Morco F-11E room sealed water heater

[Monsoon merchant]

Hi

 

I am looking at installing a Morco to provide an alternative to hot water from the calorifier. Do I understand correctly that this room-sealed model should be fine for BSS regulations, even in a new build?

 

I see that a 240V supply rated at 35W is required to power the flue fan. Would it be worth having a separate small dedicated inverter for this, rather than running the 3KW Victron?

 

The Morco will be located next to the calorifier, so it should be fairly straightforward to have a valve that can be switched to whichever hot water source is required (as discussed on another recent thread)? My only concern is that in the current layout plan, the hot water would have to go right around the circuit before reaching the bath/shower. Is this a problem and is a redesign called for?

 

Lastly, what length of external flue is required.

 

Any advice (layman's terms please ) would be much appreciated.

[Nickhlx]

How about replacing the fan with a 12 volt one ? Not sure if mains is needed to power anything else but you can get e.g. 12V circulating pumps. It would be handy if you didn't have to convert up to 230 V a.c.

 

Nick

 

 

 

 

[blackrose]

 

I am looking at installing a Morco to provide an alternative to hot water from the calorifier. Do I understand correctly that this room-sealed model should be fine for BSS regulations, even in a new build?

 

 

By new build do you mean a sailaway that you're fitting out yourself and you're going down the BSS route rather than RCD?

 

I fitted a non-room sealed gas water heater in my sailaway in 2005. It's passed 2 BSS inspections since then.

 

I don't know about room sealed models but they sound a bit more complicated. My non-room sealed water heater has no electrical connections, fan, etc. It's been tested and draws well with a standard flue terminal http://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/Products/Heating/Lpg/WaterHeater/D61Boiler/Flue/N151CB.aspx

[Chertsey]

A non room sealed one is fine for BSS, there is a specific exemption for them.

So probably no one has the vastly more expensive, both to buy and to run, room sealed version as it would be totally unnecessary.

[Robbo]

I see that a 240V supply rated at 35W is required to power the flue fan. Would it be worth having a separate small dedicated inverter for this, rather than running the 3KW Victron?

 

You may find the Victron is more efficient even than a small cheap inverter.

[blackrose]

 

The Morco will be located next to the calorifier, so it should be fairly straightforward to have a valve that can be switched to whichever hot water source is required (as discussed on another recent thread)? My only concern is that in the current layout plan, the hot water would have to go right around the circuit before reaching the bath/shower. Is this a problem and is a redesign called for?

 

 

My calorifier & gas water heater are located at the back of the cabin and the bathroom & shower are about 30ft up towards the bow. This means I have to waste a bit of cold water before hot water comes out of the shower or bathroom sink. However, unless you have all your hot water outlets including the kitchen sink located next to your hot water sources this will always be the case. (Unless there's some alternative plumbing system that I'm not aware of?)

 

Insulate the hot water pipes and it's not really a problem.

Edited January 22, 2012 by blackrose

[Nickhlx]

You may find the Victron is more efficient even than a small cheap inverter.

 

I think ours only draws around 10 watts "quiescent" ( when nothing else drawing from it )

 

Nick

 

My calorifier & gas water heater are located at the back of the cabin and the bathroom & shower are about 30ft up towards the bow. This means I have to waste a bit of cold water before hot water comes out of the shower or bathroom sink. However, unless you have all your hot water outlets including the kitchen sink located next to your hot water sources this will always be the case. (Unless there's some alternative plumbing system that I'm not aware of?)

 

You could have a pumped domestic hot water loop - fine in winter as the heat would not be wasted, but a bit of a waste of heat and electricity if the engine not running / on the shoreline - I have one of those little brown plastic 7 litres a minute pumps that draws a few watts that I am waiting to find a use for...

 

Nick

[blackrose]

You could have a pumped domestic hot water loop - fine in winter as the heat would not be wasted, but a bit of a waste of heat and electricity if the engine not running / on the shoreline - I have one of those little brown plastic 7 litres a minute pumps that draws a few watts that I am waiting to find a use for...

 

Nick

 

I don't really understand? My hot water pipes are insulated, so heat isn't really wasted as the hot water makes its way to the bathroom. The only thing that's wasted is a bit of cold water while I'm waiting for the hot water to get to those outlets.

 

Edit: I guess you're right though because the hot water left in those pipes loses heat eventually which is why it's cold when I run the taps next time!

Edited January 22, 2012 by blackrose

[Robbo]

I don't really understand? My hot water pipes are insulated, so heat isn't really wasted as the hot water makes its way to the bathroom. The only thing that's wasted is a bit of cold water while I'm waiting for the hot water to get to those outlets.

 

The pump save's water, nothing else.

[Nickhlx]

I don't really understand? My hot water pipes are insulated, so heat isn't really wasted as the hot water makes its way to the bathroom. The only thing that's wasted is a bit of cold water while I'm waiting for the hot water to get to those outlets.

 

Edit: I guess you're right though because the hot water left in those pipes loses heat eventually which is why it's cold when I run the taps next time!

 

Even then its only "wasted" heat in the summer months when the doors and windows are open - in the winter it helps keep the inside warm - if routed through a cupboard and deliberately left uninsulated it would serve to help reduce condensation and even warm / dry clothes etc. You could put the pump on a timer or switch to come on when you wanted it to, or when something else was on ( e.g. the shoreline / engine etc )

 

I do plan to do something similar to warm / dry some of the cold corners / cupboards in the boat, but its low on the priorities list at the moment...

 

ETA - its only the cold slug of water you draw down in waiting for the hot to arrive that you waste / potentially save as Robbo says

 

Nick

Edited January 22, 2012 by Nickhlx

[blackrose]

 

ETA - its only the cold slug of water you draw down in waiting for the hot to arrive that you waste / potentially save as Robbo says

 

Nick

 

Surely I waste the hot water in those pipes too if it's left for any length of time, even though the pipes are insulated?

[Monsoon merchant]

Thanks for quick responses folks.

 

One advantage of room-sealed over other models seems to be that it has automatic electronic ignition and so has no pilot light wasting gas - any thoughts on this?

 

Please forgive this next question, as it may be totally stupid . I was imagining the water circuit as a complete loop, going up one side of the boat and back down the other. When I said that the water heater would be at the other end of the circuit, this was assuming the water would be flowing in one direction. But if it was flowing in the other direction, the water heater would be very near the bathroom!

 

Have I got completely the wrong end of the stick here?

Edited January 22, 2012 by Monsoon merchant

[Robbo]

Surely I waste the hot water in those pipes too if it's left for any length of time, even though the pipes are insulated?

 

Only thinner pipes and/or having the hot water source nearer the outlets can solve that. The pump system is used in large buildings as the hot water source can sometimes be a fair distance away from the outlet

[blackrose]

 

Please forgive this next question, as it may be totally stupid . I was imagining the water circuit as a complete loop, going up one side of the boat and back down the other. When I said that the water heater would be at the other end of the circuit, this was assuming the water would be flowing in one direction. But if it was flowing in the other direction, the water heater would be very near the bathroom!

 

Have I got completely the wrong end of the stick here?

 

Are you having water outlets on both sides of the boat? Even then I don't see why you need a complete loop - assuming your water tank and water pump are at the bow then you could have two branches coming down either side.

 

Edit: I think you may have misunderstood - the pump will pressurise the system and the water doesn't flow around a loop, one way or another. The system stays pressurised until you turn on a tap - then when the pressure is reduced to a certain level (the cut-in pressure of the pump's pressure switch) the pump will repressurise the system. If you have an accumulator tank fitted just downstream of the pump it smooths out these cycles a bit.

Edited January 22, 2012 by blackrose

[mrsmelly]

You may find the Victron is more efficient even than a small cheap inverter.

 

I would agree with this. On my last boat I had an awesome mastervolt inverter that only took 0.4 of an amp on standby. On this boat I have the cheapo sterling equivelant but its standby draw is ludicrously high. I dont know if victron are as good as mastevolt yet but I would think their standby draw would be more akin to mastervolt than stirling.

[Nickhlx]

Are you having water outlets on both sides of the boat? Even then I don't see why you need a complete loop - assuming your water tank and water pump are at the bow then you could have two branches coming down either side.

 

Even with insulation a pipe will lose the heat to ambient, only slower... If you are e.g. preparing a meal and need short bursts of hot water every few minutes, an uninsulated pipe will lose a fair bit of heat in between draw offs. An Insulated pipe will cool much less quickly.

 

 

On the subject of whether a continuous loop is "needed", if its not continuous and back to the hot water tank, how will it circulate and keep hot ? I would have thought it usually unnecessary on a boat as the hot water is usually up at quite / very high temps as the tanks are relatively small, so turning a tap on and having to immediately add cold to stop scalding ( unless you have a sub-sink mixer protecting against that ) would actually be preferable / safer...

 

I think ours is piped with 15mm plastic throughout and there is only a few seconds delay from cold even to the kitchen sink (furthest from the DHW tank)

 

Nick

Edited January 22, 2012 by Nickhlx

[blackrose]

On the subject of whether a continuous loop is "needed", if its not continuous and back to the hot water tank, how will it circulate and keep hot ?

 

Yes, of course the calorifier will need a cold water feed.

 

Are there any typical boat plumbing layout diagrams available as I fear we may be confusing the OP?

 

Edit: Sorry, it's very basic but it's a start http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/16.htm

 

However, I wouldn't use flexible hose as he says - use Speedfit or Hep20 plastic pipe (apart from connecting the pump - use flexible hose for that).

Edited January 22, 2012 by blackrose

[Monsoon merchant]

Still confused by the loop idea.

 

The layout is such that the calorifier and Morco (if we go ahead) will be at the rear of the boat. The shower is towards the rear on the other side. The kitchen sink is on the same side as the calorifier (so outlets on both sides of boat).

 

My (probably flawed) logic is that if there is not a continuous loop, hot water for the shower will have to travel up one side and back down the other, before any hot water comes out. If there was a loop, it would just have to travel across the back of the boat?

[blackrose]

Still confused by the loop idea.

 

The layout is such that the calorifier and Morco (if we go ahead) will be at the rear of the boat. The shower is towards the rear on the other side. The kitchen sink is on the same side as the calorifier (so outlets on both sides of boat).

 

My (probably flawed) logic is that if there is not a continuous loop, hot water for the shower will have to travel up one side and back down the other, before any hot water comes out. If there was a loop, it would just have to travel across the back of the boat?

 

I'm confused now... if you T off the hot water pipe from your calorifier/Morco and have a hot water branch on each side of the boat surely the hot water will be able to travel up both sides? No?

 

If that wasn't possible how does the hot water get out of my shower head and my kitchen sink tap? Those outlets are just branched off the main run, but it doesn't matter how you configure the branches on your boat. You end up with a main hot water run on each side of the boat but it's the same thing. Connect it up into a complete loop at the other end of the boat if you want to - I don't think it will make any difference.

Edited January 22, 2012 by blackrose

[Chertsey]

I don't really understand? My hot water pipes are insulated, so heat isn't really wasted as the hot water makes its way to the bathroom. The only thing that's wasted is a bit of cold water while I'm waiting for the hot water to get to those outlets.

 

Edit: I guess you're right though because the hot water left in those pipes loses heat eventually which is why it's cold when I run the taps next time!

I think this is what is good about Bakewell's system. The bathroom is right next to the calorifier, whilst the kitchen is a long way away. But running off the cold in the kitchen can be done into a kettle, which then sits on top of the squirrel, to go in the next lot of washing up. The Paloma however is in the kitchen, so I envisage either cold showers or wasted water in the summer. That's once we've replaced the Paloma of course, which has the classic water leak, and is probably going to have to be replaced with a vastly inferior Morco.

[NBMike]

Hi

 

I am looking at installing a Morco to provide an alternative to hot water from the calorifier. Do I understand correctly that this room-sealed model should be fine for BSS regulations, even in a new build?

 

I see that a 240V supply rated at 35W is required to power the flue fan. Would it be worth having a separate small dedicated inverter for this, rather than running the 3KW Victron?

 

The Morco will be located next to the calorifier, so it should be fairly straightforward to have a valve that can be switched to whichever hot water source is required (as discussed on another recent thread)? My only concern is that in the current layout plan, the hot water would have to go right around the circuit before reaching the bath/shower. Is this a problem and is a redesign called for?

 

Lastly, what length of external flue is required.

 

Any advice (layman's terms please ) would be much appreciated.

 

Regarding the length of external flue. With the morco F11e you'll struggle to get the supplied mandatory flue short enough to get under bridges, tunnels etc.

Edited January 22, 2012 by NBMike

[blackrose]

Thanks for quick responses folks.

 

One advantage of room-sealed over other models seems to be that it has automatic electronic ignition and so has no pilot light wasting gas - any thoughts on this?

 

 

There are advantages and disadvantages with any variants of equipment. If you're only using the gas water heater as a secondary source of hot water then you wouldn't be wasting that much gas with the pilot light. I only light mine as and when required which isn't that often, so it's not on all day. It's swings and roundabouts - it sounds like with a room sealed heater you'll be wasting a little battery power to run the fan (if you're not on shore power). I prefer systems that can work independently. Suppose your inverter stops working for some reason - will you still be able to run the room sealed Morco?

[Monsoon merchant]

Thanks Blackrose, that's sounding pretty convincing. I think I had noticed on the BSS site that they 'recommend' room sealed, but it seems like most people feel that is overkill.

 

What model/capacity of Morco do you have? And following on from Chertsey's point, what length external flue is required?

 

Thanks.

[blackrose]

I have a Vaillant with the flue that I posted the link to in an earlier post on this thread (post 3). I bought the heater from my chandlers for about 130 quid.

 

I'd go with the flue that the manufacturer recommends of whatever water heater you end up getting. If they recommend a particularly long flue then perhaps that's a heater to avoid - unless you don't mind taking it off when you move the boat.

 

I hope I explained it properly before - since the water system is pressurised by the pump it will come out wherever you open a tap. Therefore you don't need to plumb a complete circuit - in fact that's just wasted pipework and might even lead to more wasted water while you're waiting for the hot to come through to the taps. Use the minimum amount of pipework possible.

Edited January 22, 2012 by blackrose

[pmms]

I would urge you to look at the gas consumption of this heater and compare that to the ability of your chosen gas bottles/regulator to supply the heater. Remember on your BSS the examiner will run all LPG appliances at their maximum to evaluate the flames for an efficient flame picture. I have heard reports that 13/15kg bottles do not have sufficient "take off" of gas to run this heater and when run with any other appliances poor flames result.

 

Paul M