Buying our first Narrowboat

[Ratty & Moley]

Hi

 

Thanks for a great site, I'm learning so much every time I log on

We are new to boating having started off with a 22ft cruiser, within a year we have realised we want to progress to a narrowboat. Having never skippered one, I'm a bit dubious about what length We should be looking at? Thinking 30ft ??

I'm also wondering on the trads, it doesn't seem as if the driver gets to sit anywhere?? Or don't they ? Not really knowing what we are doing should we only be looking a boats through a dealer or could we negotiate our way through a private sale?

[Grace and Favour]

Hi

 

Thanks for a great site, I'm learning so much every time I log on

We are new to boating having started off with a 22ft cruiser, within a year we have realised we want to progress to a narrowboat. Having never skippered one, I'm a bit dubious about what length We should be looking at? Thinking 30ft ??

I'm also wondering on the trads, it doesn't seem as if the driver gets to sit anywhere?? Or don't they ? Not really knowing what we are doing should we only be looking a boats through a dealer or could we negotiate our way through a private sale?

 

May I make a serious suggestion .........

 

 

Hire a narrowboat for a week - maybe something between 45 and 57ft - even 60ft if you wish

 

 

You will surprise yourself.........

 

 

(and there's cheap (ish) hirings available at this time of year.)

 

AFTER you've had the week, then come back and ask your questions...........

[Tuscan]

May I make a serious suggestion .........

 

 

Hire a narrowboat for a week - maybe something between 45 and 57ft - even 60ft if you wish

 

 

You will surprise yourself.........

 

 

(and there's cheap (ish) hirings available at this time of year.)

 

AFTER you've had the week, then come back and ask your questions...........

 

 

 

Excellent recomendation also go to a large brokerage and look at as many boats as possible

[Ratty & Moley]

Sound advice thanks, I'll look around for hire places.

[keble]

We started with a 50 ft NB. This is a very easy starting point as you can manoeuvre quite easily, plus you have a reasonable amount of space.

We liked it so much we had it stretched by 10'. Now it is more tricky to get into moorings, but not too hard!

We went for a cruiser stern - more sociable than a trad, plus you can sit on the back rail or (my preference) a bar stool.

But next time I'd seriously consider a semi-trad.

[benfordboy]

Hi

 

Thanks for a great site, I'm learning so much every time I log on

We are new to boating having started off with a 22ft cruiser, within a year we have realised we want to progress to a narrowboat. Having never skippered one, I'm a bit dubious about what length We should be looking at? Thinking 30ft ??

I'm also wondering on the trads, it doesn't seem as if the driver gets to sit anywhere?? Or don't they ? Not really knowing what we are doing should we only be looking a boats through a dealer or could we negotiate our way through a private sale?

 

We also have a 22ft cruiser , but also access to Dads 38ft NB (Springer) , we find both very maneuverable but both extremely different - a cruiser is far more easier to manage but harder in high winds, a NB far less susceptible to hull damage in narrow locks etc , but has a made up double bed / solid fuel stove / shower etc ... plenty of plus & minus points on both types of craft. We have folks at our marina that have downgraded from a 30ft NB to a 23ft cruiser after many yrs & seem to be struggling with owning a cruiser again .... folks that have had a cruiser seem to manage a NB easier ! (I liken it to guitar playing - A bass player will get by & produce music on a 6 string guitar but give a guitarist a long neck bass & they will be lost !! (well it seems that way with my friends !)

 

We have thought about a NB , 30ft is not much more than your 22ft cruiser , if you go for a 'shortie' make sure it has the facilities you need , no point in the extra licence/mooring fees if the boat interior/facilities is no better than your GRP craft IMHO

[Chop!]

Hi Ratty & Moley

 

I agree that you should hire one for a week first.

We just bought a pair of narrowboats and were amazed at the amount of hidden costs that rear their ugly heads after you signed.

Check our itemised list of expenses on our blog :-

My link

 

The best of luck with whatever you buy and I hope you get a lot less problems than we've encountered.

[Ratty & Moley]

Hi Ratty & Moley

 

I agree that you should hire one for a week first.

We just bought a pair of narrowboats and were amazed at the amount of hidden costs that rear their ugly heads after you signed.

Check our itemised list of expenses on our blog :-

My link

 

The best of luck with whatever you buy and I hope you get a lot less problems than we've encountered.

 

Hi Chop

 

Gosh ! I'm exhausted just reading about your adventures !

We looked at a 30ft Owl class today - lovely boat in need of TLC but I think the owner is way off the mark on price. Our offer is in so we'll see if it's meant to be. And yes the offer is subject to survey. I take your point about the hidden costs rearing their ugly heads did the survey not indicate any of the problems beforehand ?or was it only when you got going they became evident ?

Here's me thinking a survey minimises the risk ??

 

Good luck -

Love the blog

 

Rates & Moley

[Québec]

As an alternative to hiring for a week, you could do what we did when we first considered buying a narrowboat (actually we did it AFTER we'd decided to buy one!) i.e. find someone who offers a NB 'training' or 'orientation' trip. We found a great guy who we joined on his boat for a couple of days. He took us through everything we might need to know (well, most of the essential things) from stern to bow, and also travelling along the cut e.g. locks, mooring, winding, safety, etc. Very professional, very useful.

 

Good luck!

[Ratty's Retreat]

Hi Chop

 

Gosh ! I'm exhausted just reading about your adventures !

We looked at a 30ft Owl class today - lovely boat in need of TLC but I think the owner is way off the mark on price. Our offer is in so we'll see if it's meant to be. And yes the offer is subject to survey. I take your point about the hidden costs rearing their ugly heads did the survey not indicate any of the problems beforehand ?or was it only when you got going they became evident ?

Here's me thinking a survey minimises the risk ??

 

Good luck -

Love the blog

 

Rates & Moley

 

Hello Ratty and Moley.

Seems we have something in common!!

 

Check that the length of boatyou are looking at is adequate, Ratty's Retreat is 38' long and ideal for 2 people. We spent a week away with 2 friends and it was cosy. On the other hand you don't want to pay extra for unnecessary length.

 

Good luck in your hunt, as Mr Owl would suit the theme, where's Mr Toad?

[Ratty & Moley]

Hello Ratty and Moley.

Seems we have something in common!!

 

Check that the length of boatyou are looking at is adequate, Ratty's Retreat is 38' long and ideal for 2 people. We spent a week away with 2 friends and it was cosy. On the other hand you don't want to pay extra for unnecessary length.

 

Good luck in your hunt, as Mr Owl would suit the theme, where's Mr Toad?

No mr Owl or Mr Toad just 2 middle aged ladies having fun. We think we have found our boat - 30ft David Piper in excellent condition with 10hp sabb engine. She has been lovingly looked after to the extent I'd almost say fanatically so. There is a foot lever which is the accelerator so I'm not too sure about that ?? Plus the engine is covered with with a radiator situated over the top of the engine, so when it reaches a certain temperature you flick a switch and the fan comes on . Apparently as the hull is so thick and the water doesn't cool it sufficiently on it's own ? Wonder what other folk think about this ?? Other than that she s exactly what we want. Survey done in 2008 shows both hull and engine in excellent condition with no recommendations.

[IanM]

Survey done in 2008 shows both hull and engine in excellent condition with no recommendations.

A lot can happen in 4 years, get your own survey done

[Ratty & Moley]

A lot can happen in 4 years, get your own survey done

 

Indeed we will

[alan_fincher]

Apparently as the hull is so thick and the water doesn't cool it sufficiently on it's own ?

This sounds like total nonsense!

 

If the boat has a closed circuit skin tank cooling, then the skin tank needs to be able to cool the engine on its own, wiythout bodges like you are describing with the fan and switch.

 

Either the skin tank is inadequate, or the Sabb has a fault causing it to generate more heat than intended, (or both!).

 

If you don't fully understand it, pay someone to look at it who does.

 

Sorry to sound harsh - but problems with inadequate cooling systems are not uncommon, and (depending on the boat, and access to fix the problem), sorting it out can prove quite expensive.

 

Don't assume it will be OK - we did that, and it wasn't!

[Ratty & Moley]

This sounds like total nonsense!

 

If the boat has a closed circuit skin tank cooling, then the skin tank needs to be able to cool the engine on its own, wiythout bodges like you are describing with the fan and switch.

 

Either the skin tank is inadequate, or the Sabb has a fault causing it to generate more heat than intended, (or both!).

 

If you don't fully understand it, pay someone to look at it who does.

 

Sorry to sound harsh - but problems with inadequate cooling systems are not uncommon, and (depending on the boat, and access to fix the problem), sorting it out can prove quite expensive.

 

Don't assume it will be OK - we did that, and it wasn't!

Hi Alan

 

Thanks I needed to hear that. We are going to have our own survey done would this be sufficient or do we need additional assessment from someone else ?

 

Regards

[Tuscan]

Perhaps the engine is just air cooled ? But then I would have thought the fan should be automatic. Ask your surveyor to check. I would also have a test run to make sure the engine noise (with fan on) is not too intrusive.

[alan_fincher]

Perhaps the engine is just air cooled ? But then I would have thought the fan should be automatic. Ask your surveyor to check. I would also have a test run to make sure the engine noise (with fan on) is not too intrusive.

No a 10HP Sabb is a water cooled engine.

 

Often these were raw water cooled in the past, so they really need to check what the situation is.

 

The wording "Apparently as the hull is so thick and the water doesn't cool it sufficiently on it's own" is clearly not a fair description of whatever problem the fan is trying to solve, so this needs to be fully understood, and the costs of a proper solution negotiated into the price paid for the boat.

 

Having to have an additional or replacement skin tank added to an existing boat can be fairly expensive, if that's what the problem is. Alternatively something like head gasket failure may mean the Sabb is generating more heat than it should.

 

If it needs the fan, it ain't right!

[Tuscan]

No a 10HP Sabb is a water cooled engine.

 

Often these were raw water cooled in the past, so they really need to check what the situation is.

 

The wording "Apparently as the hull is so thick and the water doesn't cool it sufficiently on it's own" is clearly not a fair description of whatever problem the fan is trying to solve, so this needs to be fully understood, and the costs of a proper solution negotiated into the price paid for the boat.

 

Having to have an additional or replacement skin tank added to an existing boat can be fairly expensive, if that's what the problem is. Alternatively something like head gasket failure may mean the Sabb is generating more heat than it should.

 

If it needs the fan, it ain't right!

 

 

 

 

 

I agree something isn't right, ve never heard of a floor pedal as the accelerator either

[alan_fincher]

Hi Alan

 

Thanks I needed to hear that. We are going to have our own survey done would this be sufficient or do we need additional assessment from someone else ?

 

Regards

You need to understand exactly what the cooling arrangements are supposed to be, and the reasons why they now appear to be inadequate without what basically sounds like a bodge. Make sure your chosen surveyor knows this, and explains it in a way you understand. If you don't understand an explanation, post it on here, and someone will try and explain.

 

A 10HP Sabb should not generate masses of heat, so should not need a particularly big skin tank. I would have thought Piper would have supplied something more than adequate on one of their boats, (assuming it is skin tank cooled).

 

So something isn't right.

 

If it needs the assistance of a fan in canal use, if you ever take it on a fast flowing river, and need to work it a lot harder, there is a very good chance it will then not be cooled enough, and overheat.

 

One nasty fnal thought..... This is not a boat that has been overplated is it ? That could meet the description given. Thee have been cases where a boat has been externally overplated on the outside of an existing hull, leaving blacking and air pockets in between te two layers. That would stop a skin tank working, and mean "the hull is so thick and the water doesn't cool it sufficiently on it's own". That would be bad news though! (How old is the boat, please ?)

 

(All "in my opinion", of course, but I speak as someone who has has to have a new skin tank engineered onto an existing boat, to solve overheating issues).

 

...........I've never heard of a floor pedal as the accelerator either

Well not in a narrow boat!

Edited October 24, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Ratty & Moley]

No a 10HP Sabb is a water cooled engine.

 

Often these were raw water cooled in the past, so they really need to check what the situation is.

 

The wording "Apparently as the hull is so thick and the water doesn't cool it sufficiently on it's own" is clearly not a fair description of whatever problem the fan is trying to solve, so this needs to be fully understood, and the costs of a proper solution negotiated into the price paid for the boat.

 

Having to have an additional or replacement skin tank added to an existing boat can be fairly expensive, if that's what the problem is. Alternatively something like head gasket failure may mean the Sabb is generating more heat than it should.

 

If it needs the fan, it ain't right!

 

Thanks Alan, I am going back again on Sat to talk this through with the Owner. Perhaps f you could advise on some key questions that I should ask in order to fully understand the rationale behind his setup ? That would be most helpful.

 

Much appreciated

[Athy]

When boat hunting years ago, we looked at one which had a foot clutch.

[Ratty & Moley]

The boat was built in 1976 . The engine was completely refurbished 2 years ago.

[alan_fincher]

Thanks Alan, I am going back again on Sat to talk this through with the Owner. Perhaps f you could advise on some key questions that I should ask in order to fully understand the rationale behind his setup ? That would be most helpful.

 

Much appreciated

Water cooled narrow boat engines, (and as far as I'm aware all Sabbs were all water cooled), should be just that - cooled only by some kind of water system.

 

No outside help (like air cooling, from an electric fan)should ever be required.

 

Without going too much into complexities, this is typically achieved in one of two ways.......

 

1) By "raw water". Cold water is sucked from the canal, usually through some kind of strainer arrangements to catch any mud and leaves, used to cool the engine, then spat out again, often as a visible jet over the side. This is common in old boats, but is not often used with modern ones, largely because the systems can clog up with rubbish from the cut.

 

2) By a "skin tank", (sometimes misleadingly called "keel cooling"). Here no canal water is pumped anywhere - there is a closed circuit, as in a car, but where a car would have a radiator to cool the water, a canal boat pumpos it through a "skin tank" engineered on to the side of the boat. Typically a flat thin steel box, integral to the hull, on the side of the "swim", (the pointy back underwater bit!), several feet long, 18" to 2 feet high, and (ideally) thin. You should see two large bore hoses from the engine to connections top and bottom of this. The canal water against the side of the boat should cool the skin tank contents, but no water is taken from the canal.

 

If you have (1) enough water should be pumped from the canal to cool the engine adequately. But from the description, I think it more likely you have (2). If so that skin tank needs to be suitably designed to lose the maximum excess heat the engine ever needs to dump. Frankly a good builder like Piper should get that right all the time, although some well known builders are famous for not always doing so, so there are no guarantees.

 

If you do have (2), then that should meet the whole need. The fan bodge is not a good permanent solution to a cooling system not fully able to cope if it is switched off.

 

In talking about "raw water" cooling, I have deliberately not mentioned (so far!) a complication that most canal boats will have what is called "indirect" rather than "direct" raw water cooling. That is there is there are two water circuits present, with a heat exchanger used to pass heat from one to the other. This means canal water only goes in the heat exchanger, rather than having to pass the whole engine. If someone identifies you have raw water cooling, (either "flavour") we can go into that more, but at the moment I'm assuming there is a skin tank. However, if you establish the boat expels water over the side or out its exhaust when running, then raw water is involved, and we need to understand better the reasons for the fan!

 

Its hard to explain without being there, and pointing at the bits!

 

Alan

 

The boat was built in 1976 . The engine was completely refurbished 2 years ago.

Do you understand the concept of overplating all or part of a boat hull, please ?

 

If so, can you either confrm this one has not been, or, if it has, do you know when ?

 

There have certainly been issues caused on skin tank based cooling systems where overplating is done over an existing skin tank, without making adequate provision to see it still works adequately. If that were the case, proper resolution might be a bit of a pain.

 

Not trying to scare you, but you need to get to the bottom of this.

[Ratty & Moley]

Water cooled narrow boat engines, (and as far as I'm aware all Sabbs were all water cooled), should be just that - cooled only by some kind of water system.

 

No outside help (like air cooling, from an electric fan)should ever be required.

 

Without going too much into complexities, this is typically achieved in one of two ways.......

 

1) By "raw water". Cold water is sucked from the canal, usually through some kind of strainer arrangements to catch any mud and leaves, used to cool the engine, then spat out again, often as a visible jet over the side. This is common in old boats, but is not often used with modern ones, largely because the systems can clog up with rubbish from the cut.

 

2) By a "skin tank", (sometimes misleadingly called "keel cooling"). Here no canal water is pumped anywhere - there is a closed circuit, as in a car, but where a car would have a radiator to cool the water, a canal boat pumpos it through a "skin tank" engineered on to the side of the boat. Typically a flat thin steel box, integral to the hull, on the side of the "swim", (the pointy back underwater bit!), several feet long, 18" to 2 feet high, and (ideally) thin. You should see two large bore hoses from the engine to connections top and bottom of this. The canal water against the side of the boat should cool the skin tank contents, but no water is taken from the canal.

 

If you have (1) enough water should be pumped from the canal to cool the engine adequately. But from the description, I think it more likely you have (2). If so that skin tank needs to be suitably designed to lose the maximum excess heat the engine ever needs to dump. Frankly a good builder like Piper should get that right all the time, although some well known builders are famous for not always doing so, so there are no guarantees.

 

If you do have (2), then that should meet the whole need. The fan bodge is not a good permanent solution to a cooling system not fully able to cope if it is switched off.

 

In talking about "raw water" cooling, I have deliberately not mentioned (so far!) a complication that most canal boats will have what is called "indirect" rather than "direct" raw water cooling. That is there is there are two water circuits present, with a heat exchanger used to pass heat from one to the other. This means canal water only goes in the heat exchanger, rather than having to pass the whole engine. If someone identifies you have raw water cooling, (either "flavour") we can go into that more, but at the moment I'm assuming there is a skin tank. However, if you establish the boat expels water over the side or out its exhaust when running, then raw water is involved, and we need to understand better the reasons for the fan!

 

Its hard to explain without being there, and pointing at the bits!

 

Alan

 

 

Do you understand the concept of overplating all or part of a boat hull, please ?

 

If so, can you either confrm this one has not been, or, if it has, do you know when ?

 

There have certainly been issues caused on skin tank based cooling systems where overplating is done over an existing skin tank, without making adequate provision to see it still works adequately. If that were the case, proper resolution might be a bit of a pain.

 

Not trying to scare you, but you need to get to the bottom of this.

[OldGoat]

I usually like to only comment on matters where I have good quality experience, but in this case I stand to be corrected.

 

I wonder whether the boat was designed to be used with an outboard engine? Space is very cramped on such a short boat and usually light enough to be pushed by an ob: Piper's boats - especially in the early days were / are of good quality, but I've never seen one so short. Being short it could have been constructed of much thinner materials, possiby thinner even than a Springer. That's possibly why you're asking about oveplating?

 

 

The Sabb engine was used in small sailing yachts as an auxiliary - just to get you in and out of the harbour - as it were. The bad point to my mind was that it is direct (sea) water cooled. There have been threads on the YBW and other yachting forums with folk discussing corrosion issues and internal cooling water-ways getting blocked. This should not be a concern on inland fresh waters, but it leads me to think that this sea going engine has been bodged, umm - adapted for canal use. It is certainly idiosyncratic and in that term best left to folks with a mechanical bent. The switched cooling fan further adds to the caveat. I suspect the engine had been added later (perhaps because the owner didn't want to use an outboard on the canals); that would explain why there's no skin tank.

 

 

I'm sure the boat's pretty and that is what has attracted you, but please don't ignore the very unusual technical details. They may be perfectly satisfactory, but.......

BTW does it have a reverse gear? Some sailing boat versions didn't.You may have to stop in a hurry on occasions.

Edited October 24, 2012 by OldGoat