Trustees and Council give green light for mooring rules

[Paul C]

A guideline is not covered by law, so therefore is just that, a guide.

 

I know what you mean. However, they did consult legal counsel in formulating it, have updated it based on the (few) court cases which directly relate to it, and have never lost a court case yet. That's kinda convincing. What are your equally convincing arguments that 500 yds is okay?

[jenlyn]

I know what you mean. However, they did consult legal counsel in formulating it, have updated it based on the (few) court cases which directly relate to it, and have never lost a court case yet. That's kinda convincing. What are your equally convincing arguments that 500 yds is okay?

Rubbish.

[Paul C]

Rubbish.

 

Ok lets put it another way. Why did you choose 500 yards? Why not 400 yds? 2 miles? 18.6 miles? 100 yds? 150 yds? etc

[jenlyn]

Ok lets put it another way. Why did you choose 500 yards? Why not 400 yds? 2 miles? 18.6 miles? 100 yds? 150 yds? etc

..??

[blodger]

Rubbish.

Much more succinct than utter rubbish

 

Ok lets put it another way. Why did you choose 500 yards? Why not 400 yds? 2 miles? 18.6 miles? 100 yds? 150 yds? etc

Exactly. There is no qualification.

[cotswoldsman]

Ostensibly your argument could be considered OK John but what happens when all the other spaces are gradually taken until none are left. Another boater then turns up and sees that no spaces are left and has no idea that you have been there longer than the allowed time. Do you rush out and immediately offer to vacate your space, does he have to guess which boats have been there longer and have to tap on the roof and what happens if you don't happen to be on board at the time?

Roger

 

What I do when it starts to fill up even if I am still within my permitted time is breast up with the other boat I cruise with. In the case of Ripon the moorings filling up without my knowledge was fairly unlikely as not many boats were chancing the River Ouse due to flood conditions. This was proved right by the fact that only one other boat arrived during the week I was there. I think you do make a good point but normally you can tell if a place is going to be busy. I have been on my present mooring in Wigan for 7 days (14 day mooring) the 48 hour mooring just close has not had a single boat during that 7 days and in my opinion most probably will not have anyone in the next 7 days. In the case of Ripon the only moorings are 48 hour moorings. I did forget to mention a quite important part about Ripon, when I asked the Enforcement Officer why were the moorings only 48 hours she did say it was because of the houses opposite, I was told by a local that there is a particular woman who has done nothing but complain ever since the canal into Ripon was opened (The Basin)

 

I know what you mean. However, they did consult legal counsel in formulating it, have updated it based on the (few) court cases which directly relate to it, and have never lost a court case yet. That's kinda convincing. What are your equally convincing arguments that 500 yds is okay?

 

Consulting Council is completely meaningless. In any Civil Action both parties will consult Council and in most cases Council will say they have a good chance of winning, the fact is one party in most cases will lose.

[Chris Pink]

Just to throw another bone into the pot to pick over and relentlessly trying to go back to the OP.

 

the Waterways Ombudsman ruled, one of her first, that BW were not allowed to change moorings without consultation.

 

So the boaters of the grand union? They indicated that this is what they wanted.

 

Or BW/CRT have broken the law by ignoring this requirement.

 

....have never lost a court case yet.

 

Rubbish.

[Albion]

What I do when it starts to fill up even if I am still within my permitted time is breast up with the other boat I cruise with. In the case of Ripon the moorings filling up without my knowledge was fairly unlikely as not many boats were chancing the River Ouse due to flood conditions. This was proved right by the fact that only one other boat arrived during the week I was there. I think you do make a good point but normally you can tell if a place is going to be busy. I have been on my present mooring in Wigan for 7 days (14 day mooring) the 48 hour mooring just close has not had a single boat during that 7 days and in my opinion most probably will not have anyone in the next 7 days. In the case of Ripon the only moorings are 48 hour moorings. I did forget to mention a quite important part about Ripon, when I asked the Enforcement Officer why were the moorings only 48 hours she did say it was because of the houses opposite, I was told by a local that there is a particular woman who has done nothing but complain ever since the canal into Ripon was opened (The Basin)

Yes, I have no doubt that in your case, as a responsible CC'er moving gently but continually onward, you wouldn't cause a problem anywhere. I doubt that you are truly representative of many others though John. I suspect that plenty of others, in the example that I described, would just stay for as long as they wished thus depriving others of a chance to moor in a location and if that happens to be a honey pot site, like here in central Skipton, then 'tough' as far as they are concerned. The newly arrived boater 'can't prove how long I've been here so I'll stay'. We see it frequently here on the 3 day moorings and particularly on the 24 hour plaza where some stay for days on end.

Roger

Edited November 1, 2012 by Albion

[Chris Pink]

A 24 hour limit is the daftest thing ever (think about it for a moment)

Edited November 1, 2012 by Chris Pink

[cotswoldsman]

Yes, I have no doubt that in your case, as a responsible CC'er moving gently but continually onward, you wouldn't cause a problem anywhere. I doubt that you are truly representative of many others though John. I suspect that plenty of others, in the example that I described, would just stay for as long as they wished thus depriving others of a chance to moor in a location and if that happens to be a honey pot site, like here in central Skipton, then 'tough' as far as they are concerned. The newly arrived boater 'can't prove how long I've been here so I'll stay'. We see it frequently here on the 3 day moorings and particularly on the 24 hour plaza where some stay for days on end.

Roger

 

Ah Ripon I really like that place. What I did this year was moor for 7 days Highgate Swing Bridge and catch the bust into Ripon, best of both worlds being in the countryside. The idea was to moor for 1 night on my through so I could go to that Fish and chip shop by the bridge, but unfortunately could not find a mooring but it did not bother me and I would not know if any were over stayers.

[Wild Is The Wind]

Yes, I have no doubt that in your case, as a responsible CC'er moving gently but continually onward, you wouldn't cause a problem anywhere. I doubt that you are truly representative of many others though John. I suspect that plenty of others, in the example that I described, would just stay for as long as they wished thus depriving others of a chance to moor in a location and if that happens to be a honey pot site, like here in central Skipton, then 'tough' as far as they are concerned. The newly arrived boater 'can't prove how long I've been here so I'll stay'. We see it frequently here on the 3 day moorings and particularly on the 24 hour plaza where some stay for days on end.

Roger

 

I think I read that cc'rs make up a very small percentage of boaters, that C&RT believe only half of cc'rs overstay at times and they are targeting/working with a very small number of boaters (500/600?) to resolve problems in hot spot areas. The changes to mooring rules will affect all boaters (except those who stay permanently in marinas) and you don't have to be a cc'er to overstay. I don't think it is helpful or fair to make sweeping generalisations about cc'rs as a group - even if you do have examples its just not nice to go around thinking and saying everyone is guilty until they get the chance to prove their innocence. Sticking rigidly to shorter mooring times in areas where there is no or little demand just doesn't make sense either. This is just my view, no offence meant.

[Albion]

I think I read that cc'rs make up a very small percentage of boaters, that C&RT believe only half of cc'rs overstay at times and they are targeting/working with a very small number of boaters (500/600?) to resolve problems in hot spot areas. The changes to mooring rules will affect all boaters (except those who stay permanently in marinas) and you don't have to be a cc'er to overstay. I don't think it is helpful or fair to make sweeping generalisations about cc'rs as a group - even if you do have examples its just not nice to go around thinking and saying everyone is guilty until they get the chance to prove their innocence. Sticking rigidly to shorter mooring times in areas where there is no or little demand just doesn't make sense either. This is just my view, no offence meant.

 

I can only report what I see daily as my house is within sight of the affected areas, therefore I don't think it can be classed as a sweeping generalisation as I was illustrating why John's (Cotswoldman) case with his use of an empty visitor mooring could be abused by other overstayers. Indeed, he accepted that the example I gave was a possible problem area.

I have several friends and acquaintances who CC perfectly well within the existing guidelines and may well be affected by the action that C&RT seems to be proposing, brought about by the sometimes selfish action of a minority. It will also be unfortunate for my friends if draconian rules are brought in but, having watched the situation here from my house only yards from the central moorings in Skipton over many years I have come to recognise the local CCers that regularly exceed the limits on those moorings and know that they are abusing the limits. Whether those limits are realistic, as per Chris Pink's reply, is another topic altogether and can be argued, but as long as those limits are there then it is incumbent on all boaters to respect them and show consideration to others that might also wish to moor in a honey pot site like central Skipton.

I have also had about 30 years of UK canal boating experience and experienced the situation first hand on the lower Southern Oxford and the southern GU and know that the problem in those areas has got worse over the years.

I don't take offence at your posting at all. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I just don't happen to agree that there isn't a problem and am not surprised that the few are likely to cause a problem for the many.

Roger

[Paul C]

 

Rubbish.

 

from the briefing document:

 

In the small number of cases that have completed the full course of our enforcement processes and reached the law courts, judges have always upheld our case.

 

It would be an unusual thing to put into a briefing document if it were not true.

 

The changes to mooring rules will affect all boaters (except those who stay permanently in marinas) and you don't have to be a cc'er to overstay.

 

The changes to mooring rules are only proposed in hotspot locations. It will affect only a small proportion of boaters.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Paul C

[jenlyn]

oops

Edited November 1, 2012 by jenlyn

[cotswoldsman]

You are making statements on issues you have not researched, thus making ill informed judgements. Which in my opinion, is of no help to this thread. It's getting very annoying!!

 

 

 

You are making statements on issues you have not researched, thus making ill informed judgements. Which in my opinion, is of no help to this thread. It's getting very annoying!!

 

 

 

You are making statements on issues you have not researched, thus making ill informed judgements. Which in my opinion, is of no help to this thread. It's getting very annoying!!

 

 

 

You are making statements on issues you have not researched, thus making ill informed judgements. Which in my opinion, is of no help to this thread. It's getting very annoying!!

 

 

 

You are making statements on issues you have not researched, thus making ill informed judgements. Which in my opinion, is of no help to this thread. It's getting very annoying!!

 

 

 

You are making statements on issues you have not researched, thus making ill informed judgements. Which in my opinion, is of no help to this thread. It's getting very annoying!!

 

Are you annoyed

[jenlyn]

Oops

Edited November 1, 2012 by jenlyn

[cotswoldsman]

You are making statements on issues you have not researched, thus making ill informed judgements. Which in my opinion, is of no help to this thread. It's getting very annoying!!

 

lol having connection problems, guess you must have done your 24 hours and on the move again!!

[GUMPY]

We heard you the first time!

[Wild Is The Wind]

I can only report what I see daily as my house is within sight of the affected areas, therefore I don't think it can be classed as a sweeping generalisation as I was illustrating why John's (Cotswoldman) case with his use of an empty visitor mooring could be abused by other overstayers. Indeed, he accepted that the example I gave was a possible problem area.

I have several friends and acquaintances who CC perfectly well within the existing guidelines and may well be affected by the action that C&RT seems to be proposing, brought about by the sometimes selfish action of a minority. It will also be unfortunate for my friends if draconian rules are brought in but, having watched the situation here from my house only yards from the central moorings in Skipton over many years I have come to recognise the local CCers that regularly exceed the limits on those moorings and know that they are abusing the limits. Whether those limits are realistic, as per Chris Pink's reply, is another topic altogether and can be argued, but as long as those limits are there then it is incumbent on all boaters to respect them and show consideration to others that might also wish to moor in a honey pot site like central Skipton.

I have also had about 30 years of UK canal boating experience and experienced the situation first hand on the lower Southern Oxford and the southern GU and know that the problem in those areas has got worse over the years.

I don't take offence at your posting at all. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I just don't happen to agree that there isn't a problem and am not surprised that the few are likely to cause a problem for the many.

Roger

 

I see where you are coming from Roger with regard to your local area, but the issue is far more complicated than 'the few causing a problem for the many'. The 'issues' have come to a head because times change for various reasons (even on the canals) and there are probably several different agendas here. Rather than blaming a small group of boaters, i'd like to see C&RT listening to their views and talking about some of the issues for cc'rs. Lack of towpath moorings, affordable rates for towpath moorings and winter moorings, and lack of services are serious issues that are affecting some people's lives even if they are just a small group.

[cotswoldsman]

Rather than blaming a small group of boaters, i'd like to see C&RT listening to their views and talking about some of the issues for cc'rs. Lack of towpath moorings, affordable rates for towpath moorings and winter moorings, and lack of services are serious issues that are affecting some people's lives even if they are just a small group.

 

Can I suggest you pm jenlyn.

Oh I agree with what you have said

[Spesh]

Consulting Council is completely meaningless. In any Civil Action both parties will consult Council and in most cases Council will say they have a good chance of winning, the fact is one party in most cases will lose.

Consulting counsel (assuming you are speaking to a good barrister with expertise in the relevant area of law) for an opinion on the interpretation a court may place on ambiguous legislation isn't meaningless. An experienced barrister will have a highly detailed understanding of both the law itself and equally importantly the methods judges use to determine tricky cases and interpret unclear legislation. Cases will only get to court if things are pretty balanced and therefore both sides are advised that they have a chance of winning. Well, either that or if one side is just determined to press on regardless of the advice received which I suspect is the camp in which Mr Davies fell.

 

Anyway, the opinion here isn't whether a case would be won or not, it's an opinion as to the conduct which is likely to satisfy a court that said conduct is within the meaning of the relevant bit of statute. Obviously such an opinion does not have the force of law, but it's still the best guidance you are going to get as to how that statute will be interpreted short of toddling off to court and having the argument there. It's certainly more sensible than deciding for yourself that moving 500 yards will do the trick.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Spesh

[sueb]

Perhaps a NABO rep should go to this meeting, in the interest of their associated boaters?

If David Fletcher is invited he may well organise something

 

I parted with £15 to NABO rather more than 3 weeks ago.

 

To date I have nothing more to show for it than an email confirming I have parted with £15 to NABO.

 

If NABO is keen to increase its coverage, and represent a greater spread of inland boaters, I think it needs to sharpen its act up a bit.

 

It may be quite normal to get nothing from them for a while, I don't know - but it is hardly impressive.

 

I happen to know via CWDF and Facebook that they have an AGM coming up - but that is the only way I know - they certainly haven't bothered to tell me this as a new member.

Nabo is run by volunteers so it completely depends on what the volunteers are doing. I assume you haven't received a magazine yet. I agree things could be better, if there was a surfeit of volunteers things would be better. i am sorry you won't be able to come to the agm. I am probably going from Reading if anyone wants a lift