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"Northwich Trader"

alan_fincher

By alan_fincher
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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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I have always thought it odd that both Barry Hawkins and R W Davis chose to build boats called "Northwich Trader".

 

I have always found it confusing.

 

Does anybody know the reasons behind this, or, indeed which of them used it first ?

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Laurence Hogg Veteran

Laurence Hogg

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R W Davis was the first to use the name. I assisted Phil with drawings when the first one was being drawn up. I wanted him to call them Severn Traders but you know boatbuilders and the keyname "Northwich" was stuck with. Its a distinctive combination of several boat designs reinvented to suit todays market. Barry Hawkins has imitated the RWD design a recent one I have seen is nowhere as good or near the quality of the RWD build and has been losing its fake rivets amongst other problems.

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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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Its a distinctive combination of several boat designs reinvented to suit todays market.

Thanks Laurence.

 

Your description of the Phil Trotter "Trader" is not exactly the same as his, in my view....

 

All external lines to Yarwoods of Northwich 1930's design. Entrance and exit swims built to exact dimensions giving positive handling and absence of excess wash.

 

Well, not to me anyway.... The above wording to me implies following a single original design, not using a "melange" of several!

 

Out of interest, which plans do you feel have helped make up the mix ?

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Laurence Hogg Veteran

Laurence Hogg

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Thanks Laurence.

 

Your description of the Phil Trotter "Trader" is not exactly the same as his, in my view....

 

 

 

Well, not to me anyway.... The above wording to me implies following a single original design, not using a "melange" of several!

 

Out of interest, which plans do you feel have helped make up the mix ?

 

I supplied him the small and large Northwich motor plans, a LMS Yarwoods boat and a Yarwoods built FMC motor. I remember long discussions about swims etc but that is years ago now. We supplied RWD with chandlery through Boatmans Cabin on a regular basis so were in there often. The first boat built I watched with great interest as it developed. Indeed I think that boat belongs now to one of the members of this forum.

 

His description "All external lines to Yarwoods of Northwich 1930's design. Entrance and exit swims built to exact dimensions giving positive handling and absence of excess wash" seems ok to me as all the plans were 1930's with the exception of the LMS one.

 

There is no historic boat design which matches the Northwich Trader exactly, however Phil has done exactly what Yarwoods did when they made their "one off" boats like "Beatty" and "Trent 5", those two boats were built using influence from existing other designs.

Edited by Laurence Hogg
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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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His description "All external lines to Yarwoods of Northwich 1930's design. Entrance and exit swims built to exact dimensions giving positive handling and absence of excess wash" seems ok to me as all the plans were 1930's with the exception of the LMS one.

Hmmmm.....

 

I challenge you to produce a 1930s Yarwood plan that features swims that are a match for those I have seen on Northwich Traders!

 

They may indeed be "built to exact dimensions", (so could a something with Springer-like short swims, of course!), but every real Northwich boat I have ever seen out of water, (or out of water pictures of,) has a very much more complex shape than that apparently adopted by Phil Trotter for his Traders.

 

(Laurence will now produce plans of a 1930s Yarwoods motor with fairly unshaped swims! :lol:,,,,,,,,,,)

 

Guess I can put the Popcorn away mad.gif

Oh at least give the thread a chance! :lol:

 

Actually I was not starting it to be scurrilous! I am genuinely curious with all the possible names you could come up with, why two builders chose to use the same.

Edited by alan_fincher
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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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Can anyone post images of original Northwich traders so that we can form an independent opinion?

 

I have a few of Beatty (very nice indeed) but failed to find anything in relation to Trent 5.

 

How many of these boats were actually built?

I believe Grahams's RWD boat Alnwick was the prototype Northwich Trader from that firm.

 

The name "Northwich Trader" I don't think has any origins in the working boat world before that, but I'm happy to be corrected if wrong.

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

Trent 5 on National Historic Ships Register

 

and

 

Beatty on National Historic Ships Register

Edited by alan_fincher
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Laurence Hogg Veteran

Laurence Hogg

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Hmmmm.....

 

I challenge you to produce a 1930s Yarwood plan that features swims that are a match for those I have seen on Northwich Traders!

 

They may indeed be "built to exact dimensions", (so could a something with Springer-like short swims, of course!), but every real Northwich boat I have ever seen out of water, (or out of water pictures of,) has a very much more complex shape than that apparently adopted by Phil Trotter for his Traders.

 

(Laurence will now produce plans of a 1930s Yarwoods motor with fairly unshaped swims! :lol:,,,,,,,,,,)

 

 

Oh at least give the tread a chance! :lol:

 

Actually I was not starting it to be scurrilous! I am genuinely curious with all the possible names you could come up with, why two builders chose to use the same.

 

Alan,

I supplied RWD the plans, what they interprete is up to them, I have not said they incorporated exact lines or anything similar. You know I cannot supply a drawing as you describe so why waste the effort of asking? You will probably find the lower length of one of the swims is the measurement used. In defence of Phil I will say it is good that they take the effort to do some research and continue to do so, recently I have supplied more drawings to them for another boat type.

 

Can anyone post images of original Northwich traders so that we can form an independent opinion?

 

I have a few of Beatty (very nice indeed) but failed to find anything in relation to Trent 5.

 

How many of these boats were actually built?

 

Only two, "Beatty" for Samuel Barlows Coal Co and "Trent 5" for the Staffs chemical company. Beatty is more or less a small Northwich, "Trent 5" has much of Cowburn & Cowper design about her but was a tanker.

 

"Alnwick" was the boat I watched being built.

Edited by Laurence Hogg
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The Anonymous Bard Community Regular

The Anonymous Bard

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Thanks Alan & Laurence.

 

The first thing I noticed on Trent 5's panelling was the additional first small panel before the main panel working from the stern.

 

I remember when Andy Watson kindly invited me to view Oslo that the back cabin was longer than the those that I had been familiar with up until that point.

 

Is that an original detail that RWD had carried through to their designs and if so why would the working boatmen of that day had the additional luxury of this extra space?

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Timleech Veteran II

Timleech

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Thanks Alan & Laurence.

 

The first thing I noticed on Trent 5's panelling was the additional first small panel before the main panel working from the stern.

 

I remember when Andy Watson kindly invited me to view Oslo that the back cabin was longer than the those that I had been familiar with up until that point.

 

Is that an original detail that RWD had carried through to their designs and if so why would the working boatmen of that day had the additional luxury of this extra space?

 

Generally horse boat/butty cabins were longer than motor boat cabins, and they often did have an extra panel at the back.

Modern imitations or whatever you want to call them will often have a cabin which is a bit longer than a normal working motor boat cabin, there might be space constraints but they're a bit different from those on a cargo carrying boat.

I've no idea about Trent5, whether the cabin is longer than original or whether it's just the way it's decorated (the current cabin side appears to be plain steel).

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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It's not unusual to find modern day "replicas" put longer back cabins on a motor than most working (motor) boats actually had.

 

Sickle has, as far as I can tell, been reconstructed more or less to the original Yarwoods build, but as a result has a cabin of just about 8 feet only. This results in a bed-hole that really is no more than 3 feet wide, which in a house would be considered a single, not a double. It's exceedingly cosy for two! :wub:

 

Just an extra foot can leave the rest of back cabin proportions unaltered, but give you a "generous" bed four foot wide instead of three.

 

I was chatting to the owner of another tug format ex-GUCCCo boat the other day. Because his is a conversion from a butty, he was not hung up on absolute original dimensions, and both cabin and engine room have been "stretched" a bit. You can't really notice this, by casual observation, but it is not strictly authentic.

 

I suspect "Trent 5" doesn't have a longer cabin than usual, and what you are looking at is just a variant in how it has been painted externally. But I don't claim to know for certain.

 

Buttys generally have more space because.....

 

1) The floor is not raised a long way by the prop shaft needing to pass under

2) There are no gunwales, usually, the cabin at its base is as wide as the hull

3) they are often 6" or a foot longer anyway, because there is no space taken up by the engine room.

 

Doesn't sound a lot, but buttys just "feel" a lot bigger. Generally with a pair the butty was the main living space, where parents would have slept. motors were more traditionally either used by children, or single adult members of the crew, I believe.

Edited by alan_fincher
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Laurence Hogg Veteran

Laurence Hogg

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I havent drawings to Trent 5 at hand but we were moored next to it a Droitwich and I didnt notice the cabin was longer than ours.

However you must realize that the castle panel on a motor cabin side is a feature of boats built in the Potteries area and more north. Meakins & Seddons boats both built by the Anderton dock had Castle panels on the motors for instance and further north the LNER motors had the extra panel with a castle forward of the engine room. Also the headroom was minimal and tumblehome increased to assist passage of Harecastle tunnel. Whilst the cabins on some boats look longer they are actually shallower and have much greater tumblehome so fooling the eye.

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Laurence Hogg Veteran

Laurence Hogg

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I havent drawings to Trent 5 at hand but we were moored next to it a Droitwich and I didnt notice the cabin was longer than ours.

However you must realize that the castle panel on a motor cabin side is a feature of boats built in the Potteries area and more north. Meakins & Seddons boats both built by the Anderton dock had Castle panels on the motors for instance and further north the LNER motors had the extra panel with a castle forward of the engine room. Also the headroom was minimal and tumblehome increased to assist passage of Harecastle tunnel. Whilst the cabins on some boats look longer they are actually shallower and have much greater tumblehome so fooling the eye.

 

To illustrate how low a cabin was and the tumblehome:

EILEENMWSCCCMOTOR1.jpg

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Laurence Hogg Veteran

Laurence Hogg

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That's a nice looking motor, if only there were more preserved from the Mersey weaver fleet!

 

Be nice to see a modern builder replicate the curved gunnel line of the boat, many of these features are now consigned to history.

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  • 1 year later...
alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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XRD also do a "Northwich Trader"

 

 

http://www.mysgw.co....79&StyleID=2791

 

(Old thread I know btw).

I hope they are not claiming that one in any way replicates the lines of a 1930s Yarwood's boat!

 

I think I probably have a longer rear swim on my Evans & Son "Clonecraft". :lol:

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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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Why are nearly half the posts in this thread from you then?

 

Richard

Different hobby horse! :lol:

 

And a point of order ......

 

"About a third" is in my view quite a bit less than "nearly half" :rolleyes:

Edited by alan_fincher
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