NOT FOR MEN KEEP PLEASE OUT!

[Doug Scullery]

You blame nurture for your failings

 

I said that I believe nurture is the source of the social and phychological differences we observe between men and women. I fail to see what this has to do with what you term "my failings" (maybe this is one of my failings?).

 

yet you acknowledge that Society does not teach us to think in the paranoid manner that you have demonstrated.

 

Do I?

 

It follows that, as Society hasn't nurtured you

 

I very much said that society has nurtured me, and you, and everybody else

 

I think, considering you steered the thread in this direction, it is only reasonable to discuss your parenting, and how it has led you to this point.

 

At no point did I lead this discussion in the direction of my, or anybody elses, parents.

[carlt]

(maybe this is one of my failings?).

Now we're getting somewhere. I agree with you.

 

 

I very much said that society has nurtured me, and you, and everybody else

 

 

 

At no point did I lead this discussion in the direction of my, or anybody elses, parents.

How come Society has 'nurtured' you to have such ultrasensitivity to such matters, whereas everybody else seems capable of distinguishing between harmless humour and harmful sexism?

 

I don't recall you leaping to my defence when I objected to people posting racist, sexist and downright bigoted jokes in the Friday Joke Thread.

 

Did you find them acceptable or did you just see this harmless bit of banter a soft target for a bit of trolling?

 

There is plenty wrong with society that you can vent your outrage on so try picking your targets more carefully.

[Doug Scullery]

I don't recall you leaping to my defence when I objected to people posting racist, sexist and downright bigoted jokes in the Friday Joke Thread.

 

I never read that thread, but had I read that and felt I could add to your arguments, or that you were being unfairly attacked, I absolutely would have leapt to your defence.

 

As it happens I have read plenty of, er, heated discussions on this forum and opted to stay an observer because I felt that you and others were making the points that I would have made in a clearer way than I could have myself.

 

How come Society has 'nurtured' you to have such ultrasensitivity to such matters, whereas everybody else seems capable of distinguishing between harmless humour and harmful sexism?

 

Sexism is something I have spent quite alot of time reading about, discussing and thinking about. What I have learned has led me to the conclusion that ther is no such thing as harmless sexism, just less harmful sexism.

 

did you just see this harmless bit of banter a soft target for a bit of trolling?

 

As I said before to Magpie Patrick, not trolling, just voicing my opinion in an honest way. Just because my opinion differs to yours does not make me a troll.

 

There is plenty wrong with society that you can vent your outrage on so try picking your targets more carefully.

 

Yes there is plenty wrong with society. However I will continue to "pick my targets" based on what I believe, as you will based on your own beliefs.

[LoneWolf]

have a greenie martin

 

 

I'm getting deja vu here. Wasn't it just last month that we had a thread discussing casual/unintentional sexism where the same thing happened. ie 'the boys' pile in and get all personal then step back all wide eyed claiming that it's just a discussion/joke.

 

 

Carl, i've never seen you be so obnoxious before, are you having a bad day?

 

 

Doug, I agree with your nature/nurture comments but you're wasting your time trying to explain here - the boys dont really care about it, they just like arguing.

 

This place is soooo much duller without ymu

[carlt]

 

Carl, i've never seen you be so obnoxious before, are you having a bad day?

 

I don't think I've been obnoxious.

 

If someone wants to explore how harmless chat, amongst friends, can be deemed a threat to society, then surely they must expect strong, even personal debate.

 

I've had a great day, by the way, and I'm in an excellent mood.

 

I think if Doug had picked a more appropriate target, than JennyM's, good humoured thread, then we would have been fighting on the same side...just like when Ymu chose to attack, imo, one of the least sexist men on this forum.

 

There are plenty of obnoxious sexist practices out there to have a go at.

 

Pick something as innocuous as this thread, started by a woman, in good humour, then you soon find yourself fighting those who would normally be on your side.

 

Edited to add: and it is worth bearing in mind that Ymu was arguing that women are entitled to be sexist towards men, to redress the balance, so she would have been defending this thread far more vociferously than I have been.

Edited July 15, 2011 by carlt

[LoneWolf]

..

If someone wants to explore how harmless chat, amongst friends, can be deemed a threat to society, then surely they must expect strong, even personal debate.

...

 

You either have a bad memory or are being disingenuous, at no time was there a discussion of this

 

fwiw, i agree that his initial post was an overreaction given the obvious non-seriousness of the thread title but your reaction to it is also an overreaction.

 

You also either know very little about the nature/nurture debate (indicating a lack of interest in it) or you do know something about it and were deliberately misunderstanding Doug's posts in order to have a fight.

 

 

 

...fighting on the same side...

 

...fighting those who would normally be on your side...

 

 

It's not about fighting remember, its about discussion

 

 

Edited to add: and it is worth bearing in mind that Ymu was arguing that women are entitled to be sexist towards men, to redress the balance, so she would have been defending this thread far more vociferously than I have been.

 

Again, is this a bad memory or more dis-ingenuity? Her point was that when men whine about the sexism they suffer - and there was some of that upthread as well wasn't there - it comes across as ridiculous to those of us who've been putting up with it (and other 'isms) in many areas for most of our lives

 

It's not really on to misrepresent other posters when they're not around to correct it.

 

I'm not sure she would be defending this thread, sadly we'll probably not find out

[sociable_hermit]

Her point was that when men whine about the sexism they suffer - and there was some of that upthread as well wasn't there - it comes across as ridiculous to those of us who've been putting up with it (and other 'isms) in many areas for most of our lives

Yes, I raised it. Interesting how a valid complaint from one gender is whining from another.

 

The whole point about those who've been putting up with discrimination for most of their lives is that they should really have a very good idea how it feels by now and not seek to perpetuate the abuse.

 

I'm all for equality provided it's true equality, with just as much leeway, fuzziness and playful blurring of the rules on either side. It's nowhere near like that yet, though. And I don't think the paranoid, humourless totalitarian approach, which refuses to recognise gender difference even when it blatantly occurs, really does anything to help. Individualism is far more important to me than stuffing people into a set of rigid standards that don't really work. But by the same token sometimes we are at liberty to conform to stereotypes, so banning those on principle also seems rather stupid. Nothing wrong with recognising a widely-exhibited trait. Belittling someone or discriminating against them based on it, though, is wrong. The two aren't the same thing, but this link is often assumed.

[carlt]

You either have a bad memory or are being disingenuous, at no time was there a discussion of this

 

fwiw, i agree that his initial post was an overreaction given the obvious non-seriousness of the thread title but your reaction to it is also an overreaction.

 

You also either know very little about the nature/nurture debate (indicating a lack of interest in it) or you do know something about it and were deliberately misunderstanding Doug's posts in order to have a fight.

 

 

 

 

It's not about fighting remember, its about discussion

 

 

 

 

Again, is this a bad memory or more dis-ingenuity? Her point was that when men whine about the sexism they suffer - and there was some of that upthread as well wasn't there - it comes across as ridiculous to those of us who've been putting up with it (and other 'isms) in many areas for most of our lives

 

It's not really on to misrepresent other posters when they're not around to correct it.

 

I'm not sure she would be defending this thread, sadly we'll probably not find out

Her point started off as you say but finished up as a screaming diatribe of against those who felt that she wasn't striving for equality but wanting revenge.

 

As I felt totally misrepresented, by her attack on me, I must agree with your comment about misrepresenting other posters. I think, though, you are misrepresenting mine, and Richard's attempts to be reasonable, when she was just hurling insults.

 

This was a good humoured thread started by a woman who wasn't being remotely offensive, towards men, and it was spoilt by someone determined to see prejudice, where there was none....

 

I know plenty about the nature/nurture debate but Doug was merely distorting it to ruin a good, entertaining debate so yes, I wound up the troll because it is possible to destroy all humour, with an attitude like his and I decided to give him some of his own medicine.

 

Forums can be ruined by killjoys picking up on every humorous bit of banter and turning it into some pseudo-idealistic rant so they have to expect to get a bit back.

[Chertsey]

I dunno, woman starts a thread, about 'women's issues', for women (whatever you think of the rights and wrongs of that), and how does it end up? With men rucking amongst themselves. Plus ca chamge...

[magpie patrick]

I take it this wouldn't be a good time to mention Caitlin Moran's new book

 

[Doug Scullery]

I know plenty about the nature/nurture debate

 

Well you must have done some reading up on it in the last 24 hours because yesterday you seemed to believe it had something to do with some pseudo-Freudian claptrap about parental failings.

 

Doug was merely distorting it

 

Right. Distorting it how, exactly?

[LoneWolf]

I take it this wouldn't be a good time to mention Caitlin Moran's new book

 

 

Why wouldn't it be?

 

From the extracts i've read and the things she's said on R4 it would seem to be one young ie modern woman's take on what feminism means to her. She comes across as intelligent and funny & can express her ideas clearly.

 

I would have thought it was a good time to mention it.

 

Have you read it? What's it like?

[magpie patrick]

Why wouldn't it be?

 

From the extracts i've read and the things she's said on R4 it would seem to be one young ie modern woman's take on what feminism means to her. She comes across as intelligent and funny & can express her ideas clearly.

 

I would have thought it was a good time to mention it.

 

Have you read it? What's it like?

 

The extracts I've read are superb, enough to tempt me every time I walk past Oldfield Park Books (our local bookshop), I just thought that, given one or two people were getting a bit heavy, it might be worth a mention, hence the wink smiley.

[Chertsey]

The extracts I've read are superb, enough to tempt me every time I walk past Oldfield Park Books (our local bookshop), I just thought that, given one or two people were getting a bit heavy, it might be worth a mention, hence the wink smiley.

Haven't ever read her columns, but ordered the book this afternoon.

[carlt]

Well you must have done some reading up on it in the last 24 hours because yesterday you seemed to believe it had something to do with some pseudo-Freudian claptrap about parental failings.

 

 

 

Right. Distorting it how, exactly?

Can't be arsed any more.

 

carry on trolling Doug.

 

Well done on ruining a harmless thread.

[Tiny]

In that case why have male and female loos separate? Surely that is the height of sexism.

I hate political correctness as well

Sue

 

Some years back while in a Belgium tourist spot (the Atomium) the wife and I both entered the his and her toilet doors - and met up the other side. I left quick - what some of the females were doing in the public part of the bit inside was terrifying given their shapes! Later I noticed the local men peed against the wall behind the toilets.

 

On the other hand in a certain English town one had to admire the persistance of one 80+ year old to deak the odd bit of flesh. He first had to walk a half mile to the council toilets then drill a hole though a double brick cavity wall so he, in the gents, could see into the ladies. It turned out all the local ladies were unbothered. (They worked nearby at Girflex threads which made condoms for the big companies.) However a visiting policeman noticed the hole with a view and they then caught the old boy in the act - staring at a lady policeman next door.

[Tiny]

But how you react to those factors definitely starts with your parents.

 

The way you are reacting to this light hearted, harmless thread suggests some failing, in that early influence.

 

When I was in my teens my dad let his hair down and though he never swore used to come out with comments like 'Its a poor arse that never rejoyces' If someone farted and sang the odd rude song in private. It tended to widen my horizons as did some of his books (which are tame by modern standards and had all the good bit abridged). Suddenly I knew a lot more than other kids - including quite broad minded where most just talked the talk - which I was not going to do. The wife and I often find people do a double take when I make a remark and she laughs as in - that's rude - when it isn't its just normal and thought about but not commented on by most people.

 

How children react to their parents and their surroundings certain does effect them and how some bits of their personallity develop. We knew one family very well. They had two children and the youngest - a nasty bit of work was always favoured (due to his parents upbringing etc.) The older one did everything to be loved but if the little one was in trouble he simply pointed the finger at his brother and he got the telling off. That kid sweated blood to impress his dad but no go (and dad still says 'If only he would' when he always has). Meanwhile the mother just screamed at both kids - but at the big one more as he was always in trouble thanks to brother who (for example) if he forgot his toys demanded his brothers and got the parents to order them handed over. The result was by ten the kid doted on dad and hated mum and still got told off none stop by his disappointed father who just wished he was like his brother. We worked out how the kid would develop and he did but, of course his father (mum left) could never understand why he was ...

Edited July 17, 2011 by Tiny

[JennyM]

When I was in my teens my dad let his hair down and though he never swore used to come out with comments like 'Its a poor arse that never rejoyces' If someone farted and sang the odd rude song in private. It tended to widen my horizons as did some of his books (which are tame by modern standards and had all the good bit abridged). Suddenly I knew a lot more than other kids - including quite broad minded where most just talked the talk - which I was not going to do. The wife and I often find people do a double take when I make a remark and she laughs as in - that's rude - when it isn't its just normal and thought about but not commented on by most people.

 

How children react to their parents and their surroundings certain does effect them and how some bits of their personallity develop. We knew one family very well. They had two children and the youngest - a nasty bit of work was always favoured (due to his parents upbringing etc.) The older one did everything to be loved but if the little one was in trouble he simply pointed the finger at his brother and he got the telling off. That kid sweated blood to impress his dad but no go (and dad still says 'If only he would' when he always has). Meanwhile the mother just screamed at both kids - but at the big one more as he was always in trouble thanks to brother who (for example) if he forgot his toys demanded his brothers and got the parents to order them handed over. The result was by ten the kid doted on dad and hated mum and still got told off none stop by his disappointed father who just wished he was like his brother. We worked out how the kid would develop and he did but, of course his father (mum left) could never understand why he was ...

 

Thanks Tiny for sharing the story about your Dad - of course us ladies must have very poor arses then ha ha

 

I firmly believe every child is born innocent, without any flaws at all. Each one a clean page. Then survival kicks in, we learn to dodge the hurts and practice the good bits that reward us. Kids going to good schools come away with sense of self respect and are confident, unfortunately kids who go to bad schools come away learning bad things that they probably wouldn't have learnt at home. It's not the kids fault - it's just that they have learnt what they think they need to survive. For some kids, life can be a horrid place and that paints their sour outlook.

 

Whenever I can I smile at people, most smile back and appreciate the contact, but sometimes some are not forthcoming with their smiles, when I meet these people I imagine that life has been so hard on them that they just don't have a smile left!

 

Thanks everyone for posting on this thread. Of course it's a joky thread and certainly I have learnt a lot about things ha ha - Moon Cups for instance, in my 57 years I have never heard of those, neither have the women folk in my family.... education is a wonderful thing

 

Thanks for the laugh!

[chudleighval]

As a woman living aboard...do you miss girlie stuff...chatting..coffee...with girls...pulling your other half to bits...just having right good moan...putting the world to rights...24/7 onboard with your partner no matter how much you love em...can sonedays...make me just want to have a laugh and joke with another woman...any one else feel like this...

[sueb]

As a woman living aboard...do you miss girlie stuff...chatting..coffee...with girls...pulling your other half to bits...just having right good moan...putting the world to rights...24/7 onboard with your partner no matter how much you love em...can sonedays...make me just want to have a laugh and joke with another woman...any one else feel like this...

I usually manage to meet other female friends to have a natter or I escape on holiday with a female friend for the odd week.

Sue

[headjog]

 

I firmly believe every child is born innocent, without any flaws at all. Each one a clean page.

 

Then you might like to read The Soul's Code by James Hillman, who proposes the Acorn Theory, That our calling in life is inborn, we arrive with a blueprint,called the'Daimon' a particular image that moves us towards our destiny, a calling to fulfill - whatever that may be.

 

There's an excellent chapter on the 'Bad seed'looking at why it is/or may be allowed to propagate, and covering such things as,traumatic conditioning, heretary taint, choice mechanisms, The Shadow, karma & Zeitgeist, Lacuna (Something fundamentally human is missing -there is a hole, the Catholic church calls this privatio boni, or deprivation of goodness) and a demonic call.

 

If I remember, somewhere in the book he refers to a midwife who having delivered a child said that she felt she was in the presence of evil. The childs mother was called klara Hitler.

[JennyM]

As a woman living aboard...do you miss girlie stuff...chatting..coffee...with girls...pulling your other half to bits...just having right good moan...putting the world to rights...24/7 onboard with your partner no matter how much you love em...can sonedays...make me just want to have a laugh and joke with another woman...any one else feel like this...

 

Know what you mean Chudleighval, at times you just want to talk and have a laugh, I can do this with my partner but he then 'tries to fix it' - sometimes I just want to rabbit, laugh and have a moan about something but that doesn't mean it needs fixing.

[JennyM]

Then you might like to read The Soul's Code by James Hillman, who proposes the Acorn Theory, That our calling in life is inborn, we arrive with a blueprint,called the'Daimon' a particular image that moves us towards our destiny, a calling to fulfill - whatever that may be.

 

There's an excellent chapter on the 'Bad seed'looking at why it is/or may be allowed to propagate, and covering such things as,traumatic conditioning, heretary taint, choice mechanisms, The Shadow, karma & Zeitgeist, Lacuna (Something fundamentally human is missing -there is a hole, the Catholic church calls this privatio boni, or deprivation of goodness) and a demonic call.

 

If I remember, somewhere in the book he refers to a midwife who having delivered a child said that she felt she was in the presence of evil. The childs mother was called klara Hitler.

 

Thanks for the recommendation, the book isn't out on Kindle (swore I'd never buy another paper book) and I'm not in a place to have it posted yet. But there is a James Hillman book on the Kindle, "We've Had a Hundred Years of Psychotherapy", I've downloaded a sample of it with a view to buying it - looking forward to cuddling up with it this rainy day. Re Klara Hitler's midwife - that is spooky!

 

A little tip I've discovered re the Kindle, I opened my Kindle account with Amazon hiding my UK ISP with one from Europe, this means the Kindle books I buy/download are in $'s, with the $ and Sterling exchange rate being favourable, this can make the books cheaper.

 

Thanks again!

[headjog]

Thanks for the Kindle tip Jenny. Not sure I'm convinced that I'd like a little reading pad yet. I wanted to be a librarian from the age of six (upto the point I decided I wanted to be a vet)I just love the smell of books en masse. Of course now it wouldn't be half as much fun without those little lender cards in long boxes to flick through. And now our library has more computers than books - it doesn't have quite the same appeal at all!

[chudleighval]

Love the kindle...i also have the kindle app on my ipad...which lights up..so great for reading in bed...you dont need lights on....loving reading at the moment The Pillars of the earth ..and really enjoying it....