HELP ! tips on starting a jp3

[sinkingbarge]

hi there just bought a barge with a starter motor less jp3

 

the starters just been swapped but i havent got it to fit properly yet. it is attached to a wooden beam not metal so getting it to fit nicely to the already half chewed flywheel looked tough so i had a go at hand cranking it but its not going as easily as on the youtube videos.

 

any advice. its not run for 3 years.

 

easystart spray ? any thought.

 

note that i have 3 red levers on top of 3 rocker covers. ive been putting them to the easy turn position then ive tried flipping them over while cranking the engine over with a hand lever.

 

also i removed the copper pipes to the injectors and they drip diesel out when the engines cranked if i move a throttle lever into the 'fast' position not the slow position.

 

is there a way to improve compression by for example pouring oil down into the piston.

 

any advise to get this beast up and running would be gladly appreciated !

 

btw it was water cooled not air cooled. how long can they be run without water if i can get it to fire.

 

also when cranking by hand the prop shaft turns. i cant seem to find a neutral postition on the gear lever its either in forward or reverse. dont know if somethings glued together over time or wear.

 

whos good for spare parts ?

 

 

any advice or suggestions very welcome

 

many thanks in advance

 

Dave

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Only vague info, do not use easystart very bad!! I use an oil can to squirt oil into the inlet valves that helps when my Lister fr is sulking. there are high pressure wheels on the side of the JP which if set either in or out? increased the compression for starting. The workshop manual recommends that you pour a half pint of oil into the rocker covers to lubricate the rocker assembly. The decompression leavers on the top of the engine are to allow the engine to be spun over quickly enough to allow the engine to fire when they are dropped. You might try dropping just one and seeing if any one cylinder fires. While any engine creates heat when firing it should be all right for a minuet or two without water.

[jake_crew]

If you can wind the engine over with the decomp levers in the "NON easy turn" position, it suggests you have poor compression.

 

Do the injectors creak (ie you can hear the squirt) while you're hand cranking ? If not, perhaps the injector fuel pump isn't the full shilling.

 

Kookavagia has a video somewhere showing how he wound a cord round the hand crank shaft and tied it to the decomp lever. After say 10 turns of the start handle, the decomp lever is pulled over automatically. I guess you'd need three bits of cord. But this would allow you to keep winding by hand at full effort.

 

Either that or borrow a small child to flip the decomp levers for you.

 

Try warming the air & inlet housing with a blow lamp for a while.

 

Running dry should be OK if done for literally only a minute. As well as cooling, the water spreads the heat round evenly and prevents hot spots. Filling the water jacket and pipe work would be beneficial even if you have no pump.

[steamraiser2]

With the fuel system bled correctly crank the engine over decompressed and listen for each injector creaking. If you hear that they are ensure that the three hand wheels are turned clockwise right in tight (high compression). If the engine has been stood a long time oil the valve a little (just slop a little over them as they stick sometimes) Make sure that the fuel pump rack is moving freely and is set at maximum fuel. Wind the engine briskly over with the de-compressors lifted and knock them down one at a time (it's a good idea to have an assistant do this).It should fire up as JPs are good starters. If you have no luck try putting a blow lamp into the air intake for a few minutes. Avoid easy start at all costs..its the diesel engine equivalent of cocaine, one snort and your hooked! If the compression is very low squirt a little engine oil in to each inlet port. Take a look at the videos on the Marine Power Services website. You will see Martyn hand starting a JP3 that was dumped outside for 20 years. All sparks and smoke but she ran! When you get it started do not run it for more than a minute or two without water if you don't want to cook the cylinder heads. One more thing...sort your starter mount! They are normally fixed to the engine bed steel work not bolted to the woodwork! You will trash the ring gear and you don't want to be buying a new one of those. We make them and the cost of doing so is eye watering!

[sebrof]

I have a JP3 and no starter motor. It's an easy engine to start when you know how.

 

If you have a pawl on the injector pump, move it so that the throttle can be opened more than normal, and wedge it wide open.

 

With the red compression valves screwed in tight, and de-compression levers upright, turn the engine over several times, until the injectors creak. Then speed up, using just your right hand, and resting your left hand on the nearest rocker cover next to the de-compression lever. When you're going well, throw down the lever on the first cylinder with your left hand, and keep cranking until the first cylinder fires.

 

If it doesn't fire, then the most likely causes are:

 

1 You are not getting fuel. Bleed the system to the injector pump, and crank the engine a few times. The injectors will creak when the fuel is getting through.

 

2 There is not enough compression. If you can turn the engine with the levers down, you have a compression problem. This may cure itself once the engine starts running, so identify the cylinder with most compression, and try to start with that. If that doesn't work, you may need professional help. Get a friend to help with the levers, if the first cylinder isn't working.

 

Don't strain yourself. You can get up quite a good speed by working up to it gradually. Trying too hard is a waste of effort because the flywheel is heavy, and you are better off letting the speed build slowly.

 

Once the first cylinder has fired, throw down the other levers, and un-wedge the throttle. Then listen to that lovely gentle thumping sound and thank God you have a real engine.

 

Don't worry too much about being in gear. I often start mine in gear when in a hurry to evade creditors or get to the pub. Just make sure you are moored securely.

 

ETA: I used to pine after a starter motor. Now I am happy to keep my back strong by hand cranking the old beast.

Edited October 9, 2011 by sebrof

[sinkingbarge]

thanks very much for all this information. flipping the little levers on teh top from the upright position to the lhs horiziontal position (buy lhs i mean the side the injectors are fed from ) makes practically no noticeable difference, although the first few times i tried to crank it it did. hope i havenet messed it up cranking it over so many times.

 

is there a way to prime the piston rings with oil ? is this where the poor compression is coming from ?

 

is there a dipstick on this jp3 i couldnt find one.

 

also what oil should i use ?

 

would the diesel need renewing ?

 

is there a way to improve the compression beyond turning the red wheels clockwise ?

 

Also what is the creaking sound from the injectors that i should hear ? not to sure what im listening out for can anyone describe this creak

 

many thanks again.

 

 

also can anyone point me in the direction of a diagram or a description of how the compression levers work and how the red wheels work.

 

 

 

Dave

[by'eck]

The red (usually black) compression change over valves are either screwed fully in (high/starting comp) or fully out in which position a secondary combustion chamber is brought into play lowering the compression ratio for normal/hard running. In between they will leak compression so you need to be quick changing them over whilst engine running.

 

General consensus of opinion is leave them in high comp position for anything other than fast river running.

 

Morris Golden Film SAE20 matches original spec if you want to hand crank it otherwise SAE30 in the summer.

 

There should be a crankcase oil filler which will give access to measure oil level. This JP3 has an added dipstick.

 

[mykaskin]

First off it sounds as though you aren't getting any compression if putting the de-compression levers on the top over isn't changing anything. These can be adjusted, and I've found some engines where when they are horizontal are still holding the valves open. The compression change over valves can sometimes not seat correctly and blow thus also reducing compression. Try the following:

 

Take the rocker cover off one cyclinder (nearest to where you are cranking). This will ensure that the valves aren't lifted, while there ensure there is enough oil to come to the edge of the hollow tube stud.

 

Decompress the other cyclinders, and turn until compression is reached on your cyclinder. Now slowly push it over compression, a good engine will need quite a good push and go over very slowly. You should not be able to hear rushing air, if you can try and locate it, the most likely places are the values (air inlet, or exhaust), and the compression change over value (which has a small hole which vents the cyclinder while between starting and running.

 

If the valves aren't seating correctly then someone on here will be able to assist - it's a little beyond my skill at the moment. You could try overfilling the rocker top so that oil runs down the valve stem.

 

If the change-over is leaking, then try with a rubber mallet hitting the wheel while with the other hand turning it closed (to the start possition), I find mine moves a good few degrees further, and this ensures a good seat. In case there is a little bit of muck on the seat then turn the engine while tightening may help.

 

Once you have a good compression, refit the rocker cover and adjust the nut on the top until the height of the lever opens the exhaust valve when upright, and doesn't when down (they operate the same amount no matter which way they are pointing).

 

Repeat another two times on the other cyclinders.

 

Next, fuel, you've already checked that you are getting fuel to the injectors, but if you don't know what the creak sounds like then I'm guessing your not getting any fuel through them or otherwise you'd be going "oh yes, creak". You can clearly hear one creak from my JP2 here, the second injector is disconnected:

 

(by the way, the second cyclinder in this video was disabled, so it's starting on just that one cyclinder - was then using the compression to pop the other loose for removal).

 

You can also feel it. You need to purge the fuel lines of ALL air, as even a little bit will not pass through the injectors when hand cranking - I know as I've forgotten the turn on the fuel sometimes and had to blead from scratch (about 1/4 hour when the engine is warm!). If in doubt about this, then there are three (I assume as I have a JP2) bolts on the top of the fuel injector pump, let the diesel run cleanly without froth for all of these, then loosen the compression nuts on the injectors and turn the engine until there is no froth, and then tighten them up well. Hopefully this should get you your creaks.

 

I find that setting full throttle will pull the fuel rack over enough so that the starting/overload pawl can allow the overfuel needed for starting. You shouldn't need to jam open the fuel rack as once it's started you'll be bypassing the overspeed control and you could end up running it too fast. If you do (like on my second video below) ensure you remove it quickly.

 

Now, starting technique. I find you have to be in place to add maximum turn when compression hits, so find the compression point of the cyclinder you are going to start it on and turn the starting handle so that you can do the most pulling. I find it's safer to have maximum pull over compression rather than maximum push and find yourself flying across the engine room when it does fire! I've found that some three pot engines need more than one decompression lever dropping, so you are pulling across two or three compression points, I think with the JP try and get it going on one, at least so that it's helping you pull over another one.

 

If you are doing this alone, then use my string method of pulling over the lever - note it's not very accurate and may drop the lever during a compression cycle but far better than taking a hand off the handle. Once firing at a good rate on one cyclinder, quickly at the others.

 

Ensure your thumbs aren't over the handle in case it kicks back (you can see me adjust mine just before I turn it in the video above).

 

If everything goes well, it should fire up and go:

 

 

I'm based in Manchester now, but will be heading back to London in the next few weeks if you want me to cast my non-trained eye over it.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

Edited October 10, 2011 by mykaskin

[David Mack]

The red (usually black) compression change over valves are either screwed fully in (high/starting comp) or fully out in which position a secondary combustion chamber is brought into play lowering the compression ratio for normal/hard running. In between they will leak compression so you need to be quick changing them over whilst engine running.

 

General consensus of opinion is leave them in high comp position for anything other than fast river running.

 

Morris Golden Film SAE20 matches original spec if you want to hand crank it otherwise SAE30 in the summer.

 

There should be a crankcase oil filler which will give access to measure oil level. This JP3 has an added dipstick.

 

 

The JP3 pictured has the crankcase decompressors as fitted to earlier models.

 

There is a cranked handle, out of shot to the right, which has to be lifted, allowing the bar to which the rope is attached to rotate. The three knobs can then be pushed in - although you may need to turn the engine over to get all to go in. On winding up the engine you (or your assistant) drop the bar, but keep winding, and if you're lucky, it should start on all cylinders.

 

David

Edited October 10, 2011 by David Mack

[by'eck]

The JP3 pictured has the crankcase decompressors as fitted to earlier models.

 

There is a cranked handle, out of shot to the right, which has to be lifted, allowing the bar to which the rope is attached to rotate. The three knobs can then be pushed in - although you may need to turn the engine over to get all to go in. On winding up the engine you (or your assistant) drop the bar, but keep winding, and if you're lucky, it should start on all cylinders.

 

David

 

As I posted on a much earlier thread, both types of decompresser (rocker cover & crankcase) were used on JP2's & 3's from early 1930's to late 50's. There seems to be no pattern as to which. The smaller chunkier 23" flywheel was a later edition though.

[sinkingbarge]

Hi All,

 

thanks again for all the good advice. i have got the engine to the following stage, after ive been turning it over by hand.

 

- creaking from all 3 injectors

- on turn over i get atomised puffy exhaust coming out the exhaust although no firing.

- replaced all diesel in filters and pump so running really clean new diesel.

- only getting compression on front and rear cylinder ( getting a hard to turn situation when comp levers are down on 1 and 3) but not getting a differnece on cylinder 2.

- cant find the muscle to wangle the bloody thing over by hand when the lever gets dropped by gf. bit embarrassing and i havent got thin arms. prev owner says he couldnt hand start..

- compression really started to improve when the injectors started creaking so i think dripping diesel into the piston rings has helped.

- ive attenmpted dripping a load of morris 30 down the valves of no.2 when open to try and help compression but still no compression. btw the piston heads differnet to the other 2 so i think its cracked previously and been replaced. i am hoping when the other 2 fire up a bit of a shake around should get it to work. im thinking maybe the piston ring is not loose in teh piston after 5 years of not moving and so its stuck in a compression releasing position.

 

I?m really confident this is going to fire over tommorow. if i cant wangle it over by hand im going to go for linking up the starter motor.

 

Questions i really have then are:

 

- any further advice on cylinder no 2 .

- does this sound like its going to go.

- anything i can do beyond 6 months in the gym to hand crank this past a compression stroke. thing im using is a lever called a 'king dick' . gf thinks this is hillarious. Do i need a bigger one ! for more leverage that is ..

 

thanks

 

dave

[sinkingbarge]

oh and the other question was is it okay to run a lister on 2 out of 3 cylinders ? will it do damage to run this for a 100 miles?

 

thanks again

 

dave

[Davidss]

- Anything I can do beyond 6 months in the gym to hand crank this past a compression stroke. Thing I'm using is a lever called a 'king dick'.

dave

I associate that name with adjustable spanners and similar, so your statement suggests you are not using a cranked starting handle. If you are not using a cranked starting handle then I think you stand no chance of starting the engine.

You need to put energy into the flywheel by getting it turning continuously, starting at a slow speed and getting faster and faster until you feel your arm is about to unscrew at the shoulder.

Really, I mean it, the more energy (speed) you can get into the flywheel the better. When hand starting you cannot have too much flywheel speed.

Keep putting the same effort into the handle when the GF drops a single compression leaver.

Only after it has fired on one cylinder should she drop the decompression leaver on cylinder 3.

All the time keep turning the handle until the engine pushes the engagement key free (because the engine crankshaft is turning faster than you can move the handle).

 

It will be easier the next time.

 

HTH

[sinkingbarge]

all,

 

thanks a lot for all the help;.

 

progress since last update.

 

- fitted starter motor to wooden beam, but put a supporting beam next to it vertically from beam to roof and used some thread bar to get it adjusted really perfectly to mesh with the fly wheel and it fits a treat and gets engine rolling over.

 

- even when spinning really really quickly its not firing on diesel to get started. It does start with easy start sprayed as a mist near the intake (not much just a fine mist) and it then runs on diesel and runs on 2-3 cylinders. albeit with a misfire on one cylinder.

 

- when it initially started. there was no exhaust. there was so much smoke in the engine room i couldnt see to turn the bloody thing off. later when i fitted the exhaust so much soot went out, may neighbour ron had to stop painting their boats.

 

- the compression less cylinder 2 now has compression after it ran for 20 mins. when it was running it suddenly improved after 10 mins. i think this may have been the point compression returned to the cyl 2 but not certain. perhaps the rings were locked in a fixed position and got loose or perhaps a bit of rust on a valve edge wore off. not sure.

 

- despite an improvement over 20 mins the smoke level coming out the exhaust is high. could this be water in the oil ? or could this be really worn rings ? or is this just the way it is on an old jp3 ?

 

- when i opened the oil pressure nut to the oil pressure guage - water came out. not oil but cold thin water i believe. now after running for 10 min this emulsified grey stuff is coming out if i open the nut so i suspect after several years theres a lot of water in it. An old diesel engine bloke told me not to worry for a 20 minute test, but we agreed before doing any more im doing an oil drain and change.

 

Now compressions returned a bit to the engine, i am going to hope that the misfire on one of the cylinders is possibly due to an injector being stuffed and nothing more serious than that.

 

 

 

 

Questions i wondered if you could help with are:

 

- how much oil needs to be put in the jp3 . theres no diptick. what oil morris 30?

 

- how do you get the oil out ? do i need to use a pump ? could find a drain off and the sumps really inaccessable.

 

- how do you check condition of the injectors.

 

- If the injectors are stuffed then how do you fix them?

 

- Any advice on the above ?

 

- oh and sorry to ask same question again but how much harm will it do to run the engine with a misfire on 2.

 

- also how much work is it to pull the heads off and grind the valves. i have done it a lot on petrol engines. this looks simple. how many hours do you think to do all 3, inc setting the rocker valve clearances ?

 

 

 

thanks again for all the excellent advice.

 

Dave

[sebrof]

Questions i wondered if you could help with are:

 

- how much oil needs to be put in the jp3 . theres no diptick. what oil morris 30?

 

Between 15 and 20 litres, I think. Yes, Morris Golden Film 30.

 

 

- how do you get the oil out ? do i need to use a pump ? could find a drain off and the sumps really inaccessable.

 

Buy a cheap pump and use the hole next to the dipstick. At the same time suck the oil out of the injector pump and replace. It will have become diluted with diesel.

 

- how do you check condition of the injectors.

 

- If the injectors are stuffed then how do you fix them?

 

Don't know how to check, other than ensuring they are squirting diesel (at high pressure. Be careful). You can get them serviced. Maybe £30 each. Servicing the injector pump is worthwhile but not cheap.

 

- oh and sorry to ask same question again but how much harm will it do to run the engine with a misfire on 2.

 

Probably not too bad if you run it gently.

 

- also how much work is it to pull the heads off and grind the valves. i have done it a lot on petrol engines. this looks simple. how many hours do you think to do all 3, inc setting the rocker valve clearances ?

 

It's quite a job. And you will need a massive torque wrench. Borrow or download a manual before you do it as you need to be careful not to wreck the manifolds. Don't forget to check big-end bearings. The rocker valves are the easy bit.

 

Line up spare parts first. Marine Engine Services in Uxbridge are good for gaskets and other things, and they post quickly. Check they have piston rings as that could be an issue.

Edited October 18, 2011 by sebrof