Not under lock and quay

[Boaty Jo]

Hope they don't rob the bank

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8422433.stm

[OldGoldy]

Hope they don't rob the bank

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8422433.stm

 

Bring it on! I firmly believe that we should have prisoners doing all manner of 'community work' automatically

as part of their sentence a la US chain gangs.

 

Don't start me off on the luxuries they have in the nick - they are supposed to be punished for their deeds.

[bottle]

Stand by for incoming.

 

I was informed by those in the know that,

 

'Prisoners are not in gaol for punishment, the punishment is that their liberty has been removed'

 

I agree that 'community work' may be a good thing, it may also rehabilitate them into the community.

 

I also believe that better support should be given when they are released.

[carlt]

Stand by for incoming.

Not from me.

 

I would much rather see a person released back into society, rehabilitated and helped not to offend again, than someone embittered and "educated" by fellow inmates to commit crime more effectively.

 

Then again, when assaulted by teachers, as a means of "discipline" my response was always "is that all you've got?".

[Guest]

Not from me.

 

I would much rather see a person released back into society, rehabilitated and helped not to offend again, than someone embittered and "educated" by fellow inmates to commit crime more effectively.

 

Then again, when assaulted by teachers, as a means of "discipline" my response was always "is that all you've got?".

 

Totally agree - we had a mini crime wave over a few days round these parts that turned out to be down to one particular guy who had just been released from prison.

 

He's now back inside and guess what the crime wave has ceased... can't think of anything being in prison has achieved for him or the local community.

[Bat & Frog]

Not from me.

 

I would much rather see a person released back into society, rehabilitated and helped not to offend again, than someone embittered and "educated" by fellow inmates to commit crime more effectively.

 

Then again, when assaulted by teachers, as a means of "discipline" my response was always "is that all you've got?".

 

 

Totally agree, give them the skills and confidence to support themselves and they are less to reoffend, and society gets something useful back.

[Laurie Booth]

All prison does is protect us from the criminals, it should do more.

[johnjo]

Bloody hell, this almost sounds like common sense, surely no one from the goverment can be involved in all this.

Edited December 20, 2009 by johnjo

[John Orentas]

A strangely liberal bunch of replies, where's all the usual, "I would hang the lot of them".. Must be the season of the year.

[Guest]

A strangely liberal bunch of replies, where's all the usual, "I would hang the lot of them".. Must be the season of the year.

 

 

Indeed peace n goodwill n all that.

 

(Hang 'em in the New Year......... )

[Chertsey]

Wasn't there a very positive precedent for this with the Upper Avon restoration? Seems a shame it's taken forty years to get round to trying it again.

[Bob the welder]

Bring it on! I firmly believe that we should have prisoners doing all manner of 'community work' automatically

as part of their sentence a la US chain gangs.

 

Don't start me off on the luxuries they have in the nick - they are supposed to be punished for their deeds.

luxuries . had the job of fixing tv brakets in all the cells at my local nik. bob.

[n.b.Goldie]

Stand by for incoming.

 

I was informed by those in the know that,

 

'Prisoners are not in gaol for punishment, the punishment is that their liberty has been removed'

 

I agree that 'community work' may be a good thing, it may also rehabilitate them into the community.

 

I also believe that better support should be given when they are released.

 

(My bold and Italics applied to the above post)

It is wholly right and proper that prisoners are 're-educated'/'re-habilitated' to help them avoid re-offending. However, I believe that simple removal of liberty is not in itself sufficient punishment, offenders should be sent to prison FOR punishment not AS punishment. It goes without saying that any such punishment should be unpleasant without being inhumane.

 

Ditchdabbler

 

Edited to add: I think the old Soviet Union was onto something when they sent serial offenders to psychiatric hospitals on the basis that to offend against society is to offend against oneself (i.e. self-harming) and is therefore a 'mental illness'.

Edited December 20, 2009 by ditchdabbler

[kbarber]

<snip>

 

Ditchdabbler

 

Edited to add: I think the old Soviet Union was onto something when they sent serial offenders to psychiatric hospitals on the basis that to offend against society is to offend against oneself (i.e. self-harming) and is therefore a 'mental illness'.

That is to use psychiatric/psychological treatment for political ends (political emphatically with a small p - relating to society) and in my view is abusive. Psychological work is to help a person become their individual self, not bend themselves to uniformity (or - as per current rhetoric - restore them as cheaply as possible to being economically active).

[kbarber]

Stand by for incoming.

 

I was informed by those in the know that,

 

'Prisoners are not in gaol for punishment, the punishment is that their liberty has been removed'

 

I agree that 'community work' may be a good thing, it may also rehabilitate them into the community.

 

I also believe that better support should be given when they are released.

British Rail in the early 1990s was a leader in working with the Prison Service to help re-integrate prisoners into society. There had to be safegurds of course - depending on the crime, certain people would be steered away from certain areas of work. The initiative was driven by a handful of dedicated people who piggy-backed it onto their work as recruitment officers (and in some cases put their money where their mouth was, to good effect). And it worked brilliantly for as long as it lasted, the railway gained some excellent staff and a number of prisoners - who had done their time, it must be said - became useful - indeed valuable - members of society. I know a charity was set up to continue the work after privatisation but sadly I'm not sure what's happened to it since, a pity as it must've saved the country many thousands of pounds by ensuring that, rather than re-offending, people were able to earn their own living and contribute to society.

[n.b.Goldie]

That is to use psychiatric/psychological treatment for political ends (political emphatically with a small p - relating to society) and in my view is abusive. Psychological work is to help a person become their individual self, not bend themselves to uniformity (or - as per current rhetoric - restore them as cheaply as possible to being economically active).

 

You might have a point, is it not what our government is aiming to do with getting people off disability benefit and back into work?

[jelunga]

British Rail in the early 1990s was a leader in working with the Prison Service to help re-integrate prisoners into society. There had to be safegurds of course - depending on the crime, certain people would be steered away from certain areas of work. The initiative was driven by a handful of dedicated people who piggy-backed it onto their work as recruitment officers (and in some cases put their money where their mouth was, to good effect). And it worked brilliantly for as long as it lasted, the railway gained some excellent staff and a number of prisoners - who had done their time, it must be said - became useful - indeed valuable - members of society. I know a charity was set up to continue the work after privatisation but sadly I'm not sure what's happened to it since, a pity as it must've saved the country many thousands of pounds by ensuring that, rather than re-offending, people were able to earn their own living and contribute to society.

 

I think Pete Waterman benefited from this somewhat earlier in the days of steam trains.

[carlt]

I think Pete Waterman benefited from this somewhat earlier in the days of steam trains.

What was he in for?

 

Crimes against the Music Industry?

[Hairy-Neil]

What was he in for?

 

Crimes against the Music Industry?

 

Chrimes against humanity even....

[GRPCruiserman]

What was he in for?

 

Crimes against the Music Industry?

 

Hey; I liked a lot of his music in it's day; had very large speakers in those days and the base really got them moving. It was a 'must' to record 'The Hit Man and Her' in the middle of the night then watch it the following morning.

 

Apologies for being off topic.

 

It could, on a more serious note (no pun!!) be a very good idea to use prisoners to repair the canal system; a solution needs to be found for the governments effective 'abandonment' of the canal system in an attempt to save money; and if it could keep licence fee increases under control, I may be tempted back on to the canal one day. I do miss it so.

 

I'm all in favour of it, it's a win-win situation. The canals get repaired, the goverment saves money paying people to do it, the prisoners learn new skills and hopefully become more positive towards society; no one can loose!!

 

What I may suggest is that the experience and expertese of the organisers of 'The Waterway Recovery Group' could be put to good use here; they have much experience in training and managing people who have no knowledge of repair and construction techniques and are able to organise them in to safe and productive working parties.

 

Surely by way of recognition, some top level WRGies could be paid a reasonable salary to manage a program of this kind and with them and prison officers to keep control, some very productive repairs, and indeed restoration, work could be carried out..

 

Just a thought.

[mayalld]

Hey; I liked a lot of his music in it's day; had very large speakers in those days and the base really got them moving. It was a 'must' to record 'The Hit Man and Her' in the middle of the night then watch it the following morning.

 

Apologies for being off topic.

 

It could, on a more serious note (no pun!!) be a very good idea to use prisoners to repair the canal system; a solution needs to be found for the governments effective 'abandonment' of the canal system in an attempt to save money; and if it could keep licence fee increases under control, I may be tempted back on to the canal one day. I do miss it so.

 

I'm all in favour of it, it's a win-win situation. The canals get repaired, the goverment saves money paying people to do it, the prisoners learn new skills and hopefully become more positive towards society; no one can loose!!

 

Apart from the people who are currently in paid employment repairing canals, of course.

[Chertsey]

Apart from the people who are currently in paid employment repairing canals, of course.

But most if not all of them would never have been restored in the first place without the use of unpaid labour. Are you saying we should put a stop to volunteers working on the canals in order to protect the jobs of the paid workers? Surely, whatever would be the case in an ideal world, in the world as it is there will never be enough money to pay people wages for all the work that needs to be done. A scheme using prisoners would at least create some paid posts, on top of any other benefits it may bring.

[mayalld]

But most if not all of them would never have been restored in the first place without the use of unpaid labour. Are you saying we should put a stop to volunteers working on the canals in order to protect the jobs of the paid workers? Surely, whatever would be the case in an ideal world, in the world as it is there will never be enough money to pay people wages for all the work that needs to be done. A scheme using prisoners would at least create some paid posts, on top of any other benefits it may bring.

 

Not at all.

 

What I am saying is that in the current financial climate, the introduction of unpaid labour could, rather than providing an additional labour force, result in a reduction in the paid staff.

 

I think this could be a good idea, but it should come with safeguards. Any organisation that wishes to avail itself of free prison labour would have to agree to maintain its paid workforce (both directly employed and subcontract) at the same levels as previously, and any reduction in the paid workforce would result in swingeing reductions in the unpaid workforce.

[cotswoldsman]

Not at all.

 

What I am saying is that in the current financial climate, the introduction of unpaid labour could, rather than providing an additional labour force, result in a reduction in the paid staff.

 

I think this could be a good idea, but it should come with safeguards. Any organisation that wishes to avail itself of free prison labour would have to agree to maintain its paid workforce (both directly employed and subcontract) at the same levels as previously, and any reduction in the paid workforce would result in swingeing reductions in the unpaid workforce.

 

Dave I agree with you 100% the bit that worries me and would be difficult to monitor is if they take on extra work that they would have employed extra people for and use the unpaid labour instead.

[kbarber]

You might have a point, is it not what our government is aiming to do with getting people off disability benefit and back into work?

Precisely (part of) my point; Layard's focus is purely on economic benefit.