WB & France?

[magpie patrick]

Lock keepers? What are they?

 

Tim

 

Alright, BW personnel such as the tunnel keepers. What's your grouch, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet on this one

[bargemast]

A Wide beam narrowboat wouldn't be my choice to cruise in France, Belgium Holland etc, but it could be done, as several boats of that type are doing it.

 

With a bit of studying about different locations, and a different and more suitable kind of bollards, they would be much more practical, and safer to use overthere.

 

For boats that are going to be used regulary on the bigger waterways, it may be good to make an addition of some bulwarks to the bows, to prevent the sometimes fairly high waves created by big and fast barges come over the bows, and fill the cockpit.

 

Peter.

[Timleech]

Alright, BW personnel such as the tunnel keepers. What's your grouch, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet on this one

 

Sorry if it seems that way, not meant. Martin's posts last night were a bit confrontational, he or mods have edited them a bit.

 

I've just been trying to offer my opinion, based on a certain amount of experience, that's all.

 

Tim

[Guest]

Sorry if it seems that way, not meant. Martin's posts last night were a bit confrontational, he or mods have edited them a bit.

 

I've just been trying to offer my opinion, based on a certain amount of experience, that's all.

 

Tim

 

Sorry if it seemed that way It just frustrates the hell out of me sometimes when people (not necessarily you BTW) come on here and dismiss somebodies ambitions/ideas/dreams without actually considering that actually with a bit of common sense and adaptation they could be achieved.

 

I also find it patronising when people adopt a 'you can't possibly know what you are talking about when you haven't actually dome it yourself' type attitude (again not aimed at you).

[Tam & Di]

Bollards often get sighted.

 

These are mine.

 

 

Not the normal ones found on WB or NB.

 

 

 

I’ve been reluctant to come in on this, as others (who don’t seem to have boated widely there themselves) know so much better and tell you so in aggressive terms every time cruising in France gets a mention.

 

However ....

 

I’m restricting myself to barge type craft, i.e. straight sided and relatively heavy. A cruiser will have rather different requirements to achieve the same result of a boat that is easy and safe in continental locks. One fundamental thing is that you seldom get to work the lock yourself, and have no control over how fast they fill or empty. The turbulence can often be quite extreme, even in the small Freycinet locks.

 

The bollards you show are unfortunately in need of some modification for safe boating. The sort of bollards used on commercial barges (and decent replicas) are these:

 

 

 

 

The best (and safest) way of using lines in locks is that you put the eye of a fore end line on the lockside bollard, and take turns around those on your craft. You then go into head gear and hold yourself steady against the turbulence.

 

These paired bollards are used as here. The line is fed from the lockside and around the boats bollards furthest away. Turns are taken on the other of the pair. People most get into trouble because the angle at which the line comes to the boat changes as the lock fills, or more particularly as it empties. If you use just one bollard it is very easy to get a jammed turn. However this way of using the paired ones meansh the angle changes in the forward bollard, but stays constant on the one with your turns.

 

 

 

Our bollards are about 6" diameter. Three turns on that means about 4'6" of line in contact with the bollards, and it the friction from that which takes the strain. It doesn't involve any effort on the part of the crew, and there is no knot to jam (just a half hitch when going uphill as in the photo, and which can be kicked off in an instant).

 

With a decent fore deck you have ample space to stand with your hands well clear of the turns

 

 

 

 

It is true that wideboats and even narrowboats can be used to cruise continental canals. You can have them roaded down to Migennes, or even to the Midi, or to the isolated Breton canals, and the boating will not be any more difficult than in the UK. But if you wish to cruise further than this, you quickly get to waterways where the boating is more serious

 

 

Here we are in a lock with several commercial ships, all driving gently against their fore end lines. If we did not get in and get our own line on fairly quickly we would be in all sorts of trouble. The lock keeper is in a cabin up in the air, pressing his buttons, and it is up to you to sort yourself out.

 

The major difficulty with a widebeam or narrowboat is getting quickly from one end to the other and having sufficient uncluttered working space. The problem with narrowboat/widebeam fittings is not generally their strength - it is their design. A modification I have suggested in the past is the addition of something that serves the same purpose of keeping the line where you take your turns separate from where it alters in the angle to the bank. Here it is on a barge, but it is simple to come up with something for a narrowboat too, so the effort is not directly to a tee stud centrally at the stem.

 

 

 

 

As a p.s. to that, the barge here is moored, so not using those extra "fairleads".

 

As a further p.s., it's true that there are several narrow and wide boats here, and the owners (mostly) are having a really great time. It's certainly not impossible, but equally (and with apologies to Kevin) it is not the sort of craft I'd design with continental waterways in mind. 18 years ago when we first came I may well have done it myself; with the benefit of that 18 years I'm all too glad we didn't even think of it.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Tam & Di

[Biggles]

Thanks Tam. Very interesting.

 

My WB has a chined hull. Would this influence things either way?

[Kiwipeter]

Just to make Dog House really really happy (and convince him he is right) I have just taken this photo in Carcassonne Bassin of the first boat movement since 1 Nov.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2012 by Kiwipeter

[Guest]

I’ve been reluctant to come in on this, as others (who don’t seem to have boated widely there themselves) know so much better and tell you so in aggressive terms every time cruising in France gets a mention.

 

However ....

 

Well as that is clearly aimed at me it warrants a response.

 

As I said -

 

I also find it patronising when people adopt a 'you can't possibly know what you are talking about when you haven't actually dome it yourself' type attitude.

 

I honestly don't understand why people are so 'precious' about this subject, yes it's clearly one that practical knowledge is beneficial but this does not diminish the contributions that others might bring in the interests of helping others form an opinion.

 

For the record I have never said I know better than others who have actually done this - I have however queried (strongly not aggressively) those that promote the notion that it is not possible to boat in France on a WB/NB without some considerable difficulty.

 

You have effectively agreed when you said -

 

It is true that wideboats and even narrowboats can be used to cruise continental canals. You can have them roaded down to Migennes, or even to the Midi, or to the isolated Breton canals, and the boating will not be any more difficult than in the UK. But if you wish to cruise further than this, you quickly get to waterways where the boating is more serious

 

You do not to have boated there yourself to know that this is indeed possible with varying degrees of difficulty up to including bits I wouldn't attempt in a WB or NB.- the evidence is there and a bit of research confirms this. I have never claimed you can boat with impunity through the whole French system on a boat not suited to the trickier bits - I have said it can be done on PARTS of the system - it brings restrictions and the OP needs to weigh these up before making a decision.

 

Just to make Dog House really really happy (and convince him he is right) I have just taken this photo in Carcassonne Bassin of the first boat movement since 1 Nov.

 

I don't need convincing.

[Tam & Di]

I honestly don't understand why people are so 'precious' about this subject, yes it's clearly one that practical knowledge is beneficial but this does not diminish the contributions that others might bring in the interests of helping others form an opinion.

 

For the record I have never said I know better than others who have actually done this - I have however queried (strongly not aggressively) those that promote the notion that it is not possible to boat in France on a WB/NB without some considerable difficulty.

 

When I see a post saying "I'm having a widebeam/narrowboat built to take to France", then yes, my reaction is "why would you do that?" as they are not the most suitable type of craft. If they said "to take to the Midi" or "to Brittany" that is a different kettle of fish, but it is not "France". It is different too if the owner is a person who's had his boat for some time and is experienced with it, or a newbie with next to zero experience. However what I do try to do insofaras possible is to quantify my comment - to give reasons for it and to suggest possibilities that could make their choice more successful. People writing blogs or whatever about their idyllic life seldom write about the really frightening bits, but they have them, believe me (on barges too, of course). "Yes you can" "No you can't" is not particularly helpful one way or the other.

[Guest]

When I see a post saying "I'm having a widebeam/narrowboat built to take to France", then yes, my reaction is "why would you do that?" as they are not the most suitable type of craft. If they said "to take to the Midi" or "to Brittany" that is a different kettle of fish, but it is not "France".

 

I'm afraid you are nit picking.

 

When I see it I think yes you can take it to France bur be aware there will be restrictions involved in how far you can reasonably safely travel.

 

As far as I am aware Brittany and the Midi are still in France

 

It's the same as somebody who has a WB in France and asks 'can I bring it to England'. Well yes of course you can but be aware there are restrictions such as not being able to cruise North South and vice versa or there are narrow bits you won't be able to cruise.

Edited December 29, 2012 by The Dog House

[Tam & Di]

Thanks Tam. Very interesting.

 

My WB has a chined hull. Would this influence things either way?

 

It won't make much difference in locks, of course, other than the handful such as on the Yonne or the Marne with sloped walls - though even in those there are now mostly pontoons to tie to rather than sliding up or down with the chines rubbing (or catching) on the slope.

 

All in all I think you are better with your rounded chines. My reservations re NBs and WBs are mostly concerned with locks, though engine power can be a factor too. Also if you are planning on cruising extensively you need a decent anchor and winch, VHF etc, but you probably know all that now. When do you plan your exodus from the UK?

[Tam & Di]

I'm afraid you are nit picking.

 

When I see it I think yes you can take it to France bur be aware there will be restrictions involved in how far you can reasonably safely travel.

 

As far as I am aware Brittany and the Midi are still in France

 

It's the same as somebody who has a WB in France and asks 'can I bring it to England'. Well yes of course you can but be aware there are restrictions such as not being able to cruise North South and vice versa or there are narrow bits you won't be able to cruise.

 

Sorry, but you miss the point entirely. The Canal du Midi is in France, yes, as are the Breton canals, but if someone says they are going boating in France I take it to mean they are moving about. The size of locks or waterway is not a limiting factor for any NB or WB as it would be in the UK. The degree of skill and type of craft required is, however, and to get from one safe haven to another does require going onto waterways where an ill-equipped craft can be a liability.

[Guest]

Sorry, but you miss the point entirely. The Canal du Midi is in France, yes, as are the Breton canals, but if someone says they are going boating in France I take it to mean they are moving about. The size of locks or waterway is not a limiting factor for any NB or WB as it would be in the UK. The degree of skill and type of craft required is, however, and to get from one safe haven to another does require going onto waterways where an ill-equipped craft can be a liability.

 

No I'm, afraid it's you that haa missed the point - I am not saying these are the (same) limiting factors in France but that there are limiting factors to moving through the entire French system just as there are (all be it different ones) to doing the same in the UK.

[Kiwipeter]

Tam

 

I wouldn't bother. Dog House has an opinion, based as I understand it on very limited (if any) French cruising experience. I would hope that anyone planning on cruising in France (or building/buying a boat for France) would weight that appropriately against those (like yourself) with wide experience). The danger is the good advice is drowned out by the static but it was ever thus

 

Peter

[Guest]

Tam

 

I wouldn't bother. Dog House has an opinion, based as I understand it on very limited (if any) French cruising experience. I would hope that anyone planning on cruising in France (or building/buying a boat for France) would weight that appropriately against those (like yourself) with wide experience). The danger is the good advice is drowned out by the static but it was ever thus

 

Peter

 

Well if we go back to the OP -

 

I have seen it mentioned several times in threads over time that a WBNB is not a good or suitable craft for the French waterways.

 

I and I know others are interestd as to why this is given that thre is no 1 craft that is perfect for all situations.

 

Please discuss.

 

I see no mention of practical experience required but rather an invitation to discuss - which we are doing.

 

If you actually read both sets of our posts we are actually saying much the same.

[bargemast]

It won't make much difference in locks, of course, other than the handful such as on the Yonne or the Marne with sloped walls - though even in those there are now mostly pontoons to tie to rather than sliding up or down with the chines rubbing (or catching) on the slope.

 

All in all I think you are better with your rounded chines. My reservations re NBs and WBs are mostly concerned with locks, though engine power can be a factor too. Also if you are planning on cruising extensively you need a decent anchor and winch, VHF etc, but you probably know all that now. When do you plan your exodus from the UK?

 

 

Only the first 3 locks on the Marne (so below Epernay) have sloping sides, but are equipped on 1 side with the best pontoons you can imagine since many years already.

 

When you're going upstream on the Yonne from Monterau, de first 3 locks have both sides sloping, and they've never had pontoons in them, after these all the way to Migennes are another 14 locks, of wich 8 are sloping sided, of which most of them have 1 or 2 fairly small floating pontoons, that are occasionally removed for repairs after being hit by commercials, of the last 9 locks from Migennes to Auxerre, only 2 locks have 1 sloping, and 1 straight side, and they have pontoons against the sloping side.

 

They can be a bit wild if the lockkeepers don't like pleasure boats too much, but they're not half as bad as you often hear.

 

Peter.

[Chris Pink]

Here it is on a barge, but it is simple to come up with something for a narrowboat too, so the effort is not directly to a tee stud centrally at the stem.

 

 

 

 

As a p.s. to that, the barge here is moored, so not using those extra "fairleads".

 

Hi Tam

 

Thanks for ignoring the static and posting that very useful information.

 

One question;

 

With the picture above do you mean the turn is above the t-piece and the changing angle below? Or something else?

[matty40s]

Hi Tam

 

Thanks for ignoring the static and posting that very useful information.

 

One question;

 

With the picture above do you mean the turn is above the t-piece and the changing angle below? Or something else?

I take it as meaning the two welded runners to the left and right Chris (the < and > things) I imagine the rope usually runs through these first whilst the boat isn't moored.

[Chris Pink]

Ok, makes sense. Must have taken some bending, that thick and short.

[Guest]

Hi Tam

 

Thanks for ignoring the static and posting that very useful information.

 

One question;

 

With the picture above do you mean the turn is above the t-piece and the changing angle below? Or something else?

 

The static being my posts 'hey ho'

 

Chris are you posting on your phone again??

 

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the obvious problem of placing appropriate bollards on the gunwales of a WB/NB -

[DeanS]

Well....as someone who WILL at some point, take our widebeam to France in the next 10yrs, this has been a great balanced thread, highlighting the dangers, but also highlighting the posibilities. Thanks for sharing everyone Before going, we would make changes to our boat to store additional water, diesel, and have extra mooring bollards welded on. I would find a dutch barge, or any boat bigger than a WBNB too big to handle, and maintain.

[Lady Muck]

Ok. Anymore pointless keyboard rallies and arguing the toss for the sake of it will be deleted and the member warned.

There is some useful information on this thread. Shame it can hardly be heard.

[DeanS]

ok, a serious question. In the UK, you can cruise most canals and get a decent internet signal...using a Three dongle. France is a much bigger country. Would internet connectivity on the canals be good, decent, or terrible if we arranged a similar dongle?. Are there regulations about how long you can stay in one village etc? In a campervan we spent 6months connecting on hotspots near hotels using Orange scratchcards Can you moor anywhere....in all villages....how much is the marina in the centre of Paris?

[Lady Muck]

Motorhome Facts website is a great source of info for using dongles abroad. I've unlocked my Vodafone mifi following their instructions so I can use payg sims when I'm travelling.

[bargemast]

ok, a serious question. In the UK, you can cruise most canals and get a decent internet signal...using a Three dongle. France is a much bigger country. Would internet connectivity on the canals be good, decent, or terrible if we arranged a similar dongle?. Are there regulations about how long you can stay in one village etc? In a campervan we spent 6months connecting on hotspots near hotels using Orange scratchcards Can you moor anywhere....in all villages....how much is the marina in the centre of Paris?

 

 

Hello Dean, there are several mobilephone providers in France that can all supply you with their dongles and claim that they are the best, if I were you I wouldn't worry about it until you go to France. By then there may be better deals, and/or even more McDo's where they have unlimited free wifi.

 

In case you're interested in knowing more about the marina in the centre of Paris, which is named Port de l'Arsenal, or Port de la Bastille, they operate a second Port on the same canal a bit further in another basin named Port de la Villette.

 

This is the link to their site in English My link

 

You have to be fairly wealthy if you want to stay there for a while, but it's a convenient location, and very well protected.

 

Peter.

Edited December 29, 2012 by bargemast