Batteries (again...)

[Ermenilda]

The way you've drawn it, it is fundamentally flawed in every way.

 

You have put the capacitor in series with the charging path. The left-hand side goes up to a high positive voltage, the right hand side stays clamped at +12. Nothing then happens (except perhaps that the alternator explodes) until you switch the engine off. Then the left hand side goes to zero, and the right hand side goes to a high negative voltage. No current flows of course.

 

Net result, the batteries don't get charged at all. Is that a big enough flaw for you?

 

hmmm... not really flawed in every way then really is it... I admire your persistance to dismiss this idea outright and your unwillingness to accept new ideas! the earth IS flat!!! you are totally right about the incorrect placement of the capacitor and what a fool I am to have missed that - I also did not put any of the Negative wiring in did I but it is only supposed to be a sketch - It is not yet ready to be submitted to the IEEE or patent office just yet...

 

how about this?

 

 

I don't know how the volatge limiter should be placed as I am not au fait with such a device (but by continuing on this path of submitting my proposal and receveiving hostile/non hostile feedback perhaps this too will be corrected?)

[Keeping Up]

The slightly broader principle of using an additional storage device to extract additional energy from an alternator once the main batteries have reached their acceptance phase, may merit some consideration - although I suspect that the most efficient way to do this is probably to use a 12 volt storage device - ie simply to have a bigger battery

[Gibbo]

I am now 100% convinced that someone is having a laugh.

 

No one is this daft.

[mikevye]

I am now 100% convinced that someone is having a laugh.

 

No one is this daft.

 

Think yer right, I've PMd Steve at Elecsol and he's bouncing so we might find out soon.

[MoominPapa]

Think yer right, I've PMd Steve at Elecsol and he's bouncing so we might find out soon.

Maybe now is time to get out my broken record and say again that I have a ten year old bank of 220Ah Elecsols which still have about half their original capacity intact.

 

MP.

[Ermenilda]

I am now 100% convinced that someone is having a laugh.

 

No one is this daft.

 

what? obviously I am in your opinion

 

Think yer right, I've PMd Steve at Elecsol and he's bouncing so we might find out soon.

 

what? what does my idea have to do with Elecsol? the initial post was about Elecsols and still is but why the above prompted you to contact Steve when you never did before (but I wish you had) I don't know?

 

what am I having a laugh about? who's steve? I thought it was a bloke called mike at Elecsol - might be wrong - but yeh - be happy to actually TALK to someone at elecsol rather than being hung up on all the time! PLEASE DO GET IN TOUCH STEVE! I'm the bloke who purchased the 2 X 220Ah batteries that you won't give me an invoice for and keep hanging up on all the time!

 

I'm only suggesting an idea based on what I know about batteries and how they behave - Gibbo - you've told me that it won't achieve anything - you haven't once said that it is flawed (Keeping Up did - and I corrected my circuit diagram - he hasn't said it is flawed anymore and now seems to agree that it will work in principal but why not just use... a battery! becuase a battery takes a long time to charge - a capacitor doesn't - isn't this how you move things on?) you just think it is stupid and you've dismissed me as an incompetent (I am just replying to your other post about my giraffe (?) so I'll leave the details on there) so you've got your head stuck in the sand (ostrich)

 

so once again - you have NOT said that it is flawed - only that in your opinion and with an equal state battery bank it will achieve absolutely precisley NOTHING other than to waste energy as heat from the diodes

 

so what??

 

turn up the voltage limiter to compensate for this

 

anyway - obviously you've made your mind up that I am nothing short of an incompetent stupid fool wasting everyones time and it is now time to bring in the Elecsol heavies to sort me out - hahah bring it on!

 

such a shame to see such an approach from people that obvioulsy have an abundance of knowledge on the subject...

 

I think others who are less knowledgeable/in the Gibbo gang/don't want to look an arse are refraining from commenting - again - a great pity I think in an open forum

[mikevye]

Is ermenilda an anagram of pirate?

[Ermenilda]

Maybe now is time to get out my broken record and say again that I have a ten year old bank of 220Ah Elecsols which still have about half their original capacity intact.

 

MP.

 

wow! on every level wow!

 

I applaud you for having had a battery bank for 10 years so I know now that this IS achievable and the idea of chucking out batteries every couple of years is ridiculous

 

secondly - 10 year old you say?

 

well - from what I have learnt it is 'common' in the battery industry for manufacturers to produce good batteries initially but over time and with increasing raw material costs etc. over the years the quality/amount of lead etc. goes down but they keep the same label and marketing bumpf on the battery!

 

so could it be that you 'got em when they were good'?

 

10 years - really well done!

 

Posted Today, 02:27 PM

Is ermenilda an anagram of pirate?

 

arrrggghhhh me hearties yer might be right where/who's this bouncing Steve then?

[MoominPapa]

wow! on every level wow!

 

I applaud you for having had a battery bank for 10 years so I know now that this IS achievable and the idea of chucking out batteries every couple of years is ridiculous

 

secondly - 10 year old you say?

 

well - from what I have learnt it is 'common' in the battery industry for manufacturers to produce good batteries initially but over time and with increasing raw material costs etc. over the years the quality/amount of lead etc. goes down but they keep the same label and marketing bumpf on the battery!

 

so could it be that you 'got em when they were good'?

 

10 years - really well done!

I can't claim credit for most of the life - I've had the boat for two years, but I have the receipt for the batteries from 1999. For five years before we bought Melaleuca it was a liveaboard with shore power, so I suspect the bats spent most of that time on trickle charge. I just try and stick to the principle that the batteries should be as fully charged as possible for as much of the time as possible.

 

I don't know if you are right about the quality decreasing over time, but I'm very wary of replacing "like with like" because the current Elecsol range seems to be maintenance free and can't be topped up. Given the amount of water the existing ones get through, that would be a big problem.

 

On the other hand, the battery stowage arrangements are built around the rather odd size/shape of the Elecsols, so getting something different may well be a pain.

 

MP.

[Gibbo]

But I did say this.............

 

And you completely failed to reply to the question.

 

Basically (and again this is going to sound rude) the idea is just so completely stupid that I wouldn't know where to start to even begin to get you to understand just how ridiclous it is.

 

Surely that is similar to saying "it is flawed"?

 

How you can think it can do anything to improve matters completely evades me and therefore I don't know what to say to explain why it won't.

 

Please explain to me how you think it can improve anything

 

 

I think you're having a laugh.

 

It has been explained to you why a capacitor will not work. I guess you didn't read that post either.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Gibbo

[smileypete]

I can't claim credit for most of the life - I've had the boat for two years, but I have the receipt for the batteries from 1999. For five years before we bought Melaleuca it was a liveaboard with shore power, so I suspect the bats spent most of that time on trickle charge. I just try and stick to the principle that the batteries should be as fully charged as possible for as much of the time as possible.

 

I don't know if you are right about the quality decreasing over time, but I'm very wary of replacing "like with like" because the current Elecsol range seems to be maintenance free and can't be topped up. Given the amount of water the existing ones get through, that would be a big problem.

The Elecsols of 10 years ago may well be different to todays, see this post (clicky) on another forum.

 

I can't understand how Elecsols claim to run at reduced SG of 1.250 but have the same capacity as other batteries that size, this post (clicky) may explain why .

 

I'd expect an 1.250 SG battery will have longer service life and some extra cycle life but with reduced capacity and longer charge times.

 

So altering the SG of an open cell battery to 1.250, may well give the performance old style Elecsols used to, in practice, but at a much reduced price.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Keeping Up]

I first bought a set of Elecsols around 1997. They lasted for 5 years and were excellent. Then I bought another set and they lasted 4 years. I suspect they are different construction now because nobody seems to be able to get a decent life out of them.

 

I calculate that the capacitor in Ermenilda's storage system, assuming the alternator could be safely run up to 36 volts without exploding and assuming that you would want to store maybe 100 Ampere-hours in it, would need to have a value of 10,000 Farads. Does anyone agree/disagree my figure? And has anybody ever seen a capacitor of that size?

[Gibbo]

I calculate that the capacitor in Ermenilda's storage system, assuming the alternator could be safely run up to 36 volts without exploding and assuming that you would want to store maybe 100 Ampere-hours in it, would need to have a value of 10,000 Farads. Does anyone agree/disagree my figure? And has anybody ever seen a capacitor of that size?

 

I'll agree the figure. I didn't get exactly the same number but it's in the same ballpark. It really depends on what you consider the lowest acceptable voltage to be.

 

But let's go with the figure of 10,000 farads (I actually got 13,000 farads)..........

 

With today's technology that's roughly 3,500 kilogrammes of capacitors................... Or 40 kilogrammes of battery.

 

The Elecsols of 10 years ago may well be different to todays, see this post (clicky) on another forum.

 

I can't understand how Elecsols claim to run at reduced SG of 1.250 but have the same capacity as other batteries that size, this post (clicky) may explain why .

 

I'd expect an 1.250 SG battery will have longer service life and some extra cycle life but with reduced capacity and longer charge times.

 

So altering the SG of an open cell battery to 1.250, may well give the performance old style Elecsols used to, in practice, but at a much reduced price.

 

I think that makes perfect sense.

 

It is true that they don't sulfate up as much as normal wet cells but for Elecsol to say they don't sulfate up at all is bollox.

 

The lower SG does certainly explain reduced sulfation. It also explains reduced grid/plate corrosion.

 

However in practice it doesn't really explain why they last no longer than normal cheapos and in some cases live a lot shorter lives.

[smileypete]

I now have a basic spreadsheet that suggests that two battery banks are slightly more economical than occasional long charges on a single battery bank, and require significantly less annual engine running hours.

 

Is there any way I can upload it so that others can see it and comment on my assumptions?

The deal maker/breaker may be the battery to battery charging, so could be worth trying it out in practice.

 

If done at a slow steady rate the Peukert losses from the battery supplying charge will be minimal, and the battery under charge will only gas a little as each cell gets up to full charge.

 

Would be worth knowing how many Ah it takes to get a battery from say 85% to 100% SoC (state of charge).

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited November 5, 2009 by smileypete

[Ermenilda]

it's late and I was saving my post for tommorow but couldn't resist posting what I just found - check this out from wikipedi ->

 

Discharge cycles

Due to the capacitor's high number of charge-discharge cycles (millions or more compared to 200–1000 for most commercially available rechargeable batteries) there are no disposable parts during the whole operating life of the device, which makes the device environmentally friendly. Batteries wear out on the order of a few years, and their highly reactive chemical electrolytes present a serious disposal and safety hazard. This can be improved by only charging under favorable conditions, at an ideal rate, and, for some chemistries, as infrequently as possible. Electric double-layer capacitors can help in this regard, acting as a charge conditioner, storing energy from other sources for load balancing purposes and then using any excess energy to charge the batteries only at opportune times.

 

[edit] Low internal resistance

Other advantages of electric double-layer capacitors compared with rechargeable batteries are extremely low internal resistance or ESR, high efficiency (up to 97-98%), high output power, extremely low heating levels, and improved safety. According to ITS (Institute of Transportation Studies, Davis, CA) test results, the specific power of electric double-layer capacitors can exceed 6 kW/kg at 95% efficiency [12]

 

[edit] Alternative energy sources

The idea of replacing batteries with capacitors in conjunction with novel alternative energy sources became a conceptual umbrella of the Green Electricity (GEL) Initiative [2], [3], introduced by Dr. Alexander Bell. One particular successful implementation of the GEL Initiative concept was a muscle-driven autonomous solution which employs a multi-farad electric double-layer capacitor (hecto- and kilofarad range capacitors are now available) as an intermediate energy storage to power a variety of portable electrical and electronic devices such as MP3 players, AM/FM radios, flashlights, cell phones, and emergency kits.[13] As the energy density of electric double-layer capacitors is bridging the gap with batteries, it is hoped that in the near future the automotive industry will start to deploy ultracapacitors as a replacement for chemical batteries.

 

I put the bolds in - had to resist putting the whole lot in bold!

[MoominPapa]

It is true that they don't sulfate up as much as normal wet cells but for Elecsol to say they don't sulfate up at all is bollox.

 

The lower SG does certainly explain reduced sulfation. It also explains reduced grid/plate corrosion.

 

However in practice it doesn't really explain why they last no longer than normal cheapos and in some cases live a lot shorter lives.

OK, so replacing my antique Elecsols with new ones when the time comes probably doesn't make sense.

 

How standard is the 223x223x513 size of the big Elecsols? Where can I get batteries which are are cheaper and/or better which will fit? The height and length are critical dimensions, the width less so.

 

MP.

[Gibbo]

it's late and I was saving my post for tommorow but couldn't resist posting what I just found - check this out from wikipedi ->

 

I put the bolds in - had to resist putting the whole lot in bold!

 

Interesting that much of what you quote was added to Wikipedia last night. Also interesting that much of what you quote has now been changed and/or deleted.

 

Also interesting that the part where it says energy densities are achievable of 6kWh/kG (as opposed to all the rest of the article which quotes around 30Wh/kG - ie 200 times less) is referenced by a reference that states no such thing.

 

Wiki isn't an encyclopedia. It is a collection of made up opinions.

 

Of course, some people would argue that if Wiki says so, then it must be true.

 

OK, so replacing my antique Elecsols with new ones when the time comes probably doesn't make sense.

 

How standard is the 223x223x513 size of the big Elecsols? Where can I get batteries which are are cheaper and/or better which will fit? The height and length are critical dimensions, the width less so.

 

MP.

 

I dunno!

 

Something tells me that that size is a pretty standard size actually. But I can't find a reference.

[MoominPapa]

Something tells me that that size is a pretty standard size actually. But I can't find a reference.

Partially answering my own question, I did find this and this which would seem to validate the theory that "Leisure" batteries are just truck batteries with 50% added to the price.

 

MP.

[smileypete]

OK, so replacing my antique Elecsols with new ones when the time comes probably doesn't make sense.

 

How standard is the 223x223x513 size of the big Elecsols? Where can I get batteries which are are cheaper and/or better which will fit? The height and length are critical dimensions, the width less so.

 

MP.

The catalogue linked to at the bottom of this page (clicky) gives type numbers and sizes for truck and leisure batts.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[MoominPapa]

The catalogue linked to at the bottom of this page (clicky) gives type numbers and sizes for truck and leisure batts.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Brilliant! Looks like what I need is type 629, which leads me to this which looks like a pretty good deal.

 

Thanks all.

 

MP.

[smileypete]

Brilliant! Looks like what I need is type 629, which leads me to this which looks like a pretty good deal.

I'd try a few local suppliers too, but check the capacity and that it can be topped up.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited November 6, 2009 by smileypete

[Ermenilda]

Give it up Gibbo - you're the one having a bl**din laugh and making yourself look the fool now

 

you are REFUSING to understand the point I am trying to make out of pure bloody mindedness - pathetic

 

I know full well what wikipedia is all about - I had no idea it was added last night and you are right in that some of it seems to have been edited out now - I do hope you are not trying to insinuate that I added it! (and I wouldn't suspect that you were the one that got the article edited would I?)

 

it was just something I posted off the cuff last night but I have since found lots of other info relating to the use of capacitors similar to this

 

I am only exploring what's out there - if you have a look around the net you will find plenty relating to this same idea - It is out there happening right now whether you and your stuck in your ways mind wishes to accept it or not!

 

You seem to have succeeded in turning a number of posts into pathetic tit for tat arguments which I never intended or wished to get into and on the whole really is not very productive or pleasant reading. I have tried to keep to the point and whilst evidentally I am not 'getting' what you are saying I am trying my best to understand as you are getting ruder and more arrogant by the post - your approach is not going to disuade me from free thinking but I must admit you are doing a damn good job of trying and doubtless are putting others off from posting - shame on you

[WotEver]

Also interesting that the part where it says energy densities are achievable of 6kWh/kG (as opposed to all the rest of the article which quotes around 30Wh/kG - ie 200 times less) is referenced by a reference that states no such thing.

 

Further, on this page it states "Conventional electrostatic capacitors provide less than 360 joules per kilogram of energy density, while capacitors using developing technologies can provide more than 2.52 kilojoules per kilogram" which is a lower figure still by an order of magnitude, unless they were confusing kJ and kW (1 kW = 1kJ/s).

 

Tony

[Keeping Up]

Partially answering my own question, I did find this and this which would seem to validate the theory that "Leisure" batteries are just truck batteries with 50% added to the price.

 

MP.

You may well be right - but no matter how hard I try, I can't see how the two links validate the theory. They show two batteries that are the same physical size but appear to have nothing else in common. Yes the leisure one is more expensive, but is there something that I'm missing which demonstrates that they are internally similar?

[MoominPapa]

You may well be right - but no matter how hard I try, I can't see how the two links validate the theory. They show two batteries that are the same physical size but appear to have nothing else in common. Yes the leisure one is more expensive, but is there something that I'm missing which demonstrates that they are internally similar?

 

The orthodoxy around here seems to be that leisure batteries don't last or work any better than cheap truck batteries, so internal differences (if they exist) are not relevant. Therefore the only advantage of the £210 battery over the £150 one is an extra 10Ah capacity. If the leisure battery will last longer, it could well be worth the extra money, but that "if" is the thing. Do I have that right, Gibbo?

 

MP.