Lister CS 18/2

[St Tudno]

Hi all,

 

This is my first visit & post

 

Wanted

1,Exhaust Heat Exchanger

2, Any information any one may have on St.Tudno

3, Any spare parts for engine & advice/information welcome

 

I am in the process of renovating a circa 1860 Bantock, she was previously marinised i believe in the 1950's

I have been told the engine i have to put in her was originally built in November 1932 from the numbers on the brass plate on the engine doors, the Exhaust Heat Exchanger is unusual as the inlet & outlet are both under the Exchanger & circulate straight back into the block, unfortunately the Exchanger is perished beyond repair.

 

The other unusual thing with this engine is that the injectors do not fit through a tube as JP's, there is are 2 rubber seals to stop the water coming back up or leaking down into the block the injectors still have the bronze sealing washers also.

 

Looking forward to your comments, advice & directions for spares etc

 

Kind Regards

Kevin

[by'eck]

Hi Kevin

 

What is the serial number of your engine?

 

I always thought the Lister 18/2 was in fact a JP2 as they are now known. Although with significant design differences to the CS series, confusingly they did have the CS (cold start) prefix to the engine serial number as well.

 

The CS series were lower revving industrial engines with external valve pushrods, usually with twin flywheels and never had a marine variant unlike the JP's. The CS 10/2 @ 600 rpm engine was uprated to 650 rpm and became the 12/2 during the '50's. It was finally uprated to 800 rpm and renamed the 16/2 in 1962.

 

Check out M.P.S. - they are manufacturing some new parts for the JP series, and can probably help with others.

 

Some photo's of your engine may help. Here is a photo of a CS2 fitted in Hudson shell, although not a common choice. It retains its twin flywheels.

 

 

If it is a genuine CS engine it may be that it was a one off marinisation, so the various parts you seek would have been custom made or adapted.

Edited December 13, 2012 by by'eck

[stagedamager]

St. Tudno,

Whilst i can't help with your queries, i am following the restoration on Facebook, and she's looking great!!

Welcome to the forum.

:cheers:

 

Dan

[by'eck]

St. Tudno,

Whilst i can't help with your queries, i am following the restoration on Facebook, and she's looking great!!

Welcome to the forum.

:cheers:

 

Dan

 

Do you have the link?

[St Tudno]

Hi Richard,

thanks for your reply & info, i also thought it was a JP2 as it is virtually the same at first glance, until we started taking her apart, Geoff knows his JP's inside out & has been working on them for years & has never come across one like this, also Barry & Paul where she is being renorvated have never seen one like it , in all their years. I tend to agree it may be a one off, or a prototype, it was under cloth for over 25 years, started every few years apparently until the Ode chap passed away.

 

Details on Brass plate

 

No. CS13815 Spec 18/2/58

HP 18 RPM 1000

 

 

I will ask my son to add some photo's

 

anymore info much appreciated

Regards

 

Kevin

 

St. Tudno,

Whilst i can't help with your queries, i am following the restoration on Facebook, and she's looking great!!

Welcome to the forum.

:cheers:

 

Dan

 

Thanks Dan,

 

She is coming on beautifully.

 

Regards

Kevin

[by'eck]

Hi Richard,

thanks for your reply & info, i also thought it was a JP2 as it is virtually the same at first glance, until we started taking her apart, Geoff knows his JP's inside out & has been working on them for years & has never come across one like this, also Barry & Paul where she is being renorvated have never seen one like it , in all their years. I tend to agree it may be a one off, or a prototype, it was under cloth for over 25 years, started every few years apparently until the Ode chap passed away.

 

Details on Brass plate

 

No. CS13815 Spec 18/2/58

HP 18 RPM 1000

 

 

I will ask my son to add some photo's

 

anymore info much appreciated

Regards

 

Kevin

 

Kevin, checked out that engine number. Although no specific serial numbers for 1934 production, first built in 1933 was CS7318 and first in 1935 CS13904, so build date could easily have been November 1934 (not 1932). For the reasons mentioned above it doesn't tie it down to JP or CS though, but as you say it looks externally like a JP2.

 

If it has a water cooled silencer (sits above crankcase breather), flywheel on front end (opposite end to gearbox) and maybe overhead hand start shaft, that would make it a marine version.

 

Look forward to seeing some pics.

[stagedamager]

The bow cabin looks great, I'll be doing The same to BCN1645.... once the hull is sound!!!

[St Tudno]

Kevin, checked out that engine number. Although no specific serial numbers for 1934 production, first built in 1933 was CS7318 and first in 1935 CS13904, so build date could easily have been November 1934 (not 1932). For the reasons mentioned above it doesn't tie it down to JP or CS though, but as you say it looks externally like a JP2.

 

If it has a water cooled silencer (sits above crankcase breather), flywheel on front end (opposite end to gearbox) and maybe overhead hand start shaft, that would make it a marine version.

 

Look forward to seeing some pics.

 

 

I would say it definately was built as a marine version as it has as you said a water cooled silencer (sits above crankcase breather), flywheel on front end (opposite end to gearbox) and maybe overhead hand start shaft.

[cheshire~rose]

Do you have the link?

 

I am also following this with interest on Facebook. Those guys are doing a great job.

 

If anyone else is on FB they can go to PJ Barber Boatbuilder Ltd's page to see the progress. If you click to "like" the page then updated photo's will appear in your feed as they are published

 

FB Linky

[St Tudno]

The bow cabin looks great, I'll be doing The same to BCN1645.... once the hull is sound!!!

 

PLease keep me updated on progress + pictures

 

Regards

Kevin

 

Kevin, checked out that engine number. Although no specific serial numbers for 1934 production, first built in 1933 was CS7318 and first in 1935 CS13904, so build date could easily have been November 1934 (not 1932). For the reasons mentioned above it doesn't tie it down to JP or CS though, but as you say it looks externally like a JP2.

 

If it has a water cooled silencer (sits above crankcase breather), flywheel on front end (opposite end to gearbox) and maybe overhead hand start shaft, that would make it a marine version.

 

Look forward to seeing some pics.

 

Hi Richard

I am struggling to put pics on here can you give me your email address to send them to.

 

Regards

Kevin

[bargemast]

I would love to see these photos too, so if Richard could post them on here I would be happy, as I still have very fond memories of a Lister CS-2 that I had on one of my barges as an auxillary, to drive a compressor, dynamo and a big ballastpump.

It didn't need a soundproof casing as you could hardly hear it running at only a couple of hundred revs, and never needed more then a couple of turns on the handle to start.

 

Peter.

[by'eck]

PLease keep me updated on progress + pictures

 

Regards

Kevin

 

 

 

Hi Richard

I am struggling to put pics on here can you give me your email address to send them to.

 

Regards

Kevin

 

Kevin, will PM you with my email address a.s.a.p. At the moment you don't quite have enough posts (five or more I think) to qualify to receive or send personal mails (PM's) through this forum.

 

In the meantime have pulled this image from facebook.

 

 

Looks to be normal JP2M with water-cooled exhaust manifold and silencer.

 

ETA: There do seem to be circular casting stubs on the curved parts of exhaust manifold where they enter the square section water cooled part. My own built two years later doesn't have these.

 

Martyn at M.P.S. will shortly be offering the marine exhaust manifold part # 11-13-202 newly manufactured - click on link.

Edited December 15, 2012 by by'eck

[steamraiser2]

Its an early series JP2M. They have some detail differences to the later versions but are pretty much the same. The water cooled silencer drains back into the block from beneath the silencer rather than the later external copper pipe. The injector pump has no lip seals and are prone to leak. A good engine nonetheless. The exhaust manifold shown in the picture is a later pattern and not the original. It is this pattern manifold and matching silencer that we manufacture here at MPS. They are directly interchangeable.The silencer and manifolds are the Achilles heel of this engine as they suffer badly from corrosion. Very difficult castings to replicate and subsequently expensive. A brand new silencer ready to fit is in excess of £1k largely because the foundry charges are so high.

Edited December 15, 2012 by steamraiser2

[martyn 1]

checking through the build data sheets and as mentioned by by'eck, from the engine number its is a late 1934 engine. and from the photos I can 100% say it is a early pattern JP2 not a CS. and Steamraiser2 (My old man ;0) ) has beat me too it on the early JP's differences to the later ones

 

Kevin, will PM you with my email address a.s.a.p. At the moment you don't quite have enough posts (five or more I think) to qualify to receive or send personal mails (PM's) through this forum.

 

In the meantime have pulled this image from facebook.

 

 

Looks to be normal JP2M with water-cooled exhaust manifold and silencer.

 

ETA: There do seem to be circular casting stubs on the curved parts of exhaust manifold where they enter the square section water cooled part. My own built two years later doesn't have these.

 

Martyn at M.P.S. will shortly be offering the marine exhaust manifold part # 11-13-202 newly manufactured - click on link.

[St Tudno]

Its an early series JP2M. They have some detail differences to the later versions but are pretty much the same. The water cooled silencer drains back into the block from beneath the silencer rather than the later external copper pipe. The injector pump has no lip seals and are prone to leak. A good engine nonetheless. The exhaust manifold shown in the picture is a later pattern and not the original. It is this pattern manifold and matching silencer that we manufacture here at MPS. They are directly interchangeable.The silencer and manifolds are the Achilles heel of this engine as they suffer badly from corrosion. Very difficult castings to replicate and subsequently expensive. A brand new silencer ready to fit is in excess of £1k largely because the foundry charges are so high.

Hi Geoff,

I believe i spoke to you or Martyn on Saturday morning but was cut off & could not get back to you regards the Exhaust heat exchanger.

Thankyou for your comments & advice

will give you guy's a call when i have saved somemore pennies up

 

Regards

Kevin

[by'eck]

As promised pictures of Kevin's engine

 

 

 

Looks much like my early JP2M except for piston type water/bilge pump and crankcase mounted decompressors. They are often linked to a foot operated bar to aid hand starting by a single person.

 

Hopefully you have the reduction gear missing from the Blackstone gearbox.

[St Tudno]

As promised pictures of Kevin's engine

 

 

 

Looks much like my early JP2M except for piston type water/bilge pump and crankcase mounted decompressors. They are often linked to a foot operated bar to aid hand starting by a single person.

 

Hopefully you have the reduction gear missing from the Blackstone gearbox.

 

Thanks for putting up pictures

 

As with the Heat Exchanger the 2-1 reduction was beyond repair, but i have got a 3-1 reduction off a very nice chap, which should go well with the 28" prop

 

Regards

Kevin

[RLWP]

Thanks for putting up pictures

 

As with the Heat Exchanger the 2-1 reduction was beyond repair, but i have got a 3-1 reduction off a very nice chap, which should go well with the 28" prop

 

Regards

Kevin

 

3:1 seems to be going the wrong way. I don't know much about these engines, however I would have expected a reduction in the range 2:1 to 1:1

 

Richard

[Timleech]

3:1 seems to be going the wrong way. I don't know much about these engines, however I would have expected a reduction in the range 2:1 to 1:1

 

Richard

 

2:1 is a pretty good match for a JP2 in a Narrow Boat with decent draught, needs about a 24" propeller (depends on max rpm).

With 1:1 you might as well have a Kubota

 

Tim

[RLWP]

2:1 is a pretty good match for a JP2 in a Narrow Boat with decent draught, needs about a 24" propeller (depends on max rpm).

With 1:1 you might as well have a Kubota

 

Tim

 

And 3:1?

 

Richard

[Timleech]

And 3:1?

 

Richard

 

With the OP's engine, rated at 1000 rpm max, it'll take a fair sized prop to match properly. Propcalc says 33", but I don't find it very believable on this sort of thing.

Later JPs went up to 1200 rpm, which would reduce the diameter requirement a bit.

 

Tim

[steamraiser2]

3:1 is not necessary for a narrowboat unless you intend to throw a prop as big as the London Eye ! A JP2 will happily drive most narrowboats through a 1:1 with the correct propellor.In fact this arrangement tends to provide a decent loading on the engine. 2:1 is a common enough set up although not strictly needed, in reality there is a "custom and practice" towards this. If you actually do the maths correctly with all the specific boat data it seldom comes out at 2:1. JP's need to have a decent load on them to prevent coking and bore glazing so decide on gearing and prop size specific to your boat not someone elses!

[steamraiser2]

Hi Geoff,

I believe i spoke to you or Martyn on Saturday morning but was cut off & could not get back to you regards the Exhaust heat exchanger.

Thankyou for your comments & advice

will give you guy's a call when i have saved somemore pennies up

 

Regards

Kevin

 

Hi Kevin, Yes it was me you spoke to on Saturday. It went quiet when I told you what new wet silencers cost ! I thought you had fainted! If it helps Martyn and I go out into the foundry car park for a good cry every time we have to pay for a batch! Geoff

[Timleech]

3:1 is not necessary for a narrowboat unless you intend to throw a prop as big as the London Eye ! A JP2 will happily drive most narrowboats through a 1:1 with the correct propellor.In fact this arrangement tends to provide a decent loading on the engine. 2:1 is a common enough set up although not strictly needed, in reality there is a "custom and practice" towards this. If you actually do the maths correctly with all the specific boat data it seldom comes out at 2:1. JP's need to have a decent load on them to prevent coking and bore glazing so decide on gearing and prop size specific to your boat not someone elses!

 

A JP2 with direct drive box will take something around a 17" prop, which is similar to what a lot of more modern narrowboat engines use with a 2:1 box. Absolutely fine for a 'modern', shallow draughted boat but TBH I feel that engines like the JP are a bit pointless in that sort of boat, just doesn't 'feel' right. Put them in a boat with reasonable draught, more than 2 feet, with a 2:1 reduction and a prop to match, and you have a good and hopefully efficient setup. Some people might complain of a 'lack of power' if you're putting 18 hp or so through a 17" prop, starting and stopping may be a little sluggish.

 

Just my opinion

 

Tim

[steamraiser2]

A JP2 with direct drive box will take something around a 17" prop, which is similar to what a lot of more modern narrowboat engines use with a 2:1 box. Absolutely fine for a 'modern', shallow draughted boat but TBH I feel that engines like the JP are a bit pointless in that sort of boat, just doesn't 'feel' right. Put them in a boat with reasonable draught, more than 2 feet, with a 2:1 reduction and a prop to match, and you have a good and hopefully efficient setup. Some people might complain of a 'lack of power' if you're putting 18 hp or so through a 17" prop, starting and stopping may be a little sluggish.

 

Just my opinion

 

Tim

 

If starting and stopping is sluggish its generally the wrong prop. Too much "rule of thumb" and not enough engineering design. We know of one boat builder who fits the same diameter and pitch prop to all his boats regardless of length, hp and rpm. I suppose it depends on if you are happy with near enough or want it spot on.