Petition for Boaters Manifesto

[Rebotco]

There has been much valuable comment on this topic (+ much dross from the usual suspects). But I think there is also quite a bit of confusion around too. Some might find it helpful to be reminded of the FACTS.

 

1. The CaRT will be the executive power running the waterways after April 2012. The 8 x founding trustees have been appointed by the government. THREE (T.Hales, John Bridgeman, Nigel Hugill) are from BW, the other FIVE are are from other organisations like English Heritage, The Ramblers, Commercial Boat Operators(i.e. John Dodwell) etc. They are all UNPAID. Their appointment is for ONE year.

 

2. Alongside this, these Trustees are seeking a Council of 35 members to ADVISE them. Although it will have enormous influence on the trustees, it has no executive role and will not be running the canals, but crucially, IT WILL elect future trustees. It is to this Council that 5 ordinary boaters can be elected, as long as they hold a 12 mth licence and can produce 10 other boaters (with 12 mth licences) to nominate them. Nominations open on 12th December 2011. Form will be available then on BW website to download.

 

3. These 8 founding trustees are responsible for negotiating the terms of transfer from BW to themselves. It is to them the BOATERS' MANIFESTO has been sent to tell them what boaters' think, and hopefully aid their negotiations in the transfer.

 

I have taken quite a bit of trouble to ensure these details are accurate, but I am offering no guarantee! Most boaters are sensible adults and do not to be spoon-fed every detail. So please check it out yourselves and this should remove a lot of the inaccuracies and misunderstandings that have been posted.

Hope you find it useful

Brian

Edited November 27, 2011 by Rebotco

[Higgs]

Not that I'm getting dragged into the playtime mentality, but I signed it as I can't particularly see that any of the points of the manifesto have a negative impact on boaters or the canal system. Sitting down and doing nothing however, would.

 

Cap'n Jack

 

No probs. Welcome; keep your powder dry.

[Rebotco]

I may have missed this, but who will be eligible to vote in this election of 5 boaters to the council? We know the requirements for nomination (far too onerous and exclusive IMO), but how will one register to vote. It seems an election is being organised with very little organisation at all.

 

I think you will find it has been reasonably well organised.

 

Nominations open on 12/12/11 and close on 18/01/12. You should hold a 12 mth BW licence at the cutoff date. You will need 10 sponsors also holding 12 mth licences. Voting will take place from 8/2/12 to 9/3/12 by website, SMS and post.

 

To get the nomination form go to www.canalrivertrust.org.uk/councilnomination but it may not have gone live yet.

 

Hope that helps

Brian

[Mac of Cygnet]

I think you will find it has been reasonably well organised.

 

Nominations open on 12/12/11 and close on 18/01/12. You should hold a 12 mth BW licence at the cutoff date. You will need 10 sponsors also holding 12 mth licences. Voting will take place from 8/2/12 to 9/3/12 by website, SMS and post.

 

To get the nomination form go to www.canalrivertrust.org.uk/councilnomination but it may not have gone live yet.

 

Hope that helps

Brian

 

Well, no, you haven't answered my question at all. I didn't ask about nomination, which has been laid out in detail, but about voting. Will all 12-month licence holders be contacted with a voting form? I mean, a real paper form, like I get from National Trust for Scotland, for example?

[deletedaccount]

If anyone wishes to carry on this discussion in his own domain you can see his facebook group here:

 

http://www.facebook.com/groups/boatersmanifesto/?notif_t=group_activity

 

I have a feeling he failed to 'consult' here because he doesn't like us, and he doesn't like us because we don't agree with everything he says.

[jenlyn]

If anyone wishes to carry on this discussion in his own domain you can see his facebook group here:

 

http://www.facebook.com/groups/boatersmanifesto/?notif_t=group_activity

 

I have a feeling he failed to 'consult' here because he doesn't like us, and he doesn't like us because we don't agree with everything he says.

It wouldn't be the fact that several on here can't do anymore than criticise rather than be constructive, or perhaps even get involved? Would be better than sitting in front of keyboard, making noises. Tell me, what would you suggest to get boaters involved in the new charity?

[carlt]

It wouldn't be the fact that several on here can't do anymore than criticise rather than be constructive, or perhaps even get involved? Would be better than sitting in front of keyboard, making noises. Tell me, what would you suggest to get boaters involved in the new charity?

The main discussion here is that this "manifesto" and its author just criticises, is divisive and destructive.

 

Separating boaters from other users is just ridiculous, especially considering the strength of their lobby and the weakness of ours.

 

and what exactly do you do, other than slag of anyone who wants an intelligent discussion?

 

I know as much about your "contribution" to the waterways as you do about mine...nothing, so who are you to criticise someone else's activity?...nobody.

 

All I see is you coming onto a forum and sniping at someone else for coming onto a forum.

 

How constructive.

 

Edited to add: (lol )

Edited November 28, 2011 by carlt

[Guest]

No I thought it was

 

:-) lol

 

 

 

 

..

Edited November 28, 2011 by MJG

[jenlyn]

The main discussion here is that this "manifesto" and its author just criticises, is divisive and destructive.

 

Separating boaters from other users is just ridiculous, especially considering the strength of their lobby and the weakness of ours.

 

and what exactly do you do, other than slag of anyone who wants an intelligent discussion?

 

I know as much about your "contribution" to the waterways as you do about mine...nothing, so who are you to criticise someone else's activity?...nobody.

 

All I see is you coming onto a forum and sniping at someone else for coming onto a forum.

 

How constructive.

 

Edited to add: (lol )

Your debating tactics are weak Carl, using silly playground tactics, it's boring, that's why I and many others laugh lol :-)

[Rebotco]

Well, no, you haven't answered my question at all. I didn't ask about nomination, which has been laid out in detail, but about voting. Will all 12-month licence holders be contacted with a voting form? I mean, a real paper form, like I get from National Trust for Scotland, for example?

I know you didn't ask about nominating, but that has to come BEFORE voting! And there are others for whom that information is relevant. Furthermore, I think I did answer your question about voting as far as anyone can. As I said, their website says voting will be via their website AND by SMS AND by post. I would take that to mean ANY boater who can quote their valid BW licence number can vote in one of three different ways. Whether it is like your NT voting arrangement, I wouldn't know.

 

Brian

[carlt]

Your debating tactics are weak Carl, using silly playground tactics, it's boring, that's why I and many others laugh lol :-)

Really?

 

I only come here for a DISCUSSION. It's idiots like you who spoil it.

 

You have contributed nothing except slag me off.

 

All the authors of the manifesto have done is written something. All I, and others, have done is written something different.

 

All you have done is snipe...you are a troll with nothing intelligent or constructive to add.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Well, no, you haven't answered my question at all. I didn't ask about nomination, which has been laid out in detail, but about voting. Will all 12-month licence holders be contacted with a voting form? I mean, a real paper form, like I get from National Trust for Scotland, for example?

 

I will answer your question then -

 

Voting will take place between 8 February and 9 March 2012 via a designated website or by SMS text. Voting by post will also be possible, but this is a one off and will be discontinued.

 

The first election will be managed by Electoral Reform Services.

 

I also responded to a post by Sueb elsewhere on disenfranchised boaters which may be of interest. Many boats are jointly owned or at least used by couples. Sue pointed out that this is unfair as only the boater who is the licence holder is entitled to vote.

 

I have suggested that anyone who falls foul of this and wants a separate vote registers as a second owner. This is allowed under BW's licencing terms and conditions -

 

If you own a share of a boat, a standard licence will be issued providing that all of the following

requirements are met:

1. None of the share owners has any interest in the boat other than for personal, pleasure use.

2. The licence holder (the boat’s lawful keeper) is one or two of the share owners, nominated by all

other share owners to be responsible for meeting BW’s Licence Terms and Conditions, including

insurance and boat safety requirements.

3. None of the share owners has any interest in the boat other than for personal, pleasure use.

4. The licence holder is the person (or people) named as the insured on the boat’s insurance certificate.

5. The licence holder, in consultation only with other share owners, is responsible for all decisions

relating to control and administration of the boat throughout the year. This includes determining

where the boat is berthed and who uses it when.

6. The boat’s livery does not display an association with any company engaged in the boat share

business

 

Obviously if the boat only has one owner, then technically some simple shared ownership agreement is needed.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Guest]

Your debating tactics are weak Carl, using silly playground tactics, it's boring, that's why I and many others laugh lol :-)

 

Thought so...

[carlt]

I also responded to a post by Sueb elsewhere on disenfranchised boaters which may be of interest. Many boats are jointly owned or at least used by couples. Sue pointed out that this is unfair as only the boater who is the licence holder is entitled to vote.

 

There are also hirers who spend more time boating than many boatowners.

[jenlyn]

Really?

 

I only come here for a DISCUSSION. It's idiots like you who spoil it.

 

You have contributed nothing except slag me off.

 

All the authors of the manifesto have done is written something. All I, and others, have done is written something different.

 

All you have done is snipe...you are a troll with nothing intelligent or constructive to add.

(makes mental note not to go in the girlies playground again) :-)

[carlt]

(makes mental note not to go in the girlies playground again) :-)

So how about a constructive conversation, instead of th childish rubbish you keep posting?

 

Grow up and stop trashing this thread.

[mayalld]

Your debating tactics are weak Carl, using silly playground tactics, it's boring, that's why I and many others laugh lol :-)

 

Well, I seldom think that Carl is right, but I have never found his debating skills to be wanting.

 

If you laugh, it says more about you than Carl

[Guest]

(makes mental note not to go in the girlies playground again) :-)

 

As ever when a troll slides out from under it's stone with what it thinks is a clever response it exposes itself as exactly what it is...something you wouldn't want on the sole of your shoe....

[jenlyn]

So how about a constructive conversation, instead of th childish rubbish you keep posting?

 

Grow up and stop trashing this thread.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

There are also hirers who spend more time boating than many boatowners.

 

That is very true, but they are represented by the two trade council members

[deletedaccount]

Well peter has so far failed to address any of the points put to him and gone down the jenlyn route of attacking the questioner rather than the questions.

 

Sad really, he just can't handle any form of dissension, let alone criticism. What he fails to see is that we're on the same side.

[Guest]

 

Jeeze why do you bother trying...pathetic..

[jenlyn]

As ever when a troll slides out from under it's stone with what it thinks is a clever response it exposes itself as exactly what it is...something you wouldn't want on the sole of your shoe....

Is that your CV? Oh dear lol

[Guest]

Is that your CV? Oh dear lol

 

You missed a bit :-)

[carlt]

To try and get this back on topic, here's my take on the "manifesto".

 

1. Waterways are about boats and boaters and the Canal and River Trust needs to

listen to boaters more closely and have more representatives on the board.

This is just a silly statement.

 

The waterways are about nmany different things and, despite us wishing it might be different, Boaters are in the minority of Waterways users.

 

2. Before the Canal and River Trust accepts the legal burden of running the

waterways it must ensure proper funding to keep all waterways open, navigable

and properly maintained, otherwise it should refuse to do so.

The waterways will not be a priority, for funding, whether the new charity takes over or not and it is unrealistic to expect any different.

 

A more realistic demand would be that the new charity uses its funding far more efficiently than its predecessor. We are not going to get any more money so there is no point bleating about it.

 

3. Boaters have lost faith in the most senior management of British Waterways and believe that the government should accept the cost of making them redundant to give the

Canal and River Trust a fresh start.

 

I don't disagree but it will be dismissed as sour grapes and will not be acted on.

 

4. The Canal and River Trust must develop a system of working that values full time paid staff and their skills above the expediency of using cheap contractors in order to maintain the skilled workforce the waterways require.

 

This is just a paragraph written by someone who doesn't understand civil engineering. Canal maintenance is not rocket science.

 

5. The Canal and River Trust must enforce a simplified set of mooring rules across

the entire waterways system without fear or favour.

 

And what on earth does this mean? No solutions offered, just a sweeping statement.

 

6. The Trust must make it a priority to ensure non-boating users of the system make a financial contribution to its upkeep and that their use of the system does not impinge on its primary purpose of navigation.

Plain arrogance. If non-boaters stopped their contributions then navigation would grind to a halt.

 

7. The Canal and River Trust must ensure it is open to Freedom of Information Act

requests and operate in a totally transparent fashion if it is to earn and

retain confidence.

agreed but a charity is far more accountable than BW has ever been.

 

8. Those for whom the waterways are a home have a special interest in and value to the Canal and River Trust and should be clearly represented at board level and consulted on all navigational issues.

 

Sorry but they contribute the same as a leisure boater so why should they have a greater say?

 

I suspect this is a sop to get the RBOA on board.

 

That is very true, but they are represented by the two trade council members

No the hire companies are represented...a totally different thing