Cold start a Lister SR2

[Timleech]

I'm still missing something here.....

 

I can see the stuff about "Cold Starting Oil Injector Device" - "An oil cup mounted on the inlet valve port is used to assist starting in frosty conditions".

 

But I'm still not seeing what Allan is describing.

 

To me a lot of what is there is anyway about a fixed speed engine, not a marine one, and seems to be over-ridden by the bit that says "On a propulsion engine set the speed lever as 'fast'".

 

But perhaps I'm misinterpreting?

 

The speed lever is a different thing, the 'throttle' control. A propulsion engine will have both.

I think the oil cups, which are another cold starting aid, were an optional extra on marine SRs, but standard on some other small Listers.

 

Your HA has a completely different 'cold start' excess fuel device, which you've probably found by now

 

 

Tim

[luctor et emergo]

Anyway, when the canal is frozen over in the morning, I give the speedwheel a turn or two, and turn the key. Until the bugger coughs into life. No faving about with the stop lever.

 

Not arguing the toss, just my way of starting the SR3. Yor mileage may vary...

[alan_fincher]

Your HA has a completely different 'cold start' excess fuel device, which you've probably found by now

I have, and it was discussed on here at some point.

 

I wasn't able to get anywhere with it as an aid to hand starting - a black art largely unmastered by me, (and which I'm now nervous of, since learning Sickle's HA has broken more than one persons wrists already. )

 

On the starter motor it generally starts so well, I have not had to use it there at all yet.

[Wiff]

MY head hurts now!

[MoominPapa]

Not that start/stop control, as far as I'm aware, common to all the small air cooled Listers over many years.

 

Tim

... and at least some water-cooled ones. The FR has this function, but it's automatic. When the stop control is moved from "stop" back to "run" it automatically engages the excess fuel position, ready for the next start. On starting the engine accelerates on excess fuel, and once it reaches about 1000rpm you can hear the mechanism trip and the revs drop back to idle. No need to move the throttle from idle to start.

 

 

MP.

[Keeping Up]

I'm still missing something here.....

 

I can see the stuff about "Cold Starting Oil Injector Device" - "An oil cup mounted on the inlet valve port is used to assist starting in frosty conditions".

 

But I'm still not seeing what Allan is describing.

 

To me a lot of what is there is anyway about a fixed speed engine, not a marine one, and seems to be over-ridden by the bit that says "On a propulsion engine set the speed lever as 'fast'".

 

But perhaps I'm misinterpreting?

 

No I'm not talking about the oil injector device. Nor am I talking about the (separate) speed control which is not described in the manual.

 

I am specifically talking about the starting control, as described on page 17 of the manual and shown in the pictures, which is activated by turning the STOP control lever in the opposite direction to provide an extra quantity of fuel. As Tim Leech says, and is borne out by the manual, that lever MUST be returned to its normal running position as soon as the engine starts.

 

It is THAT control which I have been talking about, all through this thread; my old SR3 had it and in the depths of winter it definitely needed it to make it start easily.

[Wiff]

Engine is aircooled, and I do not have that little starting control on my engine as far as I can see. Hmm now thinking it is back to the old blow torch method!will continue with decompressing and pulling out the devise seen on the photo near to the exhaust pipes and the little brassy disc at the bottom of the engine. My old and I think wise mechanic told me to use it in the winter so I think that is whaat I will do. I have a feeling that the engine in my boat is not the original so maybe it is not a marine engine. Dont know if that is possible and really so long as I can get it to go I am not rightly fussed. Been on my boat only since the end of September so I am still just moving in!

[RLWP]

I'm finding this tricky without pictures. Here is page 17 of the manual with the device that Allan is talking about:

 

 

Richard

[Keeping Up]

It should be easy to find if you just follow the stop cable/rod (or whatever else you use to stop the engine)

[Wiff]

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/dscf5036k.jpg/ link to see photos of my engine, really cannot see the control you are showing which seems to be optional on the SR2 engine, I just want the easiest and safest way to start this engine sadly full throttle on a cold day does not cut it quite. I am beginning to see that this engine is a bit specialist but bomb proof too. Being without a hands on advisor is a bit difficult and I just want to avoid flat batteries at this time of year. I also do not have the oil cup for cold starting either if that helps. Been away on business over the weekend and it is now much warmer so it will start with little fuss today I think. Maybe the real solution is lost in the mists of time!

[RLWP]

 

 

Richard

Edited December 3, 2012 by RLWP

[Timleech]

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/dscf5036k.jpg/ link to see photos of my engine, really cannot see the control you are showing which seems to be optional on the SR2 engine, I just want the easiest and safest way to start this engine sadly full throttle on a cold day does not cut it quite. I am beginning to see that this engine is a bit specialist but bomb proof too. Being without a hands on advisor is a bit difficult and I just want to avoid flat batteries at this time of year. I also do not have the oil cup for cold starting either if that helps. Been away on business over the weekend and it is now much warmer so it will start with little fuss today I think. Maybe the real solution is lost in the mists of time!

 

As has been said, look for the STOP control. You do stop it, surely? If it's a cable or a bit of wire, follow it to the very end & you should find the little lever. Just pull it out (away from the engine) a little & you should be able to turn it in the opposite direction to that used for stopping. It won't be visible in your pics, it's on the side at the front.

 

Tim

[RLWP]

 

STOP control

 

Richard

 

Tim, is this the control, bottom left on this SR3?:

 

 

Richard

Edited December 3, 2012 by RLWP

[Timleech]

 

Tim, is this the control, bottom left on this SR3?:

 

 

Richard

 

YES

 

Tim

Edited December 3, 2012 by Timleech

[Wiff]

okay will have a look later today and see what it does, sorry for being a bit daft sounding but I have off forum been told some wildly conflicting information about this engine. Most of it from the previous owner and also from elderly "done it all my life mechanics" I can turn my engine off and seems like I have been given the right info from my mechanic but he called it something different. Any way will have a look later. Thank you all for your help x

[bizzard]

Quite often on the SR variable speed marine engines or especially on marinized industrial engines the stop cable is fixed straight onto the left hand side of that butterfly switch with a wee collar to pull it up to stop the engine and so unless the cable has a lot of slack in it or its disconnected the butterfly switch can't swing round anti-clock to the start position. And so full throttle on the main Morse control is normally used.

Lots of variations and home mechanicing is often done over the years on these engines.

My ST2 has the intake oil cups but i've never had to use them as it starts pretty well instantly with only full throttle, as should the SR. In extreme cold I'll decompress but only to ease the battery and starter load.

Decompressors, oil cups and the direct overfuel start butterfly switch are really only to aid hand starting engines.

Incidentally the starter motors on old engines are worth checking out as they may not be giving full power.

The SR, ST' ect usually have starter motors with a brush compartment covering band and by slackening the single screw can be slid along clear to examine the brush gear. Should be 3 brush starters and quite often just one stuck brush or a rusted and broken little ''Winkle spring'' the springs that hold each brush in contact with the commutator''. If the brushes or just 1 brush is not in proper contact with the commutator either stuck in its holder or a ''Winkle spring'' has broken, it will reduce the starters power considerably giving a false impression that the battery is going flat when it isn't.

Its worth sliding this band clear once in a while during warm weather to dry any dampness out and to check on brush movement and the Winkle springs.

[Wiff]

Okay, Working like an idiot (self employed) until after Christmas when I should be in my quiet time so I dont see much of my engine in daylight hours. Fingers crossed I can take it easy and get to know my Lister in a much more informed way than I currently do. I feel frustrated with myself for not knowing more and having to ask but I really want to know how to do things properly and as was pointed out it is so difficult to to understand directions without photos on these types of forums but it does seem looking at the photos of the lovely red painted engine I am basicly doing the right thing. I will check that starter motor as soon as time allows. As you can probably see from the photo my engine is a bit of an old work horse which though well maintained is probably feeling some of its age by now and the starter motor and batteries may well be feeling that age too as I was told on the survey the boat does need some TLC but I call it home now and cant wait to find out what a winkle pin looks like! Cheers again for all your help it is much apreciated x

 

okay Winkle spring mot pin, Lordy lord .....

[bizzard]

Okay, Working like an idiot (self employed) until after Christmas when I should be in my quiet time so I dont see much of my engine in daylight hours. Fingers crossed I can take it easy and get to know my Lister in a much more informed way than I currently do. I feel frustrated with myself for not knowing more and having to ask but I really want to know how to do things properly and as was pointed out it is so difficult to to understand directions without photos on these types of forums but it does seem looking at the photos of the lovely red painted engine I am basicly doing the right thing. I will check that starter motor as soon as time allows. As you can probably see from the photo my engine is a bit of an old work horse which though well maintained is probably feeling some of its age by now and the starter motor and batteries may well be feeling that age too as I was told on the survey the boat does need some TLC but I call it home now and cant wait to find out what a winkle pin looks like! Cheers again for all your help it is much apreciated x

 

okay Winkle spring mot pin, Lordy lord .....

'' Winkle spring'' small curled springs that look a bit like and the same size as a winkle that is fresh from being plucked from its little house ''shell'' with a pin.

Your starter motor is probably pretty old now. And these wee springs commonly rust and break with dampness and age, and make sure the brushes are free to move in their slots too, Don't tug on the brushes wires to check this though, gently pull the carbon brushes themselves up and down with plyers to check.

[bizzard]

'' Winkle spring'' small curled springs that look a bit like and the same size as a winkle that is fresh from being plucked from its little house ''shell'' with a pin.

Your starter motor is probably pretty old now. And these wee springs commonly rust and break with dampness and age, and make sure the brushes are free to move in their slots too, Don't tug on the brushes wires to check this though, gently pull the carbon brushes themselves up and down with plyers to check.

Having said that your blue engine in your photo has probably been reconditioned at some time. The starter motor too from what i can see of it looks clean as if it might have been reconditioned too. I can just make out the band covering the brush apertures in its body that i was on about too.

[PhilR]

I'm finding this tricky without pictures. Here is page 17 of the manual with the device that Allan is talking about:

 

 

Richard

 

 

As has been said, look for the STOP control. You do stop it, surely? If it's a cable or a bit of wire, follow it to the very end & you should find the little lever. Just pull it out (away from the engine) a little & you should be able to turn it in the opposite direction to that used for stopping. It won't be visible in your pics, it's on the side at the front.

 

Tim

 

Tim

 

I have always assumed that the Lister starting instructions (I have quoted the extract from Richard's post for reference) refer to both the propulsion and auxillary engines. And that the instructions under (f) and (k) or (l) mean that the stop/control lever might only be needed to be used when starting non-propulsion engines. I assume that setting the speed control (**throttle**) to full does the same job on propulsion engines?

 

There is provision for two cables to be fitted to the stop/control lever, but that seems pointless when the deckboards would need to be lifted to pull out and push back the operating lever.

 

Am I missing something?

[Timleech]

Tim

 

I have always assumed that the Lister starting instructions (I have quoted the extract from Richard's post for reference) refer to both the propulsion and auxillary engines. And that the instructions under (f) and (k) or (l) mean that the stop/control lever might only be needed to be used when starting non-propulsion engines. I assume that setting the speed control (**throttle**) to full does the same job on propulsion engines?

 

There is provision for two cables to be fitted to the stop/control lever, but that seems pointless when the deckboards would need to be lifted to pull out and push back the operating lever.

 

Am I missing something?

 

The speed control does not do the same thing.

The little butterfly STOP lever has behind it an arm which restricts the maximum fuel setting of the pump racks (see Richard's link). Opening the speed control will just pull the racks against this stop. By pulling out the STOP lever and turning it anticlockwise, you are moving the inner arm to the left, which allows the racks to move further left and consequently pump more fuel per stroke, to make cold starting easier. Turning the lever clockwise pushes the racks to the right and shuts off the fuel, thereby stopping the engine.

 

Tim

[Chris Pink]

Being without a hands on advisor is a bit difficult and I just want to avoid flat batteries at this time of year.

 

Where are you?

[PhilR]

The speed control does not do the same thing.

The little butterfly STOP lever has behind it an arm which restricts the maximum fuel setting of the pump racks (see Richard's link). Opening the speed control will just pull the racks against this stop. By pulling out the STOP lever and turning it anticlockwise, you are moving the inner arm to the left, which allows the racks to move further left and consequently pump more fuel per stroke, to make cold starting easier. Turning the lever clockwise pushes the racks to the right and shuts off the fuel, thereby stopping the engine.

 

Tim

 

Thanks Tim. That explains it very clearly. The next time I start the SR2 I'll give it a go and see if it cuts down the cranking time.

 

Phil