Working photos of FMC Rudd

[ricyoung]

Dear All.

 

Hopefully with your combined knowledge you can help me out with tracking down which colours Rudd carried in.

 

We have very few pictures of Rudd when she was working, probably as she was one of the maintenance boats at Harecastle for much of her Nationalised life. We have one of her in red and green at the bottom of the 21 at Wolverhampton, and one taken on the Shropppie wearing the same colours as she is painted in at present (blue panels / yellow and blue frames with roundels on the engine room).

 

I have always been a fan of the bolder blue and yellow colour schemes, especially the blue panels / all yellow frames like the picture of Ling on the FMC - Ling thread (the inverse of how Shad is painted at the moment). However, since we have no other pictures of Rudd I cannot really justify changing the colours just to suit me as I have no idea if it is any way accurate.

 

Could anyone help out at all? I don't know if there was a particular North / South divide, or whether there was any rhyme or reason for the different Waterways colour schemes. Colours of the Cut doesn't really shed any light.

 

If the worst comes to the worst she will stay as she is, at least we've got a photo to prove it!

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Ric

[Laurence Hogg]

The picture of "Rudd" shown below is taken outside a former Mersey Weaver wharf in the early / mid 1950's and is from the John Jinks collection of which we hold copies. The all yellow sides were applied to some early repaints of craft but mainly in the south, the liveries were stipulated by the D&IWE with set rules as to what went where, a number of variations were tried out some even having scalloped edges. The "traffic" livery was the one shown in the photo and was applied universally. In reality there were variations, Bradlry yard used a much deeper almost midnight blue and in some cases stenciled the lettering, further north an adoption of the former LNER livery was used at Gorton and many variations can be found on northern boats. In the south many little used craft were still in their previous owners colours as late as 1956 as the pictures of the dumped boats in Harefield pit show.

I would say the likelyhood of Rudd having carried the all yellow side scheme is small as the paintwork in this picture shows the standard "Traffic livery" with the blue boot line below the lower gold band:

 

Edited August 30, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[ricyoung]

Many thanks Lawrence, you've answered a question which has been on my mind for a long while. It's interesting that the back of the cabin is painted a much darker colour than I'd normally expect, it looks almost black. I guess this is another example of personal preference in how the boats were painted. It would appear that, if it is black, then the blue of the cabin is quite light. I'll ask Dad if he can scan the other colour photo we have and post it here in case anyone else is interested. If you have any others photos of Rudd I'd love to see them. Thanks again. Ric

[Laurence Hogg]

Many thanks Lawrence, you've answered a question which has been on my mind for a long while. It's interesting that the back of the cabin is painted a much darker colour than I'd normally expect, it looks almost black. I guess this is another example of personal preference in how the boats were painted. It would appear that, if it is black, then the blue of the cabin is quite light. I'll ask Dad if he can scan the other colour photo we have and post it here in case anyone else is interested. If you have any others photos of Rudd I'd love to see them. Thanks again. Ric

The back would be exactly the same colour as the sides, the boat is in the formal "Traffic livery". What you see as black is just the paintwork in the shadow where the full brightness is on the side. You must be careful when interpreting balck and white images as not to assume different shades equal different colours. TWT archive has the full details of how the livery was laid out. Sorry to dissapoint but its a bog standard blue and yellow boat in the standard scheme.

[ricyoung]

Thanks for the advice. I'm still convinced that the shape painted on the back of the cabin - in this case partly covered by the open cabin door - is a much darker colour than the blue of the cabin. Even compared to the (presumably) blue tunnel band which is facing the same direction. Either way, the standard livery is the way we should go, so we'l use the colour image we have as a reference. Cheers. Ric

[Chertsey]

Yes, no way is that effect caused by shadow - the shadow would have to be the exact same shape as the painted section. I"m sorry Laurence but it looks as if you are trying to make the evidence fit a predetermined idea rather than altering the idea to fit the evidence.

[Laurence Hogg]

Yes, no way is that effect caused by shadow - the shadow would have to be the exact same shape as the painted section. I"m sorry Laurence but it looks as if you are trying to make the evidence fit a predetermined idea rather than altering the idea to fit the evidence.

You are totally wrong, My (late) friend John Jinks crewed that boat and confirmed to me that it was in standard BW livery, note "Turtle" shows the same colour, learn to interpret photos please. Note you can see where the sun is by the reflections on the chimney bands.

I have other pictures of the boat which show it as normal livery. There were (later) variations in the NW fleet but by then that boat was a maintainence boat, getting scruffier by the day.

There is no reliable way of interpreting greyscale to colour, even if you know one or more of the colours, in the film game its known as seeing "concrete grass" as concrete and grass can give the same readouts.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[Chertsey]

You are totally wrong, My (late) friend John Jinks crewed that boat and confirmed to me that it was in standard BW livery, note "Turtle" shows the same colour, learn to interpret photos please. Note you can see where the sun is by the reflections on the chimney bands.

I have other pictures of the boat which show it as normal livery. There were (later) variations in the NW fleet but by then that boat was a maintainence boat, getting scruffier by the day.

There is no reliable way of interpreting greyscale to colour, even if you know one or more of the colours, in the film game its known as seeing "concrete grass" as concrete and grass can give the same readouts.

Learn to interpret photos like you interpreted with absolute certainty a photo of Chertsey as being Barnet, in this forum, not so long ago, you mean? Sometimes you can come across as quite arrogant and bullying, you know Laurence.

[Derek R.]

There can indeed be a great range in variation of shades dependent upon available light, the quality and type of photographic film, and processes used to develop same, such that some dark colours can seem almost black, while others varying shades of grey. It is a minefield. Even early colour photography - and later come to that - can produce enormous variations. Agfa always came out with too much green, and some Kodak with too much yellow and red. A lot of people went to Kodak Gold as one attempt to get some actual correct colour, but who knows what lens filters may have been used! Even digital has its variances as I have noted recently in shots of the same boat with different cameras - and that's on screen without printer ink formulations entering the issue. Even our own eyes can have differences in perceiving certain colours. My left picks out greens more than my right - but that's digression.

 

This photographic issue has been spoken of elsewhere, and I remember writing of two films made in B&W of London Buses. All were red with black mudguards, but in one film the whole vehicle looked one dark shade making me wonder if they were indeed the Green overall colour of the Country bus section of LT. They weren't, it was all down to the film and processing.

 

What chance is there of Waterways painting the sides of a cabin in one shade of blue, and a darker one for the rear bulkhead? Two tins cracked open - two sets of brushes - twice the work. The same could be said of it being black, because it would not have been black bitumen - it would need to be gloss. The probability is close to zero. A picture may tell a thousand words, and more than a few lies.

 

Teaching a hog to sing is a waste of time.

[Timleech]

There can indeed be a great range in variation of shades dependent upon available light, the quality and type of photographic film, and processes used to develop same, such that some dark colours can seem almost black, while others varying shades of grey. It is a minefield. Even early colour photography - and later come to that - can produce enormous variations. Agfa always came out with too much green, and some Kodak with too much yellow and red. A lot of people went to Kodak Gold as one attempt to get some actual correct colour, but who knows what lens filters may have been used! Even digital has its variances as I have noted recently in shots of the same boat with different cameras - and that's on screen without printer ink formulations entering the issue. Even our own eyes can have differences in perceiving certain colours. My left picks out greens more than my right - but that's digression.

 

This photographic issue has been spoken of elsewhere, and I remember writing of two films made in B&W of London Buses. All were red with black mudguards, but in one film the whole vehicle looked one dark shade making me wonder if they were indeed the Green overall colour of the Country bus section of LT. They weren't, it was all down to the film and processing.

 

What chance is there of Waterways painting the sides of a cabin in one shade of blue, and a darker one for the rear bulkhead? Two tins cracked open - two sets of brushes - twice the work. The same could be said of it being black, because it would not have been black bitumen - it would need to be gloss. The probability is close to zero. A picture may tell a thousand words, and more than a few lies.

 

Teaching a hog to sing is a waste of time.

 

I suppose the boatmen might have repainted the mouse's ears themselves, in black. Not arguing with those who know about interpreting B&W images, though.

 

I'm more interested in the stool, if that is what it is, on the counter deck. Is it broken, or made like that for a particular purpose?

 

Tim

[Laurence Hogg]

Learn to interpret photos like you interpreted with absolute certainty a photo of Chertsey as being Barnet, in this forum, not so long ago, you mean? Sometimes you can come across as quite arrogant and bullying, you know Laurence.

 

Did you not read the post fully? "My (late) friend John Jinks crewed that boat and confirmed to me that it was in standard BW livery, note "Turtle" shows the same colour, learn to interpret photos please. Note you can see where the sun is by the reflections on the chimney bands"

 

How is this being arrogant and bullying? I spend hours trawling our archives for information and pictures many of which are sent to enquirers completely free of charge to help put together a history or validate a livery, maybe I should pack this up and not bother in future if thats the sort of comments that it generates. I seem to remember I sent you a hi res picture of Chertsey at Northampton not so long back clearly showing the H&W panelling.

 

I deal with B/W archive images everyday as part of my "day job", yes you can make mistakes on pictures where you need to turn to negative images and apply filters to try and evaulate a number or name, but most times I get the answer right, I'm only human btw!.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[Derek R.]

I suppose the boatmen might have repainted the mouse's ears themselves, in black. Not arguing with those who know about interpreting B&W images, though.

 

I'm more interested in the stool, if that is what it is, on the counter deck. Is it broken, or made like that for a particular purpose?

 

Tim

 

It's next to impossible to interpret colours from B&W correctly. Looking at the roses on the cabin doors looks like they were black too, but they were probably red against a green background, which itself could be looked at as being black or almost so. Perhaps a boatman might have painted them himself in black and white - an Ex Anderton man proud of his former company?

 

Yes curious stool. It seems to be propped up at one end with a scallop cutaway between the feet, in which case both the legs appear to be canted inwards at the bottom. Anyone's guess why.

[Laurence Hogg]

It's next to impossible to interpret colours from B&W correctly. Looking at the roses on the cabin doors looks like they were black too, but they were probably red against a green background, which itself could be looked at as being black or almost so. Perhaps a boatman might have painted them himself in black and white - an Ex Anderton man proud of his former company?

 

Yes curious stool. It seems to be propped up at one end with a scallop cutaway between the feet, in which case both the legs appear to be canted inwards at the bottom. Anyone's guess why.

 

I think the stool is resting on the cabin step which is much higher than the counter deck, I do remember that some boatmen had an extra (removable) step to suit people who were a little short.

[RLWP]

It's next to impossible to interpret colours from B&W correctly. Looking at the roses on the cabin doors looks like they were black too, but they were probably red against a green background, which itself could be looked at as being black or almost so. Perhaps a boatman might have painted them himself in black and white - an Ex Anderton man proud of his former company?

 

Yes curious stool. It seems to be propped up at one end with a scallop cutaway between the feet, in which case both the legs appear to be canted inwards at the bottom. Anyone's guess why.

 

Did we do the 'colour representation with different types of film' discussion? Where some type of B&W film represent yellow as black?

 

Not in this case I suspect

 

Richard

[Québec]

I know next to nothing about historic boats and liveries, but I do know about photography and light.

 

Mr. Hogg is incorrect about the shadows and the assumed position of the sun.

 

If you look at the photo and at the various different shadows you can see there are several sources of light. That would indicate that the sun was probably not shining directly, but there was reflection from the sky, to the left. I.e. the chimneys, from above I.e. the shadows beneath the peaked cap and the woman's chin and, crucially in terms of this discussion, from the right I.e. the clear vertical shadow behind the top of the door.

 

The arrangement of shadows would be typical of those taken amongst a group of buildings, with a bright but sunless sky. The main brightness coming from above, but also from the sides.

 

Therefore, it does seem the mouse ears, the visible section of which is clearly not in shadow, are particularly dark in comparison with the sides. As they are unlikely to be red or green, one can only assume they must be either a dark shade of blue or even black.

 

I rest my case, m'lud.

[Derek R.]

Did we do the 'colour representation with different types of film' discussion? Where some type of B&W film represent yellow as black?

 

Not in this case I suspect

 

Richard

 

There was discussion around colours and B&W representation in two threads I've found to date, Though I believe there may be another that included a shot of CAPRICORN in what appears to be different shades of probably blue in a separate thread not yet found. Paul Hunter was seeking further information on the likelihood of different shades of blue.

 

Thread 1

 

Thread 2. That's more about Coronation colours, but B&W does creep in.

[Québec]

Did we do the 'colour representation with different types of film' discussion? Where some type of B&W film represent yellow as black?

 

Not in this case I suspect

 

Richard

 

Looking at the photo it seemed to me that the blue seemed rather light. Then I remembered - and then looked it up to see if my memory still worked - that old B&W film, even when 'panchromatically sensitised' in an attempt to match human perception of colours when reduced to grayscale, ended up rendering blues too lightly and reds too darkly.

[Laurence Hogg]

This is how bad things can get when transposed from photographs, every boat here started life in the "same" shade of blue, however, tricks of the light, shadows, wear and fading have all taken their toll, in black and white you could transpose there were a multitude of colours other than blue. As to the original picture of Rudd I have dozens of pictures of BW traffic livery boats which show an apparently darker colour on the stern bulkhead, this was not so as anyone who knew the boats at the time and saw them will reinforce. If it was the case then many "restored" boats of today would be showing the same. Please dont forget that when the colour schems were designed thay did not have RAL codes, the colours were referred to a dark or mid blue etc, depending which paint company or drysalters you used gave slightly differing colours. We know for sure that the Manders paint used by Bradley workshops was darker than average, but none of the boats in this shot would have been painted there.

 

What seems to ignored in this thread is that some of us saw these colours for real, myself included and any strong variations would be remembered, ie I remember the purple BW motor boat "Apollo" a Cowper boat incorrectly named and with a very odd paint schem.

 

Compare these pictures, remeember all the blue was from the same dock stock.

 

 

and in grey scale:

 

 

Edited to add "Aynho" was freshly docked and painted. The large Northwich between Axe and Aynho is Purton.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[David Schweizer]

When was that photo taken Lawrence? I am sure that I remember Aynho paired with Ayr and captained by Billy Brown in the late 1960's. They were both in very poor decorative order.

[chykensa]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, and having read carefully through this thread, post #5 refers to the 'mouse-ears' (is that what they're called?) on the back of the boat's cabin which are so prominent in Laurence's photos above in colour (post#18)- they appear as black against yellow, and have attached to them the hasps and fastenings for the rear doors.

Ric - please ignore me if I have mis-read things, but I believe it was these that you were referring to in your post #3 as being a much darker colour. There then followed a conversation which highlighted how important it is to take care when interpreting old B&W photos; I'm not sure, but I think there may have been some confusion . . .

[koukouvagia]

 

OK. I've no experience interpretingold photos but I would suggest that the following areas of thepicture deserve close scrutiny.

 

 

 

3 4 2

 

1

 

Area 1 shows the gradation from grey to black on the tunnel band. Presumably this represents a uniform blue all the way round, but what we see is the colour changing to black as it curves away into the shadow.

 

Area 2 shows a similar gradation from grey to black on the curve of the top bend on the butty as itsimilarly changes colour in the shade.

 

Area 3 is interesting because you can see a small area of blue in the sunlight, where it appears light grey – a similar shade to the main panel on Rudd; and a small triangle of a dark shade where the paintwork is in shadow, the same shade as the "mouse-ears" on the back of Rudd's cabin.

 

Area 4 shows what yellow looks like in a black and white photo. We see a bit of the yellow in sunlight and a bit in shade. The darker shade is the same as the yellow on the back of Rudd. This seems to prove that the whole of the back of Rudd is in the shade and that the darker shades of both yellow and blue are,as Lawrence, maintains simply due to the effects of light.

 

I may be completely wrong. Just shows what happens when a complete amateur starts throwing in his two penn'orth.

[Laurence Hogg]

When was that photo taken Lawrence? I am sure that I remember Aynho paired with Ayr and captained by Billy Brown in the late 1960's. They were both in very poor decorative order.

David,

It was 1963 as I understand, "Aynho" was used to hire out to parties and in this occasion it went up to Birmingham via GU returning via Oxford. The picture was from a gent called Graham Berlyn who was on the cruise.

[Laurence Hogg]

 

OK. I've no experience interpretingold photos but I would suggest that the following areas of thepicture deserve close scrutiny.

 

 

 

3 4 2

 

1

 

Area 1 shows the gradation from grey to black on the tunnel band. Presumably this represents a uniform blue all the way round, but what we see is the colour changing to black as it curves away into the shadow.

 

Area 2 shows a similar gradation from grey to black on the curve of the top bend on the butty as itsimilarly changes colour in the shade.

 

Area 3 is interesting because you can see a small area of blue in the sunlight, where it appears light grey – a similar shade to the main panel on Rudd; and a small triangle of a dark shade where the paintwork is in shadow, the same shade as the "mouse-ears" on the back of Rudd's cabin.

 

Area 4 shows what yellow looks like in a black and white photo. We see a bit of the yellow in sunlight and a bit in shade. The darker shade is the same as the yellow on the back of Rudd. This seems to prove that the whole of the back of Rudd is in the shade and that the darker shades of both yellow and blue are,as Lawrence, maintains simply due to the effects of light.

 

I may be completely wrong. Just shows what happens when a complete amateur starts throwing in his two penn'orth.

Well for a so called "amateur" you are spot on in my books, well transposed.

[alan_fincher]

David,

It was 1963 as I understand, "Aynho" was used to hire out to parties and in this occasion it went up to Birmingham via GU returning via Oxford. The picture was from a gent called Graham Berlyn who was on the cruise.

 

That is odd, and would seem inconsistent with the fact that Sam and Gladys Horne had Aynho and Ayr, latterly as the piling boats from Marsworth depot, until they came off onto the land, and presumably Billy Brown and Dolly Dakin took them over directly from them.

 

Pictures show Sam and Gladys as already having Aynho and Ayr in the late 1950s as carrying boats, and there are pictures of them being iced in with them in the bad winter of 62/63, (so they must have had them at the start of 1963).

 

They also say.....

 

"We come in the house in 1966 after three years on the pilings. That was all with the same boats Aynho and Ayr."

 

It would seem a bit strange that the boat was taken from them for the purpose quoted at some point in 63, only to go straight back to them again, (although of course it is not impossible!...)

 

It is entirely possible it was docked around 63, but the picture would definitely imply it had not yet been pressed into use on the piling run.

 

So I'm wondering how it all pieces together, if the story you have is correct, and the date is the right one ?

 

 

 

Nothing to do with colors, of course, so I apologise for digressing further!

[Laurence Hogg]

 

That is odd, and would seem inconsistent with the fact that Sam and Gladys Horne had Aynho and Ayr, latterly as the piling boats from Marsworth depot, until they came off onto the land, and presumably Billy Brown and Dolly Dakin took them over directly from them.

 

Pictures show Sam and Gladys as already having Aynho and Ayr in the late 1950s as carrying boats, and there are pictures of them being iced in with them in the bad winter of 62/63, (so they must have had them at the start of 1963).

 

They also say.....

 

 

 

It would seem a bit strange that the boat was taken from them for the purpose quoted at some point in 63, only to go straight back to them again, (although of course it is not impossible!...)

 

It is entirely possible it was docked around 63, but the picture would definitely imply it had not yet been pressed into use on the piling run.

 

So I'm wondering how it all pieces together, if the story you have is correct, and the date is the right one ?

 

 

 

Nothing to do with colors, of course, so I apologise for digressing further!

Alan,

I have a number of pictures from the trip which was quite extensive but know of no other users of the boat for this purpose, included in the trip are shots of the BW show in Gas St with various boats (inc Ling) on show. I also have slides of the pair at Marsworth in plain blue livery.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Laurence Hogg