boat insulation

[tomandsophie]

Thanks Chris, I'll have a look when I get home.

[Wyn2joy]

Wow! Thanks everyone. Any time I ask what I think is a fairly straight forward question (fools tread where angels fear to go and all that) I quickly find out how much I don't know. This is what makes the the NB community and Canal Forum so amazing. It's such a blessing to not have to re-invent the wheel or learn from disaster by creating it.

 

What got me to thinking about thinsulate was an article (Canal Boat November 08) on The NB Malanne: "For insulation, Reading uses Thinsulate rather than spray foam, believing it is more effective, helps to absorb noise, and takes up less room. To help increase space inside there’s no battening and the interior panels are instead fixed directly to the shell (leaving an air gap, of course)." (Graham Booth)

 

From another article (Waterways World April 08) about the NB Chough which is a Reading Marine Co. hire boat: "Before the fit-out starts, the shell is lined with 3M Thinsulate. Andy was one of the first boat-fitters to use this product and still considers it superior to any other type of insulation. Plus points include ease of installation, high air content resulting in less weight and less risk to owners in the event of a fire. It also acts as a sound insulator making the interior of the boat feel calm and peaceful." (Graham Booth)

 

Every other boat I've reviewed had spray foam insulation. I do notice now though that neither article meantions the R-value (or is it a different alphabet in the U.K. and /or for boats as opposed to houses?) of the thinuslate vs. spray foam.

 

Considering the wag of the weather folks on the canals are currenlty surviving under, I want to be sure that my boat willl "weather" such weather. I don't mind hibernating unde a mass of snow and ice, I just don't want to hear my teeth rattle as I do it.

Wyn

[ChrisPy]

What got me to thinking about thinsulate was an article (Canal Boat November 08) on The NB Malanne: "For insulation, Reading uses Thinsulate rather than spray foam, believing it is more effective, helps to absorb noise, and takes up less room. To help increase space inside there’s no battening and the interior panels are instead fixed directly to the shell (leaving an air gap, of course)." (Graham Booth)

 

From another article (Waterways World April 08) about the NB Chough which is a Reading Marine Co. hire boat: "Before the fit-out starts, the shell is lined with 3M Thinsulate. Andy was one of the first boat-fitters to use this product and still considers it superior to any other type of insulation. Plus points include ease of installation, high air content resulting in less weight and less risk to owners in the event of a fire. It also acts as a sound insulator making the interior of the boat feel calm and peaceful." (Graham Booth)

it is predictable that a boatbuilder will try to extol the virtues of the product that he prefers to use.

the reasons for its use may be that he has bad experience with specialist sprayfoam subcontractors letting him down, and therefore he may wish to control the insulation process in-house.

[colin stone]

Thinsulate - not really convinced by it. Lower U value. Difficulty ensuring that there is a 100% effective vapour barrier - after all Thinsulate is designed to allow the passage of water vapour - as in Thinsulate clothing. Fixing internal lining direct to shell seems to guarantee a thermal short. Might be marginally lighter, but do not consider that this is a concern.

 

Sprayfoam - higher U value, stiffens and dampens steelwork vibration - eg when walking on roof. Also absorbs sound. Another great advantage is that it can be touched up with spray cans and when lining out panels can be strategically bonded to the sprayfoam, increasing lining stiffness and "solidity".

[ditchcrawler]

it is predictable that a boatbuilder will try to extol the virtues of the product that he prefers to use.

the reasons for its use may be that he has bad experience with specialist sprayfoam subcontractors letting him down, and therefore he may wish to control the insulation process in-house.

You must also remember they are agents for it and sell it,its part of their business. Its unlikely that a Range Rover agent would say how good a Merc was

[smileypete]

I agree with you, a few years ago at Braunston,Merlin were still fitting narrow boats and he had two he was working on at the same time, one spray one wool. He put an identical electric heater in each boat and recorded the internal temperatures, Guss which was warmer, the spray foamed one

Any idea how much warmer it was, and the outside temp?

 

I reckon Celotex/Kingspan slabs plus small air gap for sides, and multifoil plus airgap for curved roof would do quite well.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[bag 'o' bones]

Problem is with new products is that you will always have those who are suckered into purchasing even with overwhelming evidence that the common 'accepted' material is more than adequate. They pays their money and even when they realise that the new fangled material is not the wonder material as originally thought; they would never admit it to save face!

 

From what I can make out spray foam has all the advantages of other types of insulation plus more, so personally I don't think there is any contest.

 

Spray foam all the way!

[soldthehouse]

Problem is with new products is that you will always have those who are suckered into purchasing even with overwhelming evidence that the common 'accepted' material is more than adequate. They pays their money and even when they realise that the new fangled material is not the wonder material as originally thought; they would never admit it to save face!

 

From what I can make out spray foam has all the advantages of other types of insulation plus more, so personally I don't think there is any contest.

 

Spray foam all the way!

Well said some things cant be improved upon no matter how much people try, but that doesnt stop them trying. The constant quest to improve things is leading us down some very dark alleys indeed...

[soldthehouse]

Like polyurethane wood glue then. Is it polyurethane based?

Yes its polyurethane based and has an isocyanate activator in it like superglue to speed up curing. We would never spray over primer as this reduces key, but i can see someone suggesting primer if they have a vested interested in selling the sort of quantity used in narrowboats.I would equate it to trying to plaster over a wall that had been painted instead of applying directly onto bare plaster.

[Canalwatcher]

Aqualine use the same insulation as that used for refrigerated lorries and cold stores made by Paneltex Ltd who have a link with Aqualine. It's a fairly rigid blue coloured lightweight material about 3" thick not sure what it is called. It has proved very effective on Zodiak where we have had no condensation problems

 

 

Mick

[nb Innisfree]

Basically insulation uses one thing to prevent conduction and that is air or an inert gas as in sealed double glazing, the next best thing to a vacuum. Trying to trap air in bubbles to prevent convection currents and condensation needs some material but this can conduct heat, polyurethane is a very effective adhesive and because of it's foaming properties and being a low heat conductor happens to be the ideal thing for the job. Messy though.

[ditchcrawler]

Any idea how much warmer it was, and the outside temp?

 

I reckon Celotex/Kingspan slabs plus small air gap for sides, and multifoil plus airgap for curved roof would do quite well.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Cant remember, it was several years ago and we were just idly chatting.

[ChrisPy]

regarding the observations that sprayfoam appears to have no bond to bare steel suggests that the sprayfoam is adhering to the millscale that is present on many hulls, and if you pull the sprayfoam off it brings the millscale with it.

does that make any sense?

[ditchcrawler]

Well said some things cant be improved upon no matter how much people try, but that doesnt stop them trying. The constant quest to improve things is leading us down some very dark alleys indeed...

Comment removed

Edited January 9, 2010 by ditchcrawler

[soldthehouse]

Should we mention propellers at this point

Feel free to dredge up any old chestnut, thats how good conversations go, not good forum etiquette but good conversation and the two dont go together....

Edited January 9, 2010 by soldthehouse

[nb Innisfree]

regarding the observations that sprayfoam appears to have no bond to bare steel suggests that the sprayfoam is adhering to the millscale that is present on many hulls, and if you pull the sprayfoam off it brings the millscale with it.

does that make any sense?

 

In the example I referred to the foam came away clean and left any millscale intact. The ideal IMO woul be primer on shotblasted steel before sprayfoam.

[steelaway]

I agree with you, a few years ago at Braunston,Merlin were still fitting narrow boats and he had two he was working on at the same time, one spray one wool. He put an identical electric heater in each boat and recorded the internal temperatures, Guss which was warmer, the spray foamed one

 

 

The reverse of that -

We were fitting out our boat at the height of summer, the temperture inside was horrendous.

The day after it was spray foamed the temperature inside dropped by at least 10 degrees.

 

Although the first time it was done it was obvious that they had not put on enough thickness - it was below the battens. (3" below the gunnels and 2" above)

I asked them to come back again (Websters) and without any complaint they came back and resprayed it.

I got a lot more thickness with the second coat I'll tell you - we were cutting back for days!!!

I have not suffered from any condensation but I have no way of telling whether it has come unstuck any where.

It was applied to bare metal on a very hot day.

 

Alex

[ditchcrawler]

The reverse of that -

We were fitting out our boat at the height of summer, the temperture inside was horrendous.

The day after it was spray foamed the temperature inside dropped by at least 10 degrees.

 

Although the first time it was done it was obvious that they had not put on enough thickness - it was below the battens. (3" below the gunnels and 2" above)

I asked them to come back again (Websters) and without any complaint they came back and resprayed it.

I got a lot more thickness with the second coat I'll tell you - we were cutting back for days!!!

I have not suffered from any condensation but I have no way of telling whether it has come unstuck any where.

It was applied to bare metal on a very hot day.

 

Alex

I had the same problem, our hull was sprayed out the day before it was delivered to Suffolk for fitting out. On close inspection in some places it was like a coat of paint. The spray foam company from Wales offered to send so cans of spray to touch it up, which I refused. A couple of month later they asked how soon they could come and rectify things as the hull builder had not given them any more orders since. It was not Websters. I don't know how I would have got on without the builders support?

[Wyn2joy]

Any idea how much warmer it was, and the outside temp?

 

I reckon Celotex/Kingspan slabs plus small air gap for sides, and multifoil plus airgap for curved roof would do quite well.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Hello Pete,

I'd never heard of Celotex or Kingspan. After some research I found Celotex filed for bankruptcy due to asbestos in their products and legal claims. Kingspan has a very interesting web site, which I will visit again later and read up on a bit more. Thanks for sharing these products.

Wyn

 

Aqualine use the same insulation as that used for refrigerated lorries and cold stores made by Paneltex Ltd who have a link with Aqualine. It's a fairly rigid blue coloured lightweight material about 3" thick not sure what it is called. It has proved very effective on Zodiak where we have had no condensation problems

 

 

Mick

 

Hi Mick,

Okay then, Paneltex is new to me, so I took a look at their web site and it has some interesting applications. I'll go back and look at it more indepth later. Thanks for weighing in. And thank for including the picture!

Wyn

[nb Innisfree]

The reverse of that -

We were fitting out our boat at the height of summer, the temperture inside was horrendous.

The day after it was spray foamed the temperature inside dropped by at least 10 degrees.

 

Although the first time it was done it was obvious that they had not put on enough thickness - it was below the battens. (3" below the gunnels and 2" above)

I asked them to come back again (Websters) and without any complaint they came back and resprayed it.

I got a lot more thickness with the second coat I'll tell you - we were cutting back for days!!!

I have not suffered from any condensation but I have no way of telling whether it has come unstuck any where.

It was applied to bare metal on a very hot day.

 

Alex

 

If it does come unstuck it shouldn't be a problem if foam hasn't cracked and remains intact, it will still insulate and as air will still be excluded no condensation should take place.

[Grace and Favour]

I've not yet been involved with spraying insulation to a narrowboat - - but, in order to 'guarantee' the foam takes a firm hold on the steel - - is there not a good bonding material one could dress the steel with - - - like PVA for example?

Edited January 10, 2010 by Grace & Favour

[nb Innisfree]

I've not yet been involved with spraying insulation to a narrowboat - - but, in order to 'guarantee' the foam takes a firm hold on the steel - - is there not a good bonding material one could dress the steel with - - - like PVA for example?

 

Polyurethane adhesive is very strong used in lots of applications, a side effect is when applied it produces a gas which has the effect of it aerating and produces a foam which is very handy for insulation purposes, this aeration can be much improved by controlling it's application, hence sprayfoam! Pu adhesive and therefore sprayfoam sticks well to bare steel but sticks much better to primed steel and the better the primer the more that sticks to the steel.

Edited January 10, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[starman]

Aqualine use the same insulation as that used for refrigerated lorries and cold stores made by Paneltex Ltd who have a link with Aqualine. It's a fairly rigid blue coloured lightweight material about 3" thick not sure what it is called. It has proved very effective on Zodiak where we have had no condensation problems

 

Mick

 

These are Styrofoam insulation panels - quite widely used in building and vehicle insulation. The material is not to be confused with polystyrene and isn't just a load of squashed coffee cups either. Apparently it is compressible and has good moisture resistance but I don't know the U value or anything further. I'm sure Googling would reveal more info.

 

Hello Pete,

I'd never heard of Celotex or Kingspan. After some research I found Celotex filed for bankruptcy due to asbestos in their products and legal claims.

 

Are we talking about the same Celotex? This is the insulation board manufacturer click

[Wyn2joy]

These are Styrofoam insulation panels - quite widely used in building and vehicle insulation. The material is not to be confused with polystyrene and isn't just a load of squashed coffee cups either. Apparently it is compressible and has good moisture resistance but I don't know the U value or anything further. I'm sure Googling would reveal more info.

 

 

 

Are we talking about the same Celotex? This is the insulation board manufacturer click

 

Thank you for the link. I do find it an interesting coincidence both companies were operating in the U.S. in the early part of the last century, both share the same name, and are in the same business--insulation. The Celotex Corporation of Canada and the U.S. is what is involved in the bankruptcy due to asbestos in their product. Here is the info regarding the company involved in the lawsuit and italics throughout these quotes are mine:

 

"Celotex is a division of Phillip Carey Manufacturing Company. This company created industrial thermal insulation for pipes and boilers, mainly in the Northeastern and Midwestern parts of the country. The company mined the raw asbestos in Canada under one of its subsidiaries, and then the asbestos was shipped to the states for production. In June of 1967, the company restructured, and Rapid American took over the liabilities of the company. The company also sold off its contracting division to Brand Insulation and went on to manufacture industrial products containing asbestos. Through mergers in 1972, the company became known as Celotex, and the Quebec Asbestos Mining became Carey Canadian Mines.

 

Both Rapid American and Celotex were sued for asbestos-related injuries caused by Carey Products. Celotex took over for Rapid American, as the company itself never manufactured a product containing asbestos. However Celotex was one of the most aggressive companies on the legal defensive side. Many of the cases went to court and the losing ones were appealed.

 

"In 1972, Celotex and Carey Canada became part of the Jim Walter Corporation conglomerate. Some parts of the conglomerate had assets, but others like Celotex and Carey carried high liabilities with the asbestos legal issues. Celotex and Carey Canada ended up being spun off as independent businesses by the leveraged buyout firm Kohlberg, Kravis, & Roberts as a way to get out of asbestos lawsuits. There were numerous suits trying to stop the transactions, but they failed. Celotex and Carey Canada made a settlement matrix to cover cases, the highest payout being $5,000 for mesothelioma. Most of the cases refused to settle, and Celotex and Carey Canada ended up going bankrupt. A fund was created, but payouts are limited." http://www.asbestos.com/companies/celotex.php)

 

I cannot find a direct link between the company web site you provided and this info. When I do a search for Asbestos to the link you gave me it cones up null.

 

This paragraphs below are from the link you provided for Celotex:

"The Celotex Company of Great Britain started trading in 1925 from offices located in Australia House in The Strand, London. The business was a subsidiary of its parent company, the Celotex Corporation of America, and soon established itself as an importer of bagasse fiberboard insulation from the original Celotex manufacturing plant in Marrero in the state of Louisiana, America."

1930s

By the 1930s sales in the UK were sufficiently high to encourage the Celotex Corporation to open a manufacturing plant in the UK at Stonebridge Park. By 1937 the Celotex Company of Great Britain was firmly established in the UK and had commenced manufacture at its new plant.

1940s

Increasing demand during this decade led to a requirement to source bagasse from alternative sources. Eventually a long term agreement was settled whereby Caroni (part of the Tate & Lyle Group) would supply West Indian bagasse to Celotex Limited out of the sugar season.

In 1946 in a seemingly unrelated development a Mr. Jim Walter first started property development in the Tampa area of Florida. This would ultimately lead to the Jim Walter Corporation which went on to diversify into building materials, marble quarries, coal mining, and water pipelines."

 

 

The Jim Walters Corporate history says this in their time line:

1962: Jim Walter Corporation more than doubles in size through acquisition of Celotex Corporation, a manufacturer of fiberboard.

1987: A group of investors led by Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co, LP forms a new company, subsequently named Walter Industries, Inc., that takes Jim Walter Corporation private in a $2.4 billion leveraged buyout completed in January 1988.

1994: The Bankruptcy Court rules that the asbestos claimants cannot pierce the “corporate veil” separating Walter Industries, Inc. from its subsidiaries, so Walter Industries, Inc. is not liable for the asbestos claims. The plaintiffs appeal, and bankruptcy judge orders the two sides to reach a compromise. The case is settled with Walter Industries, Inc. putting $375 million into a trust fund for claimants.

 

Mr. Jim Walter's name and corporate information are found at both websites. It does not appear however that any asbestos related products were manufactured by Celotex for the Marine industry.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Wyn2joy

[starman]

Thank you for the link. (Rest of quote clipped for brevity)

 

A fascinating read -- a familiar tale of a big corporation trying to weasel its way out of its liabilities. At least some money got screwed out of them in the end. I only know them through using their building insulation panels which are widely favoured now because of increasingly demanding building regulations on insulation.