marina mooring but hope to spend long periods cruising.

 

Thanks!

 

[/size]

 

Hi, I'm very new to narrowboat ownership. I'm hoping you can do alot of the work yourself as if not you may be better to buy another one with less work?

I would list things needed and cost the materials and labour. You may of wished youd bought a new sailaway or newer boat in the end?

 

For heating I would just install a solid fuel stove with backboiler option and rads infuture from it. At least installing a solid fuel stove your boat is warm and cosy. As a liveaboard if your replacing the windows anyway why not double glaze. For 7 of my windows I was quoted £2,500 so not at the moment. My single glazed windows do let the cold in.

If your starting again I would definately get sprayfoam insulation.

 

Good luck. James

 

James

Edited February 11, 2013 by canals are us?

[Greedyheron]

Yeah a good inspecttion, choose a small area. If the boat is lined witth some kind of plasttic material, then unless he insulattion fills the cavity fully it's likely that the plastic could have condensated on the inside. his is whe sprayfoam is preferred, not only has it the ghighest insulation value it adheres to the hull making it impossible to condensate. Spray foam has to be applied properly though, on mos boas it isn't.

 

Heating is a preferential thing, tthere planty tto choose from. We have Bubble stove with backboiler and 4 rads. 60 x 10/6 widebeam and plenty hot enough. Hot water via calorifier heated by engine Bubble sttove and will be fitting a solar collector in the summer. Wha you have sounds ok, might just need a good servicing.

 

Thanks that sounds like a plan.

Sadly what we have is a dying gas boiler but what we think after much head scratching might be best is a mikuni, so long as we learn how to take it apart and fix it regularly from what I hear. Although, taking the advice to live on board for a while and see, it seems wise to fit a solid fuel stove and then see what else we need. We defiantly need the solid fuel stove, I took mine out to fit a kitchen 2 years ago and miss it. We could also use the gas boiler for a while longer.I currently have neither heating nor hot water so a stove will be a luxury in itself as will being able to stand up straight!

 

I do have an ace up my sleeve being a partner who is a carpenter, with the possibility of time off work and a budget. He's considering making the window frames which would cut down the cost, he did two frames for my current boat , at 2 years old they don't leak. Would wood frames on a narrow boat look odd?

[Ally]

I don't know what you are paying for this boat, (did I miss that bit?) but if you're going to rip it all out to the hull, would it not make sense to just buy a sailaway? Then you have a brand new hull & engine,,to whatever level you want, insulated or not, lined or not.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Ally

[BlueStringPudding]

Hi I'm just about to buy my first narrow boat after living on a fibre glass cruiser for 3 years. I have been lurking and reading posts for a while- thank you for all the great ideas.

 

Im going to buy a 1990 53' ex black prince. Semi trad, beta engine. It has been well looked after until recently, the owner became unwell and hasn't been able to maintain the boat as he once did. Survey is done- and not bad. The shell and engine are good, however the polystyrene insulation clearly became detached some time ago so we need to go right back to a bare hull to reinsulate. Also needs new windows, doors and a repaint.

 

There is no 240, a gas boiler that is on its last legs and the water pump and calorifier are knackered

 

I'm seeing this as a good opportunity to start from scratch.

So I'm wondering what experienced narrow boaters would suggest in terms of ...

Insulation- celotex seems a good idea?

Heating- solid fuel stove, mikuni mx40 for hot water and 3 rads, possibly with twin coil calorifier so we can use 240 if needed, maybe linked to engine to so we can heat water off that when the engine is running?

Windows, is it worth going for double glazing. We are thinking about wooden frames- would this look daft?

Traditional Blacking v 2 pack- just can't decide

 

And, well everything else- what would you do if starting again? What would you avoid?

 

We have a marina mooring but hope to spend long periods cruising.

 

Thanks!

 

[/size]

 

As a fellow Black Prince owner, apart from a few modifications I definitely wanted in order to live aboard, I agree with Mrs Tawny Owl on living aboard for a few months and gradually deciding what needs to change. I installed a solid fuel stove almost straight away, and turned all but one of the bedrooms into living space, and I ripped out one of the two loo tanks (didn't need two). Everything else has evolved over time with most rooms having a change of layout in the last few years and in the end, two cabins being knocked through to one. However that wasn't what was envisaged straight away. Had I had the money, I too would have replaced with windows straight away. I did that eventually and it was probably the best thing I did! Not double glazed as the price was prohibitive for me, but to stop them leaking in the rain made a huge difference to the general comfort of the boat. Black Princes are great boats, and easier than many to change the layout. None of my polystyrene is stuck to the walls either, and there's no sign that it ever was. I don't think its designed that way. The insulation has been cut to fit into each section of the wall and it sits there quite happily. Can't say it's ever given me any trouble and in the few areas that I've done some work on the walls, there's been no sign of rust behind the insulation either.

 

Check out The Black Prince Owners website to see how some other Black Prince owners have changed theirs.

Edited February 12, 2013 by BlueStringPudding

[GoodGurl]

also a ex-black prince owner, try this link BP owners pud yours dont work

[BlueStringPudding]

Hmm... Works for me! Must be an iPad thing.

[GoodGurl]

Hmm... Works for me! Must be an iPad thing.

page works but cant click anything.

[Greedyheron]

Having slept on it I definitely agree. Rather than the planned demolition job, a careful look at what's there and works is now plan a. I'm now much more hopeful that all will be well behind the insulation and tat we may just be able to fill the gaps. If we plan carefully so that we use what's there until we get an idea of exactly what we want but don't have to remove anything new to get at anything that we may want to replace in a year or two that seems sensible- making sure we can get at pipes, wires etc.

We looked at sailaways but This boat is 15k leaving us a sizeable budget to change things, whereas for the same money we could have an empty sailaway we can't afford to fit out. In an ideal world we would be going for sailaways but is just not in reach.

Thanks everyone you have really helped me think this through.

[RLWP]

If she is an ex-hire boat, you will be able to get to everything! That's one of the best features of our ex-Alvechurch boat.

 

No hire company can afford to have a boat off-hire for repair, so all services are easy to get to and replace

 

Richard