Butty stern...?

[RLWP]

Is it a bigger rudder than on a full length butty then? Cos with a full length one you've no choice but to swing it round in a lock, but it shouldn't extend beyond the width of the boat (i.e. it's not more than 3'6 from front to back)

 

Rudder or helm? The rudder looks OK for length, if a bit big for a motor. The helm looks long enough to foul the chamber without the chains

 

Richard

[AJLintern]

Hey why don't we just stick a big caster on the end so it rolls up the lock wall should it get too close?

[carlt]

Rudder - The big blade in the water.

 

Tiller - The stick that the steerer hangs on to.

 

Ram's Head - the Big upright post linking tiller to rudder.

 

Elum - The whole lot.

 

is my understanding.

[paddy r]

Rudder - The big blade in the water.

 

Tiller - The stick that the steerer hangs on to.

 

Ram's Head - the Big upright post linking tiller to rudder.

 

Elum - The whole lot.

 

is my understanding.

 

Sorry my mistake i thought the elum and tiller was two of the same just one for motor one for butty.on the photo the "bit you steer with" looks to long and will foul the chamber when the bit in the water "rudder" swings round.

 

My Teacher at school was right.I am thick. and will sit at the back of the class:banghead:

[carlt]

My Teacher at school was right.I am thick. and will sit at the back of the class:banghead:

You can only know what you have learnt.

 

I learn at least one new thing every day but I think I may be forgetting things at a greater rate, as the years progress.

[alan_fincher]

Hey why don't we just stick a big caster on the end so it rolls up the lock wall should it get too close?

And when you are going down in the lock not up ?

 

What if it is hooked well over the lock-side, at the point it comes level with it ?

 

As its only 40ft. There is 30ft foot to get the elm in the back of the lock.

Yes,

 

But there have been times I would have been capable of damaging a (motor) rudder on a bottom gate with a 40 foot boat, were it not protected by fenders that stick out further than it does.

 

My guess is that some inexperienced people who choose to buy a boat with that style rudder will at some point reverse it into something, or drop it on to a cill.

 

"Real" butty 'elems' are designed to get lifted out, rather than break their mounts, if it does get dropped onto something by accident. It's not obvious to me that the one on that ABC boat will drip off so willingly if you do cill it.

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

"Real" butty 'elems' are designed to get lifted out, rather than break their mounts, if it does get dropped onto something by accident. It's not obvious to me that the one on that ABC boat will drip off so willingly if you do cill it.

 

 

It looks like the helm is sat on two hinge pins, so it should lift off OK

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

It looks like the helm is sat on two hinge pins, so it should lift off OK

And presumably on something on that skeg, although that shouldn't be a problem.

 

It looks to me like it has got to lift straighter and further than a typical "old" butty rudder, and I'm not convinced it is going to come off as easily as they do.

 

But I think it is hard to be sure, TBH.

 

(I still think its a crap idea, but I guess that's fairly obvious!.....)_

[carlt]

It looks like the helm is sat on two hinge pins, so it should lift off OK

 

"Pintle"... and the pintle sits in the "gudgeon".

[RLWP]

"Pintle"... and the pintle sits in the "gudgeon".

 

Geek

 

What's the proper butty name for the pin at the bottom then?

 

Richard

Edited May 22, 2012 by RLWP

[alan_fincher]

"Pintle"... and the pintle sits in the "gudgeon".

Yes, but is it still that if the whole thing is engineered upside-down, and back to front, as they have chosen to do ?

 

The pictures show the "hooks" on the boat, (so needing to point upwards), and the "holes" on the rudder, so I guess it's arguable if it is the same - particularly as it sits "over" not "in" in this case.

 

I suspect the support is also from a third bearing on the skeg ?

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

Actually my eyesight is crap, and the pictures poor, so that's only how I THINK it is constructed!

 

EDITED TO ADD AGAIN:

 

I just used the word "crap" - is some sensitive soul going to ask the mods to remove it, I wonder ?

Edited May 22, 2012 by alan_fincher

[carlt]

Yes, but is it still that if the whole thing is engineered upside-down, and back to front, as they have chosen to do ?

Even though they've hung it like a farm gate, rather than a boat rudder, they still have the same name.

 

I wonder if it will lift off quite so easily that way round.

 

If they were aiming for a "replica" then it is all wrong, the top pintle should drop into a hole in the stern iron and the bottom one should hang in a gudgeon, rather than a "skeg cup bearing" thingy.

 

Geek

 

What's the proper butty name for the pin at the bottom then?

 

"Nerd" actually.

 

I'm not sure what you'd call it because butties (buttys??) don't have a skeg, they just have another pintle and gudgeon hinge at the bottom of the stern post.

[alan_fincher]

If they were aiming for a "replica" then it is all wrong, the top pintle should drop into a hole in the stern iron and the bottom one should hang in a gudgeon, rather than a "skeg cup bearing" thingy.

Oh, I feel "confident" they have done what they have done for very good reasons - why else reinvent the wheel ?

[carlt]

Oh, I feel "confident" they have done what they have done for very good reasons - why else reinvent the wheel ?

They have to do it that way at the bottom because the counter stern needs a skeg but further up they could have hung it conventionally and then had a more authentically curved tiller.

[RLWP]

 

"Nerd" actually.

 

I'm not sure what you'd call it because butties (buttys??) don't have a skeg, they just have another pintle and gudgeon hinge at the bottom of the stern post.

 

Pedant!

 

I think you are correct with "skeg cup bearing thingy" as you have now named a new feature - the bearing on the end of a skeg that shouldn't be there on a butty unless it is a parody with a motor

 

Am I right in thinking some butties were motorised by fitting a hydraulic motor and propeller onto the 'board post and stick bit at the back that steers the boat'*?

 

Richard

 

*Helm

[carlt]

 

Am I right in thinking some butties were motorised by fitting a hydraulic motor and propeller onto the 'board post and stick bit at the back that steers the boat'*?

 

I think so.

 

I forget which one it was I looked at that had the hydraulic hoses piped through the Rams head. Someone will know though.

[Albion]

Rudder - The big blade in the water.

 

Tiller - The stick that the steerer hangs on to.

 

Ram's Head - the Big upright post linking tiller to rudder.

 

Elum - The whole lot.

 

is my understanding.

 

Are you sure about that Carl? My understanding is that the elum is the wooden tiller bar and would be a corruption of helm, as spoken by working boatmen, rather like Josher was a corruption of Joshua. It's interesting trying to get to the bottom of these definitions though.

Roger

[carlt]

It looks like Hazel has a longer bottom gudgeon, to form a kind of skeg, pushing the elum away from the prop, rather than Taplow's set up which had part of the rudder cut away...(this may be relevant to another thread running, rather than this one though. I can't be bothered to read back)

[Albion]

I think so.

 

I forget which one it was I looked at that had the hydraulic hoses piped through the Rams head. Someone will know though.

I don't know a name but have certainly seen pictures of a hydraulic conversion with the hydraulic motor set in the rudder and hydraulic pipes looped across to the Ram's head.

Roger

[AJLintern]

Does it matter how authentic the rudder mountings are, as long as they are strong enough to serve their purpose? Also a motor rudder won't lift off when you stick it on the cill, so how is this any different? Perhaps those chains are adequate in keeping the arc of the tiller within the confines of the boat's width?

As said previously, I don't believe the aim was to accurately replicate a butty, merely a styling exercise on a standard boat.

[carlt]

Are you sure about that Carl?

 

Only as far as from what I've read or been told.

 

Chaplin calls the whole lot the "elum", as does Anthony Walker. Paget Tomlinson uses both "helm" and "elum" for the whole lot (and calls the string I described earlier for securing the rudder to the tunnel hook as a "helm string".

 

Does it matter how authentic the rudder mountings are, as long as they are strong enough to serve their purpose?

Not at all. Any builder is free to build what they like.

 

Does it matter if we have a discussion about it?

[bizzard]

Ideally the Pintles need to be on the stern post and the Gudgeons on the rudder with the lower pintle slightly long than the upper.This makes the rudder much easier to re-ship once unshipped as you start the lower gudgeon on the longer pintle first and then its easy to locate onto the upper one,otherwise there's a big struggle trying to locate both simultaneously.

This is normal practice on most sailing boats and certainly dinghies,whichever way round the gudgeons and pintles are.

[carlt]

Ideally the Pintles need to be on the stern post and the Gudgeons on the rudder with the lower pintle slightly long than the upper.

Sorry but in my experience it has always been the other way round, Pintles on the rudder and Gudgeons on the stern post or transom.

[bizzard]

Sorry but in my experience it has always been the other way round, Pintles on the rudder and Gudgeons on the stern post or transom.

Yes more usual on larger boats,but as i said ''which ever way around'' the lower pintle needs to be longer.

[AJLintern]

Not at all. Any builder is free to build what they like.

 

Does it matter if we have a discussion about it?

Just got the impression people were saying this is how it's done, not like that. Yes discuss away, this is a discussion forum