SmartGauge/SmartBank Advance

[waterat]

I know this subject has been disscussed many times. I have 2 Alternators on my engine one soley for my starter batt and the other for domestic power. If I buy a SmartGauge with the SmartBank Advance, will this look after the charging utilising both alternators for all my batts? I have 3 110ah domestic and 1 110ah starter. I addition I have some solor panels to trickle charge batts when we are away, also I want to fit a mains charger to charge my batts from a genny, can these be intergrated into the whole system?

 

Will it reduce my engine running time to recharge my batteries?

 

Finally is the fitting within the scope of a DIY with some electrical knowledge, I have fitted an Adverc system in the past?

 

Any comments and advice will be much appreciated.

[Gibbo]

It depends on the size of your alternators with respect to the size of the battery banks. With your size battery banks, if the domestic alternator is bigger than about 60 amps or so then paralleling them will hardly make any difference to recharge times. Maybe knock 5 minutes off on a full charge from flat to full so from that point of view it's pointless.

 

However if your alternators are being spun a bit slow (common on narrowboats) then you won't be getting full power from them at tickover, and if that's the case, paralleling them will reduce charge times. Quite substantially. Some would argue that you can achieve the same thing by simply increasing the revs and that is quite correct.

 

It does however give you an easy way to start your engine from the domestics if the engine start battery is flat (simply press a button). It also gives you a form of redundancy in that if an alternator packs in you'll still get charge into both batteries (albeit it a reduced rate but it's better than nothing).

 

It will split charge from a solar panel so that it charges your engine start battery too (handy when leaving the boat for a few months).

 

It will also split charge from a manins charger but you could also do the same by buying a 2 output charger. Admittedly they cost more.

 

If you fitted an Adverc then you'd have no problem at all fitting this.

[sharpness]

You won't get a better or more authoratatatatative answer than that!!!!!

Lock the thread quick!!

 

Steve

[waterat]

It depends on the size of your alternators with respect to the size of the battery banks. With your size battery banks, if the domestic alternator is bigger than about 60 amps or so then paralleling them will hardly make any difference to recharge times. Maybe knock 5 minutes off on a full charge from flat to full so from that point of view it's pointless.

 

However if your alternators are being spun a bit slow (common on narrowboats) then you won't be getting full power from them at tickover, and if that's the case, paralleling them will reduce charge times. Quite substantially. Some would argue that you can achieve the same thing by simply increasing the revs and that is quite correct.

 

It does however give you an easy way to start your engine from the domestics if the engine start battery is flat (simply press a button). It also gives you a form of redundancy in that if an alternator packs in you'll still get charge into both batteries (albeit it a reduced rate but it's better than nothing).

 

It will split charge from a solar panel so that it charges your engine start battery too (handy when leaving the boat for a few months).

 

It will also split charge from a manins charger but you could also do the same by buying a 2 output charger. Admittedly they cost more.

 

If you fitted an Adverc then you'd have no problem at all fitting this.

 

Gibbo, many thanks for the advise, I think maybe the alternators are not operating at full power at tick over, is there an easy way to tell? I have run the engine for many hours and by using a Hydrometer have never seemed to get them fully charged. As for size I think they are both about 80 amp alternators.

 

Does the Smart system influence the alternator at all? because I have read lots about the alternator and how it struggles getting the battery to full charge?

 

Which is why I have also considered Adverc, Why is adverc not so popular?

[WotEver]

I think maybe the alternators are not operating at full power at tick over, is there an easy way to tell?

You measure the current going into the batteries. Speed up the engine, and if the current increases substantially then the alternators are not producing full power at tickover.

 

As for size I think they are both about 80 amp alternators.

 

Unlikely that both of them are that big, but not impossible.

 

Does the Smart system influence the alternator at all?

No.

 

... because I have read lots about the alternator and how it struggles getting the battery to full charge?

???

 

Read http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/products.html

 

Tony

[bottle]

Water rat

 

The answers you have had so far are the business.

 

A simple answer about the alternators charging, they will not at tick-over, an alternator needs to spin at a minimum of 3,000 rpm, faster the better.

 

If you have a 'proper set up' then the engine will need to run at at least 1,000 rpm.

 

The ratio of the pulleys driving the alternator is easy to measure (measure the diameter) and the ratio should be three to one.

 

All the above assumes a 'modern' engine and only refers to the domestic side not the start.

[waterat]

You measure the current going into the batteries. Speed up the engine, and if the current increases substantially then the alternators are not producing full power at tickover.

 

 

 

Unlikely that both of them are that big, but not impossible.

 

 

No.

 

 

???

 

Read http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/products.html

 

Tony

 

You measure the current going into the batteries. Speed up the engine, and if the current increases substantially then the alternators are not producing full power at tickover.

 

 

 

Unlikely that both of them are that big, but not impossible.

 

 

No.

 

 

???

 

Read http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/products.html

 

Tony

[waterat]

wotEver thanks for advise and I have read the SmartGauge site. Am I correct in this! As I see it the Smart system is really good if you charge your all your Batts of 1 Alternator? Because it looks after both banks automatically.

On my boat I have 2 Alternators one dedicated to the starter batt only and the other to my domestic side, so I have don't have to worry about split charging.

It seems to me that my alternator is not spining fast enough at idle to push out ample charge rate, (I checked the volts last year and they were fine but not amps). At the moment I am unable to check this becaus I'm out of the country and not back till April, but trying to do all my reserch before I get home.

 

It just seems to me that the the alternator dedicated to the starter batt is wasted most of the time, and I thought linking them up to charge all the batts was the way forward but Gibbo (the font of boat electrics says not).

In essence my domestic Alternator is not putting enough charge back in. When I check with a Hydrometer it is rarely higher than half charge state, I know i need to add another domestic battery which will give me 3 110ah, but even so if I have run my domestics down to below 50% the alternator should still be able to get them back up to full charge. Am I correct.

Sorry to be a pest but need to get this straight in my head before i go ahead and part with my hard earned dosh.

 

Dave

[bottle]

Any alternator (that is in working order) will charge any battery (bank) {assuming voltage compatibility} the only difference is the time taken to get it back to full charge.

 

It is relatively easy to get a battery (bank) back to 80 to 90% SOC (State Of Charge) but the last 10% will take a long, long time.

 

To re-charge a battery (bank) you have to put back about 50% more than you take out.

 

You may need to look at charging the batteries in a different way, a generator and a three stage charger.

 

You have been given Gibbo's site.

 

another one to look at http://www.batteryfaq.org/

[WotEver]

wotEver thanks for advise and I have read the SmartGauge site. Am I correct in this! As I see it the Smart system is really good if you charge your all your Batts of 1 Alternator?

Nope.

 

If you want to parallel your alternators then SB (Smart Bank) is an ideal solution.

 

Note that Gibbo stated:

However if your alternators are being spun a bit slow (common on narrowboats) then you won't be getting full power from them at tickover, and if that's the case, paralleling them will reduce charge times.

 

Adding more batteries just means you'll have more charge to replace; you need to get the fundamentals right first.

 

However, this is all guesswork without some figures, and with you being out of the country we're not going to get any at present.

 

Tony

 

edit for fat fingers

Edited February 15, 2011 by WotEver

[sociable_hermit]

Boats aren't normally set up to fully charge batteries from tickover, though I suppose it would be possible eventually, if you left it running long enough. If the pulleys were arranged to give optimum alternator output at tickover then the alternator would really be thrashing round at cruising speed! Good for charging in the short term, but unlikely to do any good in the long run (belts, bearings etc.).

 

If your boat never goes anywhere then a generator and charger would be your best bet, possibly assisted by solar panels left to trickle charge the batteries while you are away. Alternatively if you have a shoreline then you could charge the batteries using a charger plugged into that.

[waterat]

I think I have come to a decision but I have one final question, can I use the SmartGauge and have a another none smart system charging my batteries?

 

wotEver only reason I'm adding a 3rd battery is because with only 2 domestic it's taking them way below to recommended 50% discharge.

 

Dave

[sociable_hermit]

Dave - adding another battery won't, in itself, help. Yes you might discharge 3 batteries to 80% rather than 2 batteries to 70% (or whatever), but it also takes longer to charge 3 batteries back up from 80% than it would two from 70%. If your alternator can't manage the latter now, it won't be able to cope with 3 batteries either. The result is that next time round, they won't be fully charged before you start the process, so they'll get flatter, and then you'll fail to recharge them fully again and they'll get flatter still.

 

Gibbo's technology may help you get more power into your batteries when charging but it won't be enough if your electricity consumption is forever fundamentally greater than your charging capability, which does seem to be the case. Either take the boat for a full day's cruising once a week (and consider cutting down on your power consumption), or buy a generator and a set of solar panels and use those in addition to your boat's engine and alternator.

[bottle]

I think I have come to a decision but I have one final question, can I use the SmartGauge and have a another none smart system charging my batteries?

 

wotEver only reason I'm adding a 3rd battery is because with only 2 domestic it's taking them way below to recommended 50% discharge.

 

Dave

 

Yes the Smartgauge is only a battery monitor, although a very clever one.

 

It could be fitted to your existing system.

 

If you fit it do ensure you read the instructions carefully and then truly understand what it tells you.

 

The Smartbank is something else.

 

You do need to look at your consumption to charge ratio.

 

All you will do by fitting another battery is reduce the amount of discharge in each one but you still have to put back what you have taken out +++ a bit.

 

Yes the batteries will not work so hard and may last (lifetime) longer but you will still not be re-charging them correctly.

Edited February 16, 2011 by bottle

[WotEver]

You do need to look at your consumption to charge ratio.

This is, I believe, the fundamental problem here.

 

The number of batteries is far less relevant than the ability to replace the charge lost.

 

Tony

[nb Innisfree]

Increasing batt bank size doesn't mean more power has to be replaced, if you use, say, 100ah then this is the amount that needs replacing irrespective of batt capacity. If as OP says he is going below 50% SoC then he either needs to increase his number of charging sessions per day or increase batt bank size (assuming his alt is turning fast enough) When he is in absorption (roughly 80% SoC though this figure can vary quite a bit) he will have spare charging capacity and this can be used to charge more batts therefore increasing his batt bank won't increase time in absorption provided his alternator capacity isn't exceeded i.e. 8 batts will take the same time to reach 100% SoC from acceptance as 1 batt if alt is big enough (not including bulk charge here) Or am I missing something again, Gibbo?

[bottle]

Increasing batt bank size doesn't mean more power has to be replaced,

 

Agreed.

 

if you use, say, 100ah then this is the amount that needs replacing irrespective of batt capacity.

 

Agreed plus about 50% owing to losses in the charging process.

 

If as OP says he is going below 50% SoC then he either needs to increase his number of charging sessions per day

 

Agreed or legthen them to ensure 100% SOC.

 

or increase batt bank size

 

That will not solve his problem, he is under charging and assumes he will continues with the charging regime he has now.

 

The OP is using more than he should with his existing battery bank, charging system.

 

He needs to use less or charge more

 

All that increasing the battery bank will do is reduce the DOD (depth of discharge) and so the batteries may last longer (life).

[WotEver]

Increasing batt bank size doesn't mean more power has to be replaced...

When you wrote this I don't know if you were picking up on my earler post where I wrote

Adding more batteries just means you'll have more charge to replace; you need to get the fundamentals right first.

... but in case I was misunderstood, let me explain.

 

It is apparent that OP is undercharging. He was suggesting that by adding another battery he'd have more capacity before the batts were 'flat'. In my above post I was attempting to point out that this would then mean that he'd have to put even more charge back into the bank (because he'd have used more charge). If he's putting in insufficient right now, then how is a greater capacity going to help?

 

I hope that's clearer.

 

Tony

[nb Innisfree]

When you wrote this I don't know if you were picking up on my earler post where I wrote ... but in case I was misunderstood, let me explain.

 

It is apparent that OP is undercharging. He was suggesting that by adding another battery he'd have more capacity before the batts were 'flat'. In my above post I was attempting to point out that this would then mean that he'd have to put even more charge back into the bank (because he'd have used more charge). If he's putting in insufficient right now, then how is a greater capacity going to help?

 

I hope that's clearer.

 

Tony

 

I think we are all agreeing on things, I was trying to clear up any possible misunderstanding from OP. Yes if he is not replacing his usage then more batts won't help. In his first post he said he had 3x110ah but but in a later post he said he was going to add another batt to make it 3x110ah so if he is dropping to below 50% SoC then that would suggest in his first post he is using more than 150ah daily (assuming his batts are still holding about 100ah) but in a later post he said he was going to add another batt to make 3x110ah so on that basis he is using over 100ah, in either case I would think another batt would help things in the long run even if he doesn't increase his usage (after he has sorted his charging probs of course)

[Tony Brooks]

 

Which is why I have also considered Adverc, Why is adverc not so popular?

 

 

I suspect it is more to do with marketing spend than technical reasons. However since alternators now have a typical charging voltage of 14.4 it kind of renders the Adverc redundant unless it is being used to hide a fault within the charging system.

 

I have an Adverc and wonder what will happen if I stick a diode in its sensing lead to make it charge at (say) 14.8 volts. At least the way Adverc operates should rule out the busted beta battery problem with high voltages.

[waterat]

I suspect it is more to do with marketing spend than technical reasons. However since alternators now have a typical charging voltage of 14.4 it kind of renders the Adverc redundant unless it is being used to hide a fault within the charging system.

 

I have an Adverc and wonder what will happen if I stick a diode in its sensing lead to make it charge at (say) 14.8 volts. At least the way Adverc operates should rule out the busted beta battery problem with high voltages.

[waterat]

Thanks for the advice Tony was it you who had a link to carry out a power audit? I guess this is the first thing I should do is determine how much power I really do need. Does power consumption increase if you are running 230v items through the inverter? Because I have a 230v fridge on my boat but it has the AAA rating.

 

The way I'm reading this is if at cruising speed my Alternator gives me 14.4 volts I am wasting my money fitting an Adverc system?

 

The boat was built in 2007 so I guess the alternators will be up to spec, I do know the previous owner had a 2nd alternator fitted which is dedicated to the starter batt.

 

I have just been mulling around in my head how I can make better use of the starter alternator when I'm running the engine.

 

I have a good genny so I am now thinking just buy a good quality charger and when I'm not crusing use the genny to charge my batts.

[Keeping Up]

Thanks for the advice Tony was it you who had a link to carry out a power audit? I guess this is the first thing I should do is determine how much power I really do need. Does power consumption increase if you are running 230v items through the inverter? Because I have a 230v fridge on my boat but it has the AAA rating.

 

The way I'm reading this is if at cruising speed my Alternator gives me 14.4 volts I am wasting my money fitting an Adverc system?

 

The boat was built in 2007 so I guess the alternators will be up to spec, I do know the previous owner had a 2nd alternator fitted which is dedicated to the starter batt.

 

I have just been mulling around in my head how I can make better use of the starter alternator when I'm running the engine.

 

I have a good genny so I am now thinking just buy a good quality charger and when I'm not crusing use the genny to charge my batts.

 

Yes the power consumption does increase when running through an inverter - typically by about 10%. Some of this figure comes from the actual inefficiencies in converting the power, and some of it comes from the power wasted by the inverter in staying awake while the fridge motor is not running.

 

It's almost certainly true that if your alternator already produces 14.4 volts, then an Adverc would do nothing for you.

[bottle]

I have a good genny so I am now thinking just buy a good quality charger and when I'm not crusing use the genny to charge my batts.

 

Sorted.

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks for the advice Tony was it you who had a link to carry out a power audit? I guess this is the first thing I should do is determine how much power I really do need. Does power consumption increase if you are running 230v items through the inverter? Because I have a 230v fridge on my boat but it has the AAA rating.

 

The way I'm reading this is if at cruising speed my Alternator gives me 14.4 volts I am wasting my money fitting an Adverc system?

 

The boat was built in 2007 so I guess the alternators will be up to spec, I do know the previous owner had a 2nd alternator fitted which is dedicated to the starter batt.

 

I have just been mulling around in my head how I can make better use of the starter alternator when I'm running the engine.

 

I have a good genny so I am now thinking just buy a good quality charger and when I'm not crusing use the genny to charge my batts.

 

 

If that 14.4 is measured between the battery terminals on the batteries then the Adverc may only push the voltage up to 14.5V in 20 minute bursts of high then low. If the voltage between terminal is lower then an Adverc will probably overcome this and hide it, but still in 20 second bursts.

 

Simple power audit and some kind of charging calcs in the Articles section on www.tb-training.co.uk website (sorry, on mobile so reluctant to log on to get the actual URL. I advise dividing the inverter load wattages by 10/20 to give an automatic 80% inverter efficiency. A large pure sine inverter could use up to 5 amps just to work itself - use that to provide 0.35 amps for a phone and it is nowhere near 90 or even 8*% efficiency.

 

If you get a decent sized charger that will do equalisation then it will probably do a better job than the alternator as long as you run the generator for long enough.

 

If you just link then two alternators then one may well shut down as soon as they come out of bulk charge. If both have the same output this would decrease the bulk time. I think the Sterling Alt to Bat charger may have inputs for two alternators and that should keep them both working. I am not recommending this though.