Can anyone identify this ice breaker?

[carlt]

Been on the hard at Wayford Bridge for years, apparently.

[Guest]

Dunno, but they are pushing their luck with the trailer.

 

Nice looking boat.

[Laurence Hogg]

That is a Harris of Netherton built tug. It is the same as the "Caggy" and other similar boats. I think I saw this at Stenson many years ago. Many of these were named after WW2 fighters, ie Spitfire, Hurricane, Typhoon etc. Hull condition looks good.

[Paul H]

Oxford No 1 formerly moored at Braunston

...or Oxford no 2 - there's some controversy!

Paul

 

Otherwise known as Redcap

Paul

[Laurence Hogg]

Here is a picture of Oxford number 1. Certain features match the modern picture, note edge of roof. High probability IMHO that it is the same boat.

 

[magpie patrick]

Carl, I can't help with the identification, but do you mean Wayford on the Broads?

 

While I would like to say I am surprised, I'm not, we saw two narrowboats and a widebeam equivalent in Newport IOW two years ago

[carlt]

Carl, I can't help with the identification, but do you mean Wayford on the Broads?

 

Yes, Wayford Bridge, near Stalham.

 

I'm surprised I didn't recognise it as Oxford No.1 as I used to walk past it, most days, when it was at Braunston.

 

Carl, I can't help with the identification, but do you mean Wayford on the Broads?

 

While I would like to say I am surprised, I'm not,

One of the boatyard workers lives on a very tidy little Springer, there.

[Guest]

The boat in the original pic. Carl posted has bollards on the counter, the boat in the archive pic. has t studs - would it be common for these to change during a boats life??

 

 

ETA - tiller is a very different design too..

 

 

 

..

Edited July 28, 2011 by MJG

[Paul H]

The boat in the original pic. Carl posted has bollards on the counter, the boat in the archive pic. has t studs - would it be common for these to change during a boats life??

 

 

ETA - tiller is a very different design too..

 

This is all a bit confusing I'm afraid.

 

Harris Brothers built 2 icebreaker tugs for the Oxford Canal Company in the 1940s both financed by the Government . Subsequently they both ended up in the ownership of British Waterways.

 

One of them (the one now on the Broads) was sold off in the early/mid 1960s to Colonel Ritchie who renamed it Redcap and used it as a trip boat at Stoke Bruerne. The other passed to Alfred Matty and Son of Coseley and was sold out of service in the 1990s. This latter boat has now been lovingly restored and is owned by Pete Downer of Banbury.

 

Although Redcap was always said to be No 1, it is now suspected it may actually be No 2. The confusion having arisen because Mattys renamed their boat "Oxford 2" because it was No 2 in their tug fleet.

 

The boats have subtle differences - Pete Downer's one has a much longer counter deck and T-studs whereas Redcap has bollards. So I think Laurence's fantastic archive pic is the other Oxford which is now at Banbury!

 

Pete Downer has done a lot of research into the histories and even he is not 100% sure!

 

Over to Mr Harrison...

 

Paul

[the grinch]

can't add anything about the boats, but i see Laurie hasn't tidied up the yard, still full of tatty old hulks LOL

for those that don't know Wayford Marina is owned by Laurie Ashton who also owns the Honing to Swaffield sections of the North Walsham & Dilham Canal, he has almost rebuilt Bacton Wood Lock and East Anglian Waterways Assoc has a heritage lottery application in for the restoration onf Honing Lock

[carlt]

can't add anything about the boats, but i see Laurie hasn't tidied up the yard, still full of tatty old hulks LOL

 

There are many beautiful wooden boats mixed in with the plastic Broads bathtubs, though.

 

I'm not sure but I don't think Laurie Ashton has any connection with the yard anymore.

 

Thankfully John, the new owner, is keeping it as a working yard and won't be sanitising it and turning it into another bland, sterile, floating holiday park.

[alan_fincher]

 

As someone who once owned a BCN boat that had been shortened and motorised by Harris Brothers, I find the pictures of something they built from scratch quite interesting.

 

This boat actually has quite nice lines to it, in my view, with quite a lot of detail going into the boat forward of the rear swim.

 

But it shares with my old boat, (although not quite as badly!), a very much less sophisticated rear swim, with that sudden angular fold in from the sides, with a hard corner. This is in stark contrast to the nicely rounded chines, (which no doubt would make it roll a treat!).

 

Interesting boat, although I expect handling may be "interesting".

 

Harris Brothers, we are told, were still working into the 1960s, and everything was still done riveted. Apparently they had no capability to weld anything, right up until the end.

[Laurence Hogg]

Here are a few more images to help you decide. When this boat arrived at Matty;s it was named "Oxford" there was no munber after the name.

The first picture is 1982

 

 

These pictures in 1978:

 

[carlt]

 

 

But it shares with my old boat, (although not quite as badly!), a very much less sophisticated rear swim, with that sudden angular fold in from the sides, with a hard corner. This is in stark contrast to the nicely rounded chines, (which no doubt would make it roll a treat!).

 

I did actually wonder if it was a horse drawn ice breaker that had been motorised, with the addition of a counter, because of the contrast between the stern and the rest of the boat.

[Guest]

I think that is a lovely boat, especially in the second pic down. The lines of the boat are spot on.

[carlt]

I think that is a lovely boat, especially in the second pic down. The lines of the boat are spot on.

My photos don't actually do the curviness of the bow justice. It makes a Josher bow look flat.

[Laurence Hogg]

Dont forget too that Matty's aquired "Atlantic" into their fleet which is an identical boat hull from Harris Bros.

 

Seen here in 1971 in the much disputed mudnight blue and gold midland colours.

 

[pete harrison]

This is all a bit confusing I'm afraid.

 

Although Redcap was always said to be No 1, it is now suspected it may actually be No 2. The confusion having arisen because Mattys renamed their boat "Oxford 2" because it was No 2 in their tug fleet.

 

The boats have subtle differences

 

Pete Downer has done a lot of research into the histories and even he is not 100% sure!

 

Over to Mr Harrison...

 

Paul

 

As Paul says there are subtle differences that make identifying OXFORD No. 1 and OXFORD No. 2 really easy, and I am really surprised nobody has ever spotted them (except me it seems - but I do have other period photographs).

 

Although these boats were built by the same builder the biggest difference by far is that OXFORD No. 1 has no rubbing guard around the top edge of the hull (directly below the wooden gunwale) whereas OXFORD No. 2 does. As rivets can be seen on both boats I believe this to be an original feature of both boats, and is clearly shown in the photographs above. I have an excellent photograph of OXFORD No. 2 at Hillmorton in April 1962 complete with the rubbing guard - which makes REDCAP's true identity OXFORD No. 2. It is no co-incidence that Pete Downer's tug has no rubbing guard and is therefore OXFORD No. 1.

 

Simples !!!

 

edited for spelling

Edited July 28, 2011 by pete harrison

[Derek R.]

 

 

 

That is just sublime! The swim begins less so, but it's a difficult shape to achieve with double curvature, and I suspect Harris's weren't geared for such complexities though they got the fore end done. Was the swim and motor counter a later addition? ATLANTIC's fore end doesn't seem so refined in comparison.

 

Still a lovely little boat. Can Pete tell us when built and the dimensions, and if that cabin might be original.

 

Is there much of a gunnel Carl?

[Paul H]

That is just sublime! The swim begins less so, but it's a difficult shape to achieve with double curvature, and I suspect Harris's weren't geared for such complexities though they got the fore end done. Was the swim and motor counter a later addition? ATLANTIC's fore end doesn't seem so refined in comparison.

 

Still a lovely little boat. Can Pete tell us when built and the dimensions, and if that cabin might be original.

 

Is there much of a gunnel Carl?

 

From Jim Shead's site:

 

REDCAP Built by CANAL ICE BREAKER in 1943 - Length 12.19 metres (40 feet ) - Beam 1.9 metres (6 feet 3 inches ) Steel hull,colour BLACK superstructure colour GREY a Diesel Inboard engine with a power of 12. Registered with Broads Authority number 117H as a Private Motor. Last registration recorded on 1-Jun-2011.

 

There are gunnels but they're fairly narrow. The cabin won't be an original - it was a trip boat at one time although I suppose some of the frames might just about be. Not sure about 6ft 3 ins beam - generally these boats are a about 6ft 6 wide which does compromise the accommodation - no cross beds.

 

Yes its interesting thtat Harris's seem to have made such a good job of the bow then why such a pigs ear of the stern. I know Pete Downer's Oxford No 1 was hopeless in reverse and he was proposing pushing the propeller back a bit top get more flow to it. Maybe Oxford No 2 was adapted from an old horsedrawn boat. This is certainly the case with Francis Stapleton's icebreaker tug at the Black Country Museum now called Coventry but formerly Gilwern.

 

Derek - thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's iceboat.

 

Paul

Edited July 29, 2011 by Paul H

[Derek R.]

"Derek - thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's iceboat."

 

Yes yes - point taken! 'Tis most desirable though . . .

 

Eyes bigger than belly . .

[carlt]

Is there much of a gunnel Carl?

I didn't get a good look as I was taking photos of this boat whilst mine was being lifted out so I was somewhat distracted.

 

I'll take some less hurried shots tomorrow, if you like.

[Derek R.]

Thanks Carl, the more the merrier but only if you're not otherwise occupied. I'm not in the running for another in any case.

 

There's a shot in Coventry Canal Society's booklet 'Coventry's Waterways' first published 1972 showing an Ice breaker that is reckoned to be TYCHO, credited to the Coventry Evening Telegraph. The date is wrong, but on the right is what is firmly believed to be OXFORD No.2, with what looks like some curved piece of riveted something aligned with the cabin. See if I can dig it out.

 

[Laurence Hogg]

"Typhoon" also had a curved cabin top but not that curved. I understand that is No2.

 

I would also agree that the icebreaker is "Tycho", here is a picture of it on the BCN new main line when the gas pipes went in.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Laurence Hogg

[pete harrison]

but on the right is what is firmly believed to be OXFORD No.2, with what looks like some curved piece of riveted something aligned with the cabin. See if I can dig it out.

 

 

That is OXFORD No. 2 on the right, and the "curved piece of riveted something aligned with the cabin" is the front engine room bulkhead.