Gas installation query

[lexicon]

Right time to stick my head above the parapet of gas questions.

 

Looking at designing my system.

Looking at 2 bottle auto change system then In order.

Alde bubble tester.

1.5m to tee to cooker with 8.1kw output. (all hobs and oven on at same time)

Then 1m to Morco heater 11kw

 

The following points I need advice on.

1) can you get bubble testers in larger than 3/8 size?

2) is it ok to end pipe run at heater or would a stop end be better?

3) would idolaters be better as close to appliance as possible?

4) can I get the system installed by a qualified person? ( as have heard that they won't connect up the Morco as its not room sealed)

 

Thanks for all comments/advice as needed to plan lining and other aspects that rely on location of items etc.

[Cosmic]

I wouldn't bother with the idolaters - disciples are far more reliable, and you can save money if you get a pack of twelve.

 

(sorry, that wasn't much help, was it?)

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Isolating taps enable you to test individual items. end a line at a heater and only use calor pipe and copper compression olives. Better to use a changeover valve but shut the full bottle off. That way you can change to a full bottle and know when you have an empty one. otherwise you end up with 2 empty bottles and a cold wash.

[MtB]

Isolating taps enable you to test individual items. end a line at a heater and only use calor pipe and copper compression olives.

 

Ok I'll weigh in. I do SO wish people who do not know what they are talking about would refrain from answering the gas questions with made up twaddle.

 

 

1) Isolating valves are NOT for testing individual appliances. They are for testing the gas-tightness of the network pipework with appliances isolated.

 

2) End a line at a heater? Why? I'm always keen to learn from an expert

 

3) What is "Calor pipe"?

 

4) The regs state olives must be copper or copper alloy. Brass was a copper alloy when I was at college, IIRC.

 

 

Maybe I'll feel more tolerant tomorrow....

 

Mike

[the grinch]

its usual to put bubble tester at opposite end to bottles/regulator so a 3/8" would be fine

[MtB]

its usual to put bubble tester at opposite end to bottles/regulator so a 3/8" would be fine

 

Eh?

 

I have it in mind that a bubble tester is required to be fitted inside the gas locker.

 

ISTR the BSS demands this but I'm not certain without looking.

 

Mike

 

 

ETA The BSS is ambiguous. it says a system must have a method of testing for gas tightness installed, and one of the options is "a bubble tester installed in a cylinder locker or housing". Dunno what happens if there is a bubble tester NOT installed in a cylinder locker....

Edited July 28, 2012 by Mike the Boilerman

[the grinch]

just quickly calculating you consumption you will be over the permitted draw off for a single 13kg bottle as 19.1Kw converts to 1.39Kg/hour the max draw on a 13Kg bottle is 1.054 Kg/Hour even 19Kg bottles max is 1.319

but allowing for diversity and reducing to 70% (as per page 7 of PD5482-3) the cooker that then reduces to 0.42 approx + 0.80 for morco that gives you 1.22 so you could use a 19kg bottle otherwise its 2 x 13kg per side if using a changeover valve

 

you may be right on that mike i would have to double check!

[bizzard]

Eh?

 

I have it in mind that a bubble tester is required to be fitted inside the gas locker.

 

ISTR the BSS demands this but I'm not certain without looking.

 

Mike

 

 

ETA The BSS is ambiguous. it says a system must have a method of testing for gas tightness installed, and one of the options is "a bubble tester installed in a cylinder locker or housing". Dunno what happens if there is a bubble tester NOT installed in a cylinder locker....

I can't see a bubble tester being allowed in the cabin with that i think glass window in it. The alternative would be a test point for a Manometer i'd say.

[MtB]

I can't see a bubble tester being allowed in the cabin with that i think glass window in it. The alternative would be a test point for a Manometer i'd say.

 

The glass window on a bubble tester is clear acrylic! Even so I'm sure BBS examiners will interpret the BSS as meaning if one is installed, it has to be in the gas locker. Scope for quibbling though!

 

Mike

[the grinch]

can't look it up til the morning as the lpg manual is in the van and i can't see the Alde bubble tester sheet. unless its a BSS thing which makes it necessary to fit in gas locker. even those of us that are qualified can't always answer straight away hence the need for the statutory documents to guide us!

[bizzard]

The glass window on a bubble tester is clear acrylic! Even so I'm sure BBS examiners will interpret the BSS as meaning if one is installed, it has to be in the gas locker. Scope for quibbling though!

 

Mike

I don't particulaly like the things. I prefer the Gas-Low regulators with the gauge on them which i find very reliable and very accurate for doing my own system soundness tests though of course they don't count for a BSS test.

[the grinch]

I can't see a bubble tester being allowed in the cabin with that i think glass window in it. The alternative would be a test point for a Manometer i'd say.

 

so you can't have a sealed unit, but an openable point yes? that would be serious if not so funny!

 

I don't particulaly like the things. I prefer the Gas-Low regulators with the gauge on them which i find very reliable and very accurate for doing my own system soundness tests though of course they don't count for a BSS test.

10 Bar Bourdon Gauge and a 60 Mbar "U" gauge works for me!

[MtB]

I don't particulaly like the things.

 

Nor do I.

 

I have explained in full detail in previous threads why not, but broadly speaking I fitted one to my last boat and it showed the system was sound. My BSS inspector didn't spot it and did a conventional soundness test and revealed a fail! A bit of experimenting showed the bubble tester when used according to the instructions did not reveal the leak, I had to hold the button down for longer than the instructions said to get it to show a bubble.

 

<i>I prefer the Gas-Low regulators with the gauge on them which i find very reliable and very accurate for doing my own system soundness tests though of course they don't count for a BSS test.

 

Never heard of them. Got a link? Do Aquafax sell 'em?

 

More to the point, HOW do you know they are very accurate? Have you created a tiny leak just detectable using a manometer, then seen how the Gas-Low gets on spotting it?

 

Mike

[bizzard]

This is rather odd. I've not checked the BSS regs for the positioning of bubble testers but COULD they really be allowed in the living quarters with this meltable acrylic window in it, after all soft soldered pipe joints and certain diesel fuel glass, plastic canister and drain taps on filters are not allowed. I'm not a qualified gas fitter but the positioning of these bubble testers to be vague and a grey area seems rather dangerous to me.

[lexicon]

Thanks for the advice guys.

 

Couple of additional points. Is there a easy regulator system for 2 13kg bottles? To use both at once?

Will have to check the size of bottles as not had the locker specs finalised and this could be very important.

 

And what is the best way to have end of system designed?

[MtB]

As I stated above, the on ine version of the BSS (which ISTR is acknowledged to be out of date) does not prohibit them from being fitted outside the gas locker.

 

The online BSS states however, that to qualify as a method of soundness testing the system, the bubble tester MUST be installed inside the gas locker.

 

I might just brave the cold and get my printed BSS book from the van....

 

Thanks for the advice guys.

 

Couple of additional points. Is there a easy regulator system for 2 13kg bottles? To use both at once?

Will have to check the size of bottles as not had the locker specs finalised and this could be very important.

 

And what is the best way to have end of system designed?

 

Yes, the two bottles just need to be teed together on the high pressure side before the regulator, and both turned ON at once.

[alan_fincher]

its usual to put bubble tester at opposite end to bottles/regulator so a 3/8" would be fine

 

can't look it up til the morning as the lpg manual is in the van and i can't see the Alde bubble tester sheet. unless its a BSS thing which makes it necessary to fit in gas locker. even those of us that are qualified can't always answer straight away hence the need for the statutory documents to guide us!

 

I don't think I'm missing something here, but a bubble tester can only test the soundness of what lies beyond it in the system, can it ?

 

If it is not in the gas locker, at the start of the circuit, then there would be pipe and fittings before the tester, which could leak, but no bubbles produced in the tester.

 

If it were at the opposite end of the circuit to the cylinders and regulator, (are you really saying that ???), then it is testing nothing, except whatever is used to terminate the line immediately beyond it.

 

As nobody else has picked up on this obvious point, I wonder if I'm simply misunderstanding!

 

so you can't have a sealed unit, but an openable point yes? that would be serious if not so funny!

I can't see it is funny.......

 

A bubble tester does have to be in a gas locker. You can have an open-able point for a manometer that isn't within the gas locker. If you look at the "innards" of a Morco, for instance, it has a test point built in - so yes, open-able joint inside the boat.

 

One argument I know that has been used against test points, versus bubble testers, is that it is an opeanble joint, so how can you be fully certain it is not leaking at all, once you remove the manometer and (hopefully!), seal it up!

[alan_fincher]

As I stated above, the on ine version of the BSS (which ISTR is acknowledged to be out of date) does not prohibit them from being fitted outside the gas locker.

AFAIK, provided you download the 2005 version, (applicable to private boats), what is online is the definitive version, and not out of date.

 

The mistake people have made on here is to quote the 2002 version, (applicable to hire boats), possibly because it used to apply to private ones too, and was what you could get sent free in paper form. (Not possible as a freebie with the 2005, I think ?).

 

To me it is a no brainer a bubble tester must be in the gas locker, as anything before it might be leaking, and it would not detect it. At least if that were the case, and there is a leak in the part it is not monitoring, the venting of the locker should mean that gas goes overboard, not into your cabin bilge. (This possibility always exists anyway, whatever test method you use - damage or dirt at a cylinder connector when a new one goes in can cause a leak, even if everything else has tested out perfectly.)

 

To me the biggest argument in favour of bubble testers, is that they allow regular checking of the system at minimal effort, not relying on only testing it every 4 years, and hoping no leaks develop between the BSS tests. I do take the point they can fail to spot the very smallest leak, if used as documented, but if a small leak was worsening, and you test regularly, you will not be waiting up to 4 years, (or for a big bang), to know that is the situation.

[MtB]

AFAIK, provided you download the 2005 version, (applicable to private boats), what is online is the definitive version, and not out of date.

 

The mistake people have made on here is to quote the 2002 version, (applicable to hire boats), possibly because it used to apply to private ones too, and was what you could get sent free in paper form. (Not possible as a freebie with the 2005, I think ?).

 

To me it is a no brainer a bubble tester must be in the gas locker, as anything before it might be leaking, and it would not detect it. At least if that were the case, and there is a leak in the part it is not monitoring, the venting of the locker should mean that gas goes overboard, not into your cabin bilge. (This possibility always exists anyway, whatever test method you use - damage or dirt at a cylinder connector when a new one goes in can cause a leak, even if everything else has tested out perfectly.)

 

To me the biggest argument in favour of bubble testers, is that they allow regular checking of the system at minimal effort, not relying on only testing it every 4 years, and hoping no leaks develop between the BSS tests. I do take the point they can fail to spot the very smallest leak, if used as documented, but if a small leak was worsening, and you test regularly, you will not be waiting up to 4 years, (or for a big bang), to know that is the situation.

 

You are quite right, the stream of bubbles a bubble tester displays when revealing a leak IS the gas on its way to the leak, so it is only testing the downstream installation.

 

In my view the gas locker is a silly place to fit it though, as it is dark and hard to see and one is therefore FAR less inclined to use it regularly to check. Have you ever tried to use one in a gas locker? You need three hands. One to press the button, one to point the torch, and one to support yourself as you kneel on the foredeck and hang your head and shoulders upside down inside the gas locker (possibly in the pouring rain....)

 

FAR better to fit it immediately outside the gas locker in the daylight and consequently freely accessible, in my opinion. This need only be 30cm further along the gas pipe, and with no more joints than if installed inside the locker (provided the bulkhead fitting is drilled out and a continuous pipe passed through). This way one would be far more likely to use it regularly.

 

And regarding checking a test point for leaks after use, one uses Leak Detection Fluid for that

 

Mike

[lexicon]

I take the point about the dark locker.

However my plan is to have a locker on the cruiser stern doubling as a seat so should be much easier to access etc.

 

I'm still uncertain as to whether the system needs a tee to the morco with a stop end beyond or if it is ok to end the pipe with the connection to the heater with a isolater before it.

[Chris Pink]

The BSS states "as few joints as possible" so no to the tee. It doesn't require an isolation valve as this is only required where an appliance can be removed for cleaning eg cooket, though mine has one so it's ok to fit one (a slight contradiction) and if you're contemplating a tee at some point may be convenient. Bubble testers, containing several joints and a mounting issue are to my mind more hassle that they are worth. In my experience the slightest gas leak is detectable by smell

[pmms]

Ok , going back to '96, I seem to remember that the requirement for the bubble tester to be in the gas locker was an Alde requirement and the Gaslow gauges non acceptance was because the manufacturer would not, or could not, certify how much angular movement of the needle related to how much gas loss.

 

Paul M

[fudd]

You are quite right, the stream of bubbles a bubble tester displays when revealing a leak IS the gas on its way to the leak, so it is only testing the downstream installation.

 

In my view the gas locker is a silly place to fit it though, as it is dark and hard to see and one is therefore FAR less inclined to use it regularly to check. Have you ever tried to use one in a gas locker? You need three hands. One to press the button, one to point the torch, and one to support yourself as you kneel on the foredeck and hang your head and shoulders upside down inside the gas locker (possibly in the pouring rain....)

 

FAR better to fit it immediately outside the gas locker in the daylight and consequently freely accessible, in my opinion. This need only be 30cm further along the gas pipe, and with no more joints than if installed inside the locker (provided the bulkhead fitting is drilled out and a continuous pipe passed through). This way one would be far more likely to use it regularly.

 

And regarding checking a test point for leaks after use, one uses Leak Detection Fluid for that

 

Mike

 

That's where I thought I would fit mine. Under the gunnel after the gas cock. Any leaking gas would escape out of the drain holes in the well deck. It would be in such a place that would be so easy to use. Even daily use wouldnt be any hassle. And it would be just before it goes into the cabin. We have a reverse layout. Obviously I would have to make sure the drain holes are kept clear. Can anyone see any problems with that?

What about the 3/8 bubble tester quiery?

Steve P

[MtB]

I'm still uncertain as to whether the system needs a tee to the morco with a stop end beyond or if it is ok to end the pipe with the connection to the heater with a isolater before it.

 

Lex, the fact that you need to ask this question illustrated a really basic lack of competence and lack of familiarity with the regulations and standards. Even more worryingly, it seems to illustrate that you must be giving weight to advice from unqualified people who are, frankly, making stuff up. OR have you seen an installation done this way? The answer is no, you should not continue the pipe with a tee and finish with a stop end. What would be the point of that? It simply introduces four unnecessary compression joints capable of leaking. And yes the appliance needs an isolation valve. In addition, the BSS requires the installation to be carried out with the minimum possible number of fittings, so would fail a BSS.

 

I saw Rob@BSSOffice's comment in the other thread about not using BSS as an installation standard but I'm afraid I disagree with him. If you don't install to BSS then your installation will fail it's next BSS, so BSS compliance is essential.

 

I think Rob actually meant don't install to BSS alone. You need to install to PD 5482-3 2005 regardless, and, if it's a liveaboard, the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 too.

 

I strongly recommend you read the other thread. It's here: http://www.canalworl...pic=48944&st=40

 

Mike

 

It doesn't require an isolation valve as this is only required where an appliance can be removed for cleaning eg cooket, <snip>

 

Chris I'm afraid PD 5482-3 2005 contradicts you on this.

 

"PD 5482-3 2005 13.2 Appliance isolation valves

Appliance isolation valves should be installed in the supply line to each appliance (unless there is only one appliance, in which case the main shut-off valve is sufficient)."

[nicknorman]

Even more worryingly, it seems to illustrate that you must be giving weight to advice from unqualified people who are, frankly, making stuff up. OR have you seen an installation done this way?

 

Mike I am sure you know your stuff, but it is a pity you have to spend so much effort on pointing this out to everyone at the expense of not answering the questions fully and unemotionally at the first attempt. Sorry but I find the "knowledge is power" type of professional rather irritating.

 

Let face it, connecting some pipes between supply and appliances in a way that is leak proof at the moment and likely to remain so, is not really rocket science. It is the mystique that it is all wrapped in (in order to keep it inaccessible to non-gas-deities) that causes the problems.

Edited July 29, 2012 by nicknorman