Improving the basics for new boaters.

[Natalie Graham]

It is the MCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency) that are responsible for safety of craft on inland waterways.

Out of interest, how did that come about? "Maritime" and "Coastguard" are not two words that immediately suggest an association with inland waterways. Why are BW not the ones who are responsible for the safety of the craft on their waterways?

[rgreg]

So much gets said about "hire boaters this" and "hire boaters that" and I think back to when I hired for the first time. I was shown a wooden model of a lock, taken through the boat, and accompanied for a short cruise. It was daunting but I was happy with the instruction I got because I just wanted to get going. After that it was a matter of picking up the skills as we went along and learning from mistakes, of which, of course, there were plenty. I don't recall any life-threatening incidents and, like the vast majority of hire boaters I meet, worked very hard to get it right and respect the ways of the canals. A lot of the safety aspect is common sense and taking the time to read the literature provided; the steering skills are developed over time. Now I have more experience I am happy to help and make allowance for any new-comers and hope they enjoy what is a great family holiday.

[Grace and Favour]

I'll tell you what, mate. We all learned somewhere, somehow. We never stop learning, or if we do, then that is a pity. Always take advice, sift through it and discard the poor from the valuable, and most of all, enjoy the boating and smile when things don't work out quite as you meant them to.

 

There was no Helmsman's Course when I started, but there were more old hands around to help if you were prepared to listen. From them I learned things like the boatman's hitch, placing the bow of the boat against the lock gate, taking a bow rope back to the centre bollard in broad locks and using the motor to prevent being banged around, and ensuring that the pint was filled to the brim at the pub you ended up at. If in doubt, hold back in good time whilst keeping tick over power to be able to hold the boat, and then judge what to do next. The mooring you're looking for will still be there, and if you are really in a hurry, there is always a taxi service available in most areas.

 

Enjoy. There's a great community of people on the cut and patience is the only price of joining them.

 

 

Well said, old bean

 

A touch of common sense, logic and experience!

[magpie patrick]

Out of interest, how did that come about? "Maritime" and "Coastguard" are not two words that immediately suggest an association with inland waterways. Why are BW not the ones who are responsible for the safety of the craft on their waterways?

 

Because it used to be the board of trade for passenger vessels with more than 12 passengers,and the navigation authority (which generally wasn't interested) for other boats, and another body (can't remember which) for merchant vessels. When everything was combined the vast majority of the duties were to do with seagoing vessels, hence the term Maritime and Coastguard Agency. However the agency has four categories of water, which are one way in which the need for regulation is determined, and most inland waterways are category A, non-tidal waters generally less than 1.2m deep. They are not that interested in theseas they perceive the risks to be low.

 

The problem with navigation authorities being responsibe is they are likely to make decisions which suit them, hence things like bollards fiasco. Someone at BW should have noticed that neither the MCA nor the Marina Accident Investigation Board had ever suggested the need for these bollards

[mayalld]

From my canalside office I get to observe the antics of hire boaters every day. Because four hire boats operate from Stowe Hill (near Weedon on the GU for those not familiar with the location) there are times during handover when the channel is a little congested by double mooring whilst they are refuelled and serviced. Other hire boats pass by and slow down to negotiate. They do so with patience and care on almost every occasion.

 

A tiny but noticeable number of the privately owned boats that pass through race to get to the bridge hole first, whinnying about the narrowed passage, caring not one jot about the moored boats they are passing, shouting things such as. "one more boat and they could block it completely". In short, showing a complete lack of consideration for any other boater or a canalside business trying to earn a living.

 

Please don't go on about a "boat passport" or "boat driving licence" for the hirers. They are generally very considerate people looking to enjoy a holiday. Do go on about that small minority of private owners who think they have a God given right to enjoy a canal without any other boats on it, object to canal side businesses going about their trade so that they can pay the rent and make a living, have no idea how to handle their boats in locks, don't know how to tie up their boats properly, and use bowthrusters to negotiate the slightest change of direction because they can't be bothered to learn how to steer, or even insist in the broad GU locks that no one shares the lock with them in case their rubbing strakes get rubbed. They are the ones that need passports.

 

Hmm.

 

Whilst I woukld agree that there certainly are thoe who think that when they bought the boat, they bought the canal system with it, I think that you go to far in defending poor practice from Hire boat operators.

 

Yes, they are trying to make a living, but that does not give them carte blanche to cause obstructions.

 

I know that I'm not the only one to witness the company at Wrenbury completely fouling up the Llangollen for an hour, causing long queues both ways whilst they block the canal.

 

Or perhaps you would like to defend the staff of Anglo-Welsh on the S-on-A, who moored their fleet so that it was impossible to get onto the aqueduct, and went for lunch?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Out of interest, how did that come about? "Maritime" and "Coastguard" are not two words that immediately suggest an association with inland waterways. Why are BW not the ones who are responsible for the safety of the craft on their waterways?

 

This link may help in answering that.

 

My understanding is that BW and other navigation authorities will have the job of policing the new hire boat code.

 

However, it has been dragging on for years and nothing much seems to have happened since NABO got the draft code changed so that it did affect private boaters.

[Mick and Maggie]

Have you ever hired a boat?

Yes, about 10 times.

 

If you have you will know that you do recieve an amount of tuition from the hire base. It is up to you to tell them when you feel confident enough to take the boat. Some are done very quickly others have a very thorough hand over it depends on the company.

 

But it would be good to have a recognised syllabus of instruction.

 

Hire companies can not expect potential hirers to pay an additional charge to receive tuition and a "passport". Most simply won't do it. It would spell the end of the UK hire boat industry.

 

I don't recognise the threat of "going out of business" as being a realistic assertion. The more responsible ones who are members of ACPO do seem to abide by the ACPO handover guidelines. I would think that they are not about to go out of business. So who do you suppose covers their additional costs?

 

I dont know what you intend to achieve with this topic.

This being a forum for discussion of canal topics, I would have said it was to stimulate a discussion.

 

but to suggest all hirers must have a qualification is just plain silly.

I think you are reading more into the thread than was actually said. It said - instruction only and suggests that a formal test would not be needed.

 

(To obtain the initial Passport the hirer will have to undergo around a two hours of training on basic boat handling, mooring and locking tasks. There would be no test - just a practical introduction.)

 

You dont need one to own and use your own boat why would you get one to hire a boat?

Again, you seem to be reading more than was said.... There is no mention of boat owners - it refers to individuals doing a hire for the very first time.

 

What I do find difficult to comprehend the attitude from some quarters, that the RYA Inland Helmsman's Certificate is a waste of time. You cannot have it both ways, complain about the standard of boatmanship, of some hirers and private owners and say qualifications are irrelevant.

 

I agree, it's a curious paradox, when experienced boaters who might claim to know better, decry the lack of skills in new hirers. Yet, when the opportunity for having some basic handover instruction recorded with a simple document for future use. It's suddenly the end of the world for the canals, the hire business will go to the wall. Therefore can one assume that they would support that new hirers should get no instruction - and that it is a guarantee for the canals to flourish and that the earth is flat.

 

More people die swimming and cycling than on canal boats, so why the hell do you want to charge more to regulate it.

Who said it needed regulating? Using your analogy as less people die from being hit by a meteorite, than from an accident on a canal boat, so should we ban boating?

 

I would have thought the criteria, was reducing all kinds of accidents (not just fatalities) through basic skills training and awareness was the way forward. It works everywhere else on earth - so why would it not work on the canals?

 

Read Tony Jones story in towpath tales about his first trip on a narrowboat, in the March and April issues of Towpath Talk.

[Naughty Cal]

But it would be good to have a recognised syllabus of instruction.

 

Syllabus for what. How can you possibly teach every situation you will come across?

 

Do you not do much in the way of boating?

[mayalld]

Syllabus for what. How can you possibly teach every situation you will come across?

 

Do you not do much in the way of boating?

 

Phylis, why are you being so combative.

 

Of course, no course of instruction can cover all eventualities. However, it might be sensible to ensure that there is core sylabus of things that ought to be covered.

[carlt]

I don't recognise the threat of "going out of business" as being a realistic assertion. The more responsible ones who are members of ACPO do seem to abide by the ACPO handover guidelines. I would think that they are not about to go out of business. So who do you suppose covers their additional costs?

Considering some of the stuff the ACPO comes out with I'm not sure "Responsible" is a membership requirement.

 

Safety isn't really an issue as the risk of harm, on a boating holiday, is minimal.

 

If responsible boating is an issue then, perhaps, it is the hire companies that should require a "passport" proving that they are providing adequate training, rather than ACPO, as usual, trying to pass the buck on to the paying customer.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Hmm.

 

Whilst I woukld agree that there certainly are thoe who think that when they bought the boat, they bought the canal system with it, I think that you go to far in defending poor practice from Hire boat operators.

 

Yes, they are trying to make a living, but that does not give them carte blanche to cause obstructions.

 

I know that I'm not the only one to witness the company at Wrenbury completely fouling up the Llangollen for an hour, causing long queues both ways whilst they block the canal.

 

Or perhaps you would like to defend the staff of Anglo-Welsh on the S-on-A, who moored their fleet so that it was impossible to get onto the aqueduct, and went for lunch?

 

I can confirm that the Anglo-Welsh base on the S-on-A no longer blocks the Aqueduct as they have now taken to using the visitor moorings instead.

 

Are they allowed to do this?

[Naughty Cal]

Phylis, why are you being so combative.

 

Of course, no course of instruction can cover all eventualities. However, it might be sensible to ensure that there is core sylabus of things that ought to be covered.

 

Such as what?

 

How to tie your shoe laces?

Where the kettle is?

And what your hire boat looks like?

 

Each hire base has their own handover which covers aspects which they think is important. A standard syllabus just isnt going to cover every hire base around the country.

[mayalld]

Such as what?

 

How to tie your shoe laces?

Where the kettle is?

And what your hire boat looks like?

 

Each hire base has their own handover which covers aspects which they think is important. A standard syllabus just isnt going to cover every hire base around the country.

 

OK, two questions;

 

1) Are hire bases experts in delivering training, or would they benefit from a structured outline that training ought to follow, upon which they can build to suit local circumstances.

2) Are hire bases concerned with the effect that hirers have on other boaters, or is their main concern simply getting THEIR kit back undamaged?

[Naughty Cal]

OK, two questions;

 

1) Are hire bases experts in delivering training, or would they benefit from a structured outline that training ought to follow, upon which they can build to suit local circumstances.

2) Are hire bases concerned with the effect that hirers have on other boaters, or is their main concern simply getting THEIR kit back undamaged?

 

No they are not experts in delivering training nor do they need to be. They need to structure their handover to suit the local waterways and facilities, which most of them already do.

 

Of course hire bases are concerned with getting their property back undamaged, why shouldnt they be.

 

I am interested how you expect the hire base to keep tabs on the whole of their fleet and the hirers effect on other boaters and how the "passport" would make this simpler.

[mayalld]

No they are not experts in delivering training nor do they need to be. They need to structure their handover to suit the local waterways and facilities, which most of them already do.

 

Of course hire bases are concerned with getting their property back undamaged, why shouldnt they be.

 

I am interested how you expect the hire base to keep tabs on the whole of their fleet and the hirers effect on other boaters and how the "passport" would make this simpler.

 

So, whilst some operators give good training, others give inadequate training that does no more than ensure that they get the boat back at the end of the week, and to hell with anybody else who may have suffered because the hirers just didn't know.

[barge sara]

Well I have a licence to own a television set!

 

But I must have missed the announcement of the mandatory training course on how to use it.

 

Electronic equipment is different. You have to have a resident teenage expert as a condition of the licence....

[Mick and Maggie]

Electronic equipment is different. You have to have a resident teenage expert as a condition of the licence....

 

Perceptive and true.... When all else fails - ask the child...

[Naughty Cal]

So, whilst some operators give good training, others give inadequate training that does no more than ensure that they get the boat back at the end of the week, and to hell with anybody else who may have suffered because the hirers just didn't know.

 

Rubbish and you know it.

 

A hirer could have the best two hour handover and still ignore it all when left to their own devices. They are on holiday and will be paying through the nose for it and will be out to enjoy themselves.

[Mick and Maggie]

I am interested how you expect the hire base to keep tabs on the whole of their fleet and the hirers effect on other boaters and how the "passport" would make this simpler.

 

The hire base would keep tabs in the same way that they do now or not as the case may be....

 

The passport is to encourage a reasonable standard of handover instruction and improve awareness. I can't see where it suggests any monitoring or tracking element. But it would go some way to generally improving other boaters experience of canal newbies.

 

Of course hire bases are concerned with getting their property back undamaged, why shouldnt they be.

 

The question should be how interested are the hire bases that "other boaters keep their property undamaged" through incidents and accidents that could be minimised by instruction and awarness as part of the handover.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Mick and Maggie

[magpie patrick]

Mick and Maggie, whichever of you it is...

 

You're the one that started a thread asking if it was always like this, well it seems you can give as good as you get.

 

You have been presented with countless arguments and even some analysis that your suggestion would add expense (even your own proposal suggests the passport might cost £25) to operators and hirers, then change you tune to the effect "the good yards are this already". If that is true then the charge for your blasted piece of paper would be nominal, but I would venture that no yard is issuing 2 hours of instruction to anyone, because that would mean you'd have to have a member of staff per boat on turn round day. fine if you've only got three boats, the cleaner, the mechanic and the boss can cover it, but not on if you've got twenty.

 

You have basically decided that you would feel more comfortable (or more smug) with a piece of paper in your hand, and you are refusing to listen to anyone who says it's not a good idea because... You have not come up with any credible evidence of there real benefits to this idea, and freely admit that a boat owner doesn't need one. Why not? If it's such a good idea, because they use their boats more and have more experience? dream on, people buy boats who've never hired and use them infrequently, and except for stag party type hirers I would day most of the worst boatmanship I have seen has been from private boats.

 

Never mind have you hired boats, have you any idea of the economics of the industry? I have, as part of my job is to analyse the economics of tourism, and suffice to say the profits are borderline, that's why no hire boat companies are in themselves plc's, and Anglo-Welsh's attempt on the alternative market went belly up. Do you even realise that, if a company takes a booking through one of the big agencies, the see little more than half the booking fee? of that estimated £1k, £175 disappears in VAT (and yes they can claim VAT back on other things, but being labour intensive their biggest cost labour, is non-vatable) and a significant slice then goes to the agent (typically another £200). The big groups have economies of scale, the smaller companies last on fairly thin profit margins and are often in if for the love of it, and don't tend to use agencies.

 

In response to your other thread we don't pick on newbies per se, but we do tend to have major irritation (on both sides) with people who stick lear like their view no matter what arguments against it are presented.

[mayalld]

Rubbish and you know it.

 

A hirer could have the best two hour handover and still ignore it all when left to their own devices. They are on holiday and will be paying through the nose for it and will be out to enjoy themselves.

 

No, it isn't rubbish, and you know it.

 

Whilst it is true that even with a good handover a hirer can ignore everything and do it wrong, it is also true that they have a fighting chance of getting it right.

 

A first-time hirer who gets a crap handover is doomed to get it wrong.

 

Experience shows that some hire companies have a better ratio of good to bad hirers than others. I can only surmise that their handover is better done.

[magpie patrick]

But it would go some way to generally improving other boaters experience of canal newbies.

 

It often isn't the newbs that are the "problem" the worst you find is that they apologise and are happy to ask for advice, it's the ones who think they've seen it all as they've done this ten times before, or owned the boat for ten years.

 

Of course if you don't like giving friendly advice when some one is looking for help newbs can be a pain I suppose

[Naughty Cal]

No, it isn't rubbish, and you know it.

 

Whilst it is true that even with a good handover a hirer can ignore everything and do it wrong, it is also true that they have a fighting chance of getting it right.

 

A first-time hirer who gets a crap handover is doomed to get it wrong.

 

Experience shows that some hire companies have a better ratio of good to bad hirers than others. I can only surmise that their handover is better done.

 

Tosh, you dont get any better with age David, more like a cheap wine just get stale.

 

Have you ever been on holiday and thought just for this one week i will enjoy myself?

 

A first time hirer regardless of how good or long the handover was, is going to get things wrong or take longer to carry out tasks. This is a fact. A standard syllabus isnt going to suddenly give them a weeks worth of experience. Those that are moaning at the hirers are just going to have to accept that you cant just jump behind the wheel/tiller of a boat and become and instant expert.

[Keeping Up]

It often isn't the newbs that are the "problem" the worst you find is that they apologise and are happy to ask for advice, it's the ones who think they've seen it all as they've done this ten times before, or owned the boat for ten years.

 

Of course if you don't like giving friendly advice when some one is looking for help newbs can be a pain I suppose

When I used to show people out from our local hire base, the absolute newbies were probably the least problematic.

 

The worst of all were those who had been just once, two years before, because after one year they thought they knew it all (they didn't) and two years in between was long enough for them to have forgotten nearly everything but short enough for them to think they'd remembered it; I could always tell that they weren't listening properly to anything I said.

[Naughty Cal]

When I used to show people out from our local hire base, the absolute newbies were probably the least problematic.

 

The worst of all were those who had been just once, two years before, because after one year they thought they knew it all (they didn't) and two years in between was long enough for them to have forgotten nearly everything but short enough for them to think they'd remembered it; I could always tell that they weren't listening properly to anything I said.

 

You should have refused their passport..................

 

oh sorry they dont need one do they