Victron Query...

[Nickhlx]

A query on how the Victron is meant to function and questions .....

 

I have a Victron 12/3000/120 and 16A feedthrough, with remote panel and potentiometer for adjustable current draw limit from the shore supply. The shore power distribution post on the pontoon has 4 outlets, consisting of one master RCCD and individual MCBs for each of the four outlet sockets, in the usual 16A blue connectors. There are no other boats plugged into our post.

 

I am fairly sure the boat is wired so that the mains sockets in the boat are energised from the shore supply, through the Victron, but current limited by the Victron, so that when e.g. I have a 10 amp device in action on the boat, and I set the Pot to limit draw to 5A, then 5A will come from the shore and 5A will come from the batteries with the combi inverting the "missing" 5 amps, and supplementing the mains...

 

I left the boat with the (DC powered ) heating on for 2 hr periods, three times a day, and a mains de-humidifier which takes approx 300 watts when running ( not sure of start up surge) also on for 2 hour periods, although probably not the same. I left the Victron set to "Charger only", so as not to allow the de-humidifier to work if mains supply was lost and flatten the batteries ( we had a significant water spill and I needed to dry the carpets out) All seemed to start up and work fine, but on returning to boat the next day, the mains had tripped and the battery charger was therefore not charging to replenish the ( albeit small) charge being taken by the Webasto ( still working) and had dropped from the normal 100% SOC to 97% .

 

On re-setting, and starting with the current limit at zero ( say 1 amp ), the Victron would not start charging - it was trying to, but cutting out - presumably not enough current available for the charger - on slowly turning the limit control up from "zero", it would eventually latch and start charging as it should. This was when the pot was indicating approx 8 amps, out of the 16 max. It seems that the Victron's charger section switch-on surge is quite significant, for a period perhaps not long enough to trip the shoreside MCB. Also possible is the Pot ( set at 8 amps) is not very accurate or calibrated. When on boost charge, and viewing the DC charging current being supplied, I noticed that the charge current was a "soft start", slowly rising from a few amps to the max, over approx 5 seconds .... I was able to vary this max with the pot - I left it with the Max charge around 30 Amps on boost, ( pot indicating "9" ) which I reckoned was only about 1.5 amps of AC current, so wouldn't trip it and I could restore the batts to 100% SOC and get them back to being on float ( Boat was pretty much dried out, so no de-humidifier on )

 

So, the questions...

 

1) Does the Victron need / take a significant start surge current that might trip a shore 5A MCB ? ( I believe that the Victron is in its default of 75% max

charge current on boost, i.e. 90 amps DC or approx 4.5 amps AC - I could set this to 60 amps / 50%, thereby limiting the charge and AC draw to 3 amps)

 

2) Is the Pot marking reasonably accurate or wildly inaccurate ?

 

3) Does limiting the max charging current with the Pot harm the Victron ?

 

4) Would it help to fit a soft-start device ( e.g a suitable NTC thermistor ) in the supply of the de-humidifier compressor motor to reduce stress on the shore

MCB when it was also trying to charge on boost ?

 

Sorry this is a bit long-winded - it might be a queries for the manufacturer, who I guess will not be back 'till next week....

 

Thanks

 

Nick

Edited December 30, 2009 by Nickhlx

[Justme]

I have the same unit but I use the virtual remote panel via a laptop.

 

The only bit I can help you with is that the remote control pass through amp setting doers seem to be quite accurate.

 

I use it if I need to use a small genny whilst the big one is off line for any reason.

 

 

To get it to share the load you also need to put it into "assist" mode & set the assist boost factor.

[Nickhlx]

I have the same unit but I use the virtual remote panel via a laptop.

 

The only bit I can help you with is that the remote control pass through amp setting doers seem to be quite accurate.

 

I use it if I need to use a small genny whilst the big one is off line for any reason.

 

 

To get it to share the load you also need to put it into "assist" mode & set the assist boost factor.

 

 

Thanks for the info - I have the manual in "my other hand" , so will read through with your info in mind and get to understand it...

I have been promised the "dongle" so I too can program from the laptop, but it hasn't turned up yet, along with the boat manual !

 

Thanks,

 

Nick

[DHutch]

Can just confirm that the MCBs with the distobution post are rated at 16amps rather than anything lower? (presume it is this that tripped)

 

 

Daniel

[RichardN]

Can just confirm that the MCBs with the distobution post are rated at 16amps rather than anything lower? (presume it is this that tripped)

 

 

Daniel

 

Also it may be worth trying an mcb on another post. We had an issue at Packet Boat with our Victron tripping out our post mcb at anything over I think 8 amps. Tried another post, all worked fine. Usual argument, whose electrics are at fault. I got an electrican in to check our electrics, all ok [1[], mcb checked also ok but noted it was a different make to the others. Went back to the management, they got the mcb changed, all worked fine thereafter

 

Richard

 

[1] though I still don't understand this +120 -120V arrangement.

[nb Innisfree]

Also it may be worth trying an mcb on another post. We had an issue at Packet Boat with our Victron tripping out our post mcb at anything over I think 8 amps. Tried another post, all worked fine. Usual argument, whose electrics are at fault. I got an electrican in to check our electrics, all ok [1[], mcb checked also ok but noted it was a different make to the others. Went back to the management, they got the mcb changed, all worked fine thereafter

 

Richard

 

[1] though I still don't understand this +120 -120V arrangement.

 

If, when off shorepower, there is no E/N link on Victron output then 230v will be shared between live and neutral. If there is a link then there is 230v on live and zero v on neutral. Link is needed to enable a return path to RCD to enable it to trip if there is an earth leak. You have a choice of RCD or not, if RCD has failed you won't know until you grab live and get a 230v shock. If no E/N link therefore no RCD, touching live or neutral will give you 115v shock. Grabbing live and neutral, with or without RCD will give you 230v shock, tho in this scenario a functioning RCD has a chance of tripping and saving you, but you don't know if RCD is working or not, mine has recently failed with no indication. Safe practice is better than relying on an RCD. All this is assuming you are not connected to shorepower.

 

Does that help?

[RichardN]

If, when off shorepower, there is no E/N link on Victron output then 230v will be shared between live and neutral. If there is a link then there is 230v on live and zero v on neutral. Link is needed to enable a return path to RCD to enable it to trip if there is an earth leak. You have a choice of RCD or not, if RCD has failed you won't know until you grab live and get a 230v shock. If no E/N link therefore no RCD, touching live or neutral will give you 115v shock. Grabbing live and neutral, with or without RCD will give you 230v shock, tho in this scenario a functioning RCD has a chance of tripping and saving you, but you don't know if RCD is working or not, mine has recently failed with no indication. Safe practice is better than relying on an RCD. All this is assuming you are not connected to shorepower.

 

Does that help?

 

Yes, very helpful but I still don't quite understand ... Connecting live and neutral is easy, simple to do but can you enlighten me a bit further?

 

If I am on shorepower does the same apply or will having live and neutral connected mean that I trip out the shoreline mcb? Loaded question as when we first connected to shore power in the first marina that we moored we tripped out the post, an electrician looked at my setup and said take the link out as you only want that if you have a travelpower or other generator connected. I have always wondered if he was right or was it a start up transient from the Victron causing a slightly keen mcb to trip? Since then we have used shorepower with no issues in various places round the country, only having the odd issue with one post in Packet Boat.

 

There is an extra complication as I think that the Victron is meant to automatically bond live and neutral but it does not seem to do that - my 240V is unpolarised. One of my winter jobs is to talk to Victron about that as in the past I have found the lady on their technical support line to be pretty expert.

 

Incidentally if I hit the test button on my rcd it works fine. I have not carried out a real test and stuck a finger into something live. :-) Mind you is having an unpolarised supply safer as you only get 115V unless you manage to grab both live and neutral?

 

Richard

[nb Innisfree]

Yes, very helpful but I still don't quite understand ... Connecting live and neutral is easy, simple to do but can you enlighten me a bit further?

 

If I am on shorepower does the same apply or will having live and neutral connected mean that I trip out the shoreline mcb? Loaded question as when we first connected to shore power in the first marina that we moored we tripped out the post, an electrician looked at my setup and said take the link out as you only want that if you have a travelpower or other generator connected. I have always wondered if he was right or was it a start up transient from the Victron causing a slightly keen mcb to trip? Since then we have used shorepower with no issues in various places round the country, only having the odd issue with one post in Packet Boat.

 

There is an extra complication as I think that the Victron is meant to automatically bond live and neutral but it does not seem to do that - my 240V is unpolarised. One of my winter jobs is to talk to Victron about that as in the past I have found the lady on their technical support line to be pretty expert.

 

Incidentally if I hit the test button on my rcd it works fine. I have not carried out a real test and stuck a finger into something live. :-) Mind you is having an unpolarised supply safer as you only get 115V unless you manage to grab both live and neutral?

 

Richard

 

Our Victron Multiplus 24-3000-70 is a model designation no 17. I believe later models have auto E/N disconnect. Ours doesn't so I have fitted a 10A light switch to enable or disable E/N. If enabled it will trip shorepower RCD (not MCB) so you are relying on shorepower RCD.

 

It's debatable if unpolarised is safer by giving 'only' 115v on live or neutral, the point is unpolarised or polarised with RCD will still give you 230v if you grab live and neutral, but with RCD there is a chance some current wil trip shorepower RCD but only if RCD is working Just before Xmas we had a temporary mooring and plugged in to shorepower only to find it kept tripping their RCD, it turned out to be a faulty RCD on our boat. When I tested it it wouldn't trip, not with plug in tester or RCD button. So we are left with doubt over reliability of RCDs, personally I think if they can fail anytime without warning then RCDs can be unsafe and shouldn't replace safe practises We are always urged to fit RCD on boats but our experience flies in the face of that advice.

 

In future when off shorepower and on floating mains I will disable E/N bond and take a chance with 115v on live and neutral.

 

There is a recent thread on this somewhere

 

Edited to add; As a temporary measure I have bypassed our faulty RCD until I can get one to replace, we are now on 6A and 16A MCBs. The thing is do I replace RCD with master MCB or rely on a possibly iffy RCD?

Edited December 31, 2009 by nb Innisfree

[Nickhlx]

Can just confirm that the MCBs with the distobution post are rated at 16amps rather than anything lower? (presume it is this that tripped)

 

 

Daniel

 

 

No - they are 5A items hence the tripping problems...

 

Nick

 

Also it may be worth trying an mcb on another post. We had an issue at Packet Boat with our Victron tripping out our post mcb at anything over I think 8 amps. Tried another post, all worked fine. Usual argument, whose electrics are at fault. I got an electrican in to check our electrics, all ok [1[], mcb checked also ok but noted it was a different make to the others. Went back to the management, they got the mcb changed, all worked fine thereafter

 

Richard

 

[1] though I still don't understand this +120 -120V arrangement.

 

 

I did start to try and use another outlet, but really we should be on "number 1" as using the others would technically be nicking someone else's electricity... but I guess for a test it would be OK - I ran out of time when I realised what was happening, and didn't have sufficient "heaters" and other "loads" to test the current it could pass meaningfully... Job for the weekend....

 

I went back to the boat this afternoon to check all was OK and do some repair work to the Lockgate - the mains was still in circuit ( not tripped) so my understanding of the situation was sound - and the battery bank was back at (claimed) 100% SOC ( I must re-calibrate that) with all working as should be...

 

So remaining job is to see if any of the eight outlets on our pontoon are higher than 5 Amps, and apply for a transfer to that...

 

Does anyone know if good practice prohibits more than one phase on a pontoon ? - The pontoons only have 4 berths but 8 outlets, catering for whichever end your hook-up socket is I suppose... It may be that socket 1 on each tower is the same ( and on the same phase through the same meter, so I could make up a special cable to parallel them up ( after triple checking with the owners and ensuring that there is no voltage between "L1" and "L2"....

 

Thanks

 

Nick

Edited December 31, 2009 by Nickhlx

[soldthehouse]

Our Victron Multiplus 24-3000-70 is a model designation no 17. I believe later models have auto E/N disconnect. Ours doesn't so I have fitted a 10A light switch to enable or disable E/N. If enabled it will trip shorepower RCD (not MCB) so you are relying on shorepower RCD.

 

It's debatable if unpolarised is safer by giving 'only' 115v on live or neutral, the point is unpolarised or polarised with RCD will still give you 230v if you grab live and neutral, but with RCD there is a chance some current wil trip shorepower RCD but only if RCD is working Just before Xmas we had a temporary mooring and plugged in to shorepower only to find it kept tripping their RCD, it turned out to be a faulty RCD on our boat. When I tested it it wouldn't trip, not with plug in tester or RCD button. So we are left with doubt over reliability of RCDs, personally I think if they can fail anytime without warning then RCDs can be unsafe and shouldn't replace safe practises We are always urged to fit RCD on boats but our experience flies in the face of that advice.

 

In future when off shorepower and on floating mains I will disable E/N bond and take a chance with 115v on live and neutral.

 

There is a recent thread on this somewhere

 

Edited to add; As a temporary measure I have bypassed our faulty RCD until I can get one to replace, we are now on 6A and 16A MCBs. The thing is do I replace RCD with master MCB or rely on a possibly iffy RCD?

I tale my hat off to you guys, I have a helicopter pilots license so I thought I was clever but I havent a clue what you are on about. Happy new year

[Nickhlx]

I tale my hat off to you guys, I have a helicopter pilots license so I thought I was clever but I haven't a clue what you are on about. Happy new year

 

I have a hot-air balloon license ( lapsed) but, currently, ( ho ho ho) I am trying to get my electrics sorted - I think anyone can do it if they understand it and work at it for enough hours though...

 

I think "clever" is managing to be the last to be made redundant, which I was no good at, so do everything for myself now ( and can't get sacked ! )

 

Nick

[ditchcrawler]

No - they are 5A items hence the tripping problems...

 

Nick

 

 

snip

 

Does anyone know if good practice prohibits more than one phase on a pontoon ? - The pontoons only have 4 berths but 8 outlets, catering for whichever end your hook-up socket is I suppose... It may be that socket 1 on each tower is the same ( and on the same phase through the same meter, so I could make up a special cable to parallel them up ( after triple checking with the owners and ensuring that there is no voltage between "L1" and "L2"....

 

Thanks

 

Nick

Not a good idea making up a lead with 2 plugs and one socket

[soldthehouse]

I have a hot-air balloon license ( lapsed) but, currently, ( ho ho ho) I am trying to get my electrics sorted - I think anyone can do it if they understand it and work at it for enough hours though...

 

I think "clever" is managing to be the last to be made redundant, which I was no good at, so do everything for myself now ( and can't get sacked ! )

 

Nick

Mine too, lapsed that is, good luck with all that electrickery its an area or unexplored territory ive left for my retirement!

[Nickhlx]

Not a good idea making up a lead with 2 plugs and one socket

 

No - agree - I'll make a spare in case I need it

 

I'll use two fixed plugs and two cable sockets so that there is no possibility of any live pins, and all appropriately fused too ....

 

Hopefully it won't come to that and I'll be able to have a 16A MCB installed

 

Thanks for the concern,

 

Nick

[ditchcrawler]

No - agree - I'll make a spare in case I need it

 

I'll use two fixed plugs and two cable sockets so that there is no possibility of any live pins, and all appropriately fused too ....

 

Hopefully it won't come to that and I'll be able to have a 16A MCB installed

 

Thanks for the concern,

 

Nick

Well I started an apprenticeship as an electrician in 1963 and gave up in 1999 and still cant work out how you will do that? But it is New Years Eve.

[Biggles]

Just a thought....... I have a big mig welder on single phase. The draw is low(ish) on run but on spark up its megga. Knowing there is a big transformer or 2 in a big inverter like you have as in a mig welder.

 

Now. There are different ratings of MCB type 'B' which is standard and type 'C' which is industrial, i.e. will take heavier and repeated start-up loads. See if your marina will put a type 'C' in or allow you to. It might solve your tripping problems.

 

Biggles

[nb Innisfree]

I have a hot-air balloon license ( lapsed) but, currently, ( ho ho ho) I am trying to get my electrics sorted - I think anyone can do it if they understand it and work at it for enough hours though...

 

I think "clever" is managing to be the last to be made redundant, which I was no good at, so do everything for myself now ( and can't get sacked ! )

 

Nick

 

Correct, it's not being clever it's being relentless. Anyone can understand anything if they give it enough time.

 

Or some have better ways of spending their time

[Nickhlx]

Just a thought....... I have a big mig welder on single phase. The draw is low(ish) on run but on spark up its megga. Knowing there is a big transformer or 2 in a big inverter like you have as in a mig welder.

 

Now. There are different ratings of MCB type 'B' which is standard and type 'C' which is industrial, i.e. will take heavier and repeated start-up loads. See if your marina will put a type 'C' in or allow you to. It might solve your tripping problems.

 

Biggles

 

 

Thanks for the reminder - I need to have a look and see what's in there at the moment - not quite sussed how the pontoons are wired as there is also a bigger box on the "shore" that seems to distribute to two or 3 pontoons... Anyway, the Marina manager seems a good sort so will chat him up when I get a chance...

 

Nick

[RichardN]

Our Victron Multiplus 24-3000-70 is a model designation no 17. I believe later models have auto E/N disconnect. Ours doesn't so I have fitted a 10A light switch to enable or disable E/N. If enabled it will trip shorepower RCD (not MCB) so you are relying on shorepower RCD.

 

It's debatable if unpolarised is safer by giving 'only' 115v on live or neutral, the point is unpolarised or polarised with RCD will still give you 230v if you grab live and neutral, but with RCD there is a chance some current wil trip shorepower RCD but only if RCD is working Just before Xmas we had a temporary mooring and plugged in to shorepower only to find it kept tripping their RCD, it turned out to be a faulty RCD on our boat. When I tested it it wouldn't trip, not with plug in tester or RCD button. So we are left with doubt over reliability of RCDs, personally I think if they can fail anytime without warning then RCDs can be unsafe and shouldn't replace safe practises We are always urged to fit RCD on boats but our experience flies in the face of that advice.

 

In future when off shorepower and on floating mains I will disable E/N bond and take a chance with 115v on live and neutral.

 

There is a recent thread on this somewhere

 

Edited to add; As a temporary measure I have bypassed our faulty RCD until I can get one to replace, we are now on 6A and 16A MCBs. The thing is do I replace RCD with master MCB or rely on a possibly iffy RCD?

 

Thank you, very clear.

 

Happy New Year. I am off to see who wants to chance the bottle of scorpion vodka we have in the cupboard......

 

Richard

[Biggles]

Thanks for the reminder - I need to have a look and see what's in there at the moment - not quite sussed how the pontoons are wired as there is also a bigger box on the "shore" that seems to distribute to two or 3 pontoons... Anyway, the Marina manager seems a good sort so will chat him up when I get a chance...

 

Nick

 

 

Almost certainly type 'B'. My bet is type 'C' will cure your problem. I bet if you changed it if you can they would not notice.

 

Biggles