Continous cruising in London area

[honey ryder]

I hope this post does not create any bad feeling, expecially befoe the start of the week.

 

Meand my partner are concidering getting a narrow boat and CC's in the London area.

 

 

 

I fully understand the CC rules with movement ever 14 days...

 

Under this rule is it legitimatly possible to travel from Tottenham to Alperton in the wembly area ??? Would this constiture continious cruising? or what sort of distance would be cool so not to be abusing the system.

 

Also I am unclear about the rule of returning to a 14 day visitor mooring... How often are you allow to return to them after leaveing? Or is it once per year on each visitor moorning site.

 

 

Everyone seems really anrgy on this site, about the lack of moorings. People seem to get even more pissed about over stayers... Which I can totally take on boat. However isnt everyone trying to get by in a really difficult situation with moorings....

 

I think you should stop arguing against each other and turn to the real problem which is brish waterways who do not provide anought moorings.

 

Surly is the answer not to provide more visitor moorings so everyone can enjoy the water ways???

I live in kings cross and walk on the canal nearly every day... Between camden and islington there is miles of tow path that could be converted into visitor space.... even an extra 20 spaces which could be easily facilitated for would help surely.

 

I dunno any advise or come back for this newbie would be great.

 

Thanks for the great fourm been reading some really interesting stuff on ere.

 

back to the question raised by the OP...

 

having cc'd for the past 2.5 years (marina bound for the other half year) I can say that I much preferred to cc. it was more fun.

BUT it was very hard work.

I was based between staines, kings langley and down the GU up to Harlow and hertford. I had planned on going up the stort to bishops stortford and also planned on heading up to leighton buzzard as well as down the oxford.

ALL of these places ARE commutable to the centre of london.

I changed my job so that it was possible to commute longer distances in. the problem I had was that I have/had a boyfriend whos job restricted us to where we could go.

this was one of my biggest bug bares.

I really think ccing in ONLY London is a ridiculous thing to suggest. Get thee to a nunnery!

it is possible to cc, over the duration of a year you can to do a cruise from one part of the country to another while still commuting to the same place of work.. its a work of genius with regards to logistics and also the work of the devil on your home life. You need to be prepared to get off your arse and commute long distances to comply with the rules.

or be one of the many many slacked assed people I saw as I passed through london, and they shuffle around. never really getting any benefit from having a boat, they float like stinking turds in the city. Making the place look untidy, claiming stretches of towpath for their parties and extra living space. and the crime? oh yes... don't talk to me about crime.

 

in short, DO IT. only those who do nothing, regret nothing.

[mayalld]

I think the problem is with people who hold views about people 'not paying there way'

 

Is that they are in fact jelous, that they have worked hard some crazy hours all there life, only to see there precious taxes plunders into banks and politicians pockets.

 

Live and let live, be happy for people that have found a way around this crap system and are trying to do things with there lives and better there self in what ever way.

 

they are all welcome to my income tax, rather them than paying my local MP 80 odd grand a year in wages.

 

So, finally we cut to the chase.

 

You aren't actually interested in being a CCer. You are interested in not paying for a mooring, and want to know what you can get away with.

 

If challenged about your disregard for the rules, you attempt to muddy the waters by accusing those who do play by the rules of being jealous, and trying to bring up other people whose sins are greater.

 

Doesn't wash sunshine.

 

Slowly but surely, fake continuous cruisers are killing the goose that laid the golden egg, and one day the real CCers will pay the price.

[tomsk]

So, finally we cut to the chase.

 

You aren't actually interested in being a CCer. You are interested in not paying for a mooring, and want to know what you can get away with.

 

If challenged about your disregard for the rules, you attempt to muddy the waters by accusing those who do play by the rules of being jealous, and trying to bring up other people whose sins are greater.

 

Doesn't wash sunshine.

 

Slowly but surely, fake continuous cruisers are killing the goose that laid the golden egg, and one day the real CCers will pay the price.

 

 

.

Edited October 4, 2009 by tomsk

[fender]

or be one of the many many slacked assed people I saw as I passed through london, and they shuffle around. never really getting any benefit from having a boat, they float like stinking turds in the city. Making the place look untidy, claiming stretches of towpath for their parties and extra living space. and the crime? oh yes... don't talk to me about crime.

 

Completely agree. I got really fed up being a cc'er on basically the same stretches as you have mentioned. I passed Thames Lock four to six time a year. Yet everytime I passed through Little Venice, Camden, on the way from the Thames to Hertford/BS I could see the same boats still around. I dont have a boat now thank goodness. I live nearby and can walk along the canal instead. Its no surprise to see who's hanging about. Basically the entire boating scene between Kensal Green and Victoria Park stays static with the same boats travelling within those points.

 

BW doesnt seem to do anything. Complain to BW and they dont seem to do anything. I've complained quite a few times. They dont want to know. Well now I dont care its not my problem. The amazing thing is that BW have increased the number of patrol officers, but despite phases in which the problems have eased slightly, there is no overall difference to say last year's bridge hoppers.

 

It seems that if one hangs about BW is prepared to ignore them, because of the constant persistence and the sometimes violent threats that they get from these boaters. And it seems to me that those who do genuinely CC get penalised more than those who stick about BECAUSE it is so much easier to 'punish' the least worst offenders, the 'nicest ones,' the ones who adhere to the rules more strictly.

 

I am sure there are solutions that will satisfy all parties to a certain extent (sadly there is no ideal solution that will resolve the problems)and I think BW (and those who perpertualy bang their drums about CC'ers) will have to be innovative if we are ever to see a better balance of boats using the canals around London.

[Chris Pink]

Widening the topic slightly;

 

what is it about recent times that means more and more people are living this way in London?

 

Given that the canals have never been closed and have changed very little in, say, the last 25 years, why is it that there are now so many boats that there is a problem?

 

Could it possibly be that the prices currently charged for moorings are too high for people to afford?

 

and/or that the prices charged for housing are too high for people to afford?

 

It's all very well, Mr Mayall, to just give your stock answer but it lacks any attempt at understanding the changes of recent times and as such doesn't really add to the debate.

[Lady Muck]

what is it about recent times that means more and more people are living this way in London?

I dunno, I know there are less squats than there used to be, some of the last really big ones have now been closed down, especially in the last few years. That could explain some of it. Private landlords are getting even more arsey, you are credit checked, you need references and a fat deposit, if you haven't got a full time job, you have kids or pets, for instance, then it gets very hard to find a place to rent. If you've been in a squat for decades then you've no chance of renting in the private sector, you'd fail the credit check and you wouldn't have the references. I guess people do it and their friends find out about it and they decide to do it too, I reckon theres many many reasons. It's kind of mushroomed all of a sudden, there used to be no boats up here, now there are dozens.

 

Given that the canals have never been closed and have changed very little in, say, the last 25 years, why is it that there are now so many boats that there is a problem?

It's only happened in the last 3 or 4 years, you used to be able to count the boats on your hands. I've only been on the water 3 years and I can't believe it myself. I do wonder what will happen if it continues to increase at the current rate. You can tell it's getting a bit busy because boaters are mooring in spots where you never used to see them before (next to noisy roads and dodgy areas). It's not just on the water either - we had someone trying to live up a tree here last winter. I've seen tents on the marsh and then we had 40 men trying to live under a railway arch in South Tottenham with no sanitation. Some boaters live a very basic way of life, small cabin cruiser, no heating, rough sleeping, almost. I don't call that getting away with anything, that's just existing.

 

Could it possibly be that the prices currently charged for moorings are too high for people to afford?

Of course they are. They are silly in London, ridiculous. Residential moorings are daft priced, leisure moorings are so expensive they are mostly full of liveaboards, you couldn't afford to keep a holiday boat on them unless you are very well off. That and there isn't any availability. How often do you see affordable moorings in London on Waterscape? They never come up available.

 

and/or that the prices charged for housing are too high for people to afford?

Many boaters I know don't want to be home owners, also landlords in London tend to be money grabbing, you pay £600 pcm for a tiny room, six weeks upfront and you never ever get your deposit back. You have no security of tenure on a boat but not much more in a London flat. I have friends in their forties who are onto their 20th address in a rented room or flat! I have been forced to move several times myself, it's not much fun!

I now have a lovely boat and a mooring for what it used to cost me to rent two rooms in a tatty house.

It's very telling that once we got up North on our cruise this summer (apart from Hebden bridge) there were barely any liveaboards at all, moorings or not. I'm not surprised there are so many boaters on the K and A as it's not cheap there either.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Lady Muck

[Morphyous]

Wots up with Victoria park???

 

I was moored at viccy park for two weeks having electrical work done on my boat.

My window was smashed by a rock and a week later 5 youths on bikes threw another rock

at my window, which fortunately didn't break this time. The tow path is like the M1 for

cyclists, runners and dog walkers and i was subject to contant ting tings, loud talking, barking etc

from 7 am to until dark.

You are welcome to my old spot if you like.

[fender]

Widening the topic slightly;

 

what is it about recent times that means more and more people are living this way in London?

 

THE OPENING UP OF THE TOWPATH TO CYCLISTS (USING TFL FUNDS) AND THE ECNOURAGEMENT OF WALKERS HAS INTRODUCED MORE PEOPLE TO THE WATERWAYS AND PEOPLE HAVE SEEN BOATS AS THE ANSWER TO THEIR ACCOMODATION PROBLEMS. THE MEDIA FOLLOW SUIT WITH THEIR GLORIOUS ACCOUNTS OF LIVING ABOARD A NARROWBOAT.

 

IN SHORT BW HAS SHOT ITSELF IN THE FOOT ON MANY LEVELS WITH ITS STUPID TOWPATH IMPROVEMENTS AND IT NEEDS TO REALISE THAT ITS MAINLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MESS.

[mayalld]

Widening the topic slightly;

 

what is it about recent times that means more and more people are living this way in London?

 

Given that the canals have never been closed and have changed very little in, say, the last 25 years, why is it that there are now so many boats that there is a problem?

 

Could it possibly be that the prices currently charged for moorings are too high for people to afford?

 

and/or that the prices charged for housing are too high for people to afford?

 

It's all very well, Mr Mayall, to just give your stock answer but it lacks any attempt at understanding the changes of recent times and as such doesn't really add to the debate.

 

Does "understanding the changes of recent times" help to solve the problem.

 

I would contend that it doesn't.

 

The problem that we have is that in some parts of the country, housing has become prohibitively expensive, leading to people seeing the canals as a cheaper option. The supply of suitable moorings is small, which has led the price of those moorings to increase (and in any case, there isn't sufficient supply to accomodate all those who want one). There, in a nutshell, I understand the changes!

 

The facts are that there is a limit to the extent to which the waterways can accomodate homes, and that in certain parts of the system that limit has been reached. Much as the supply of affordable flats in London is limited, the supply of residential boating space is limited. In either case the answer is to build more, but the economics don't tend to work, so who will invest?

 

If we wish the waterways in our major cities to continue to be available as waterways that visiting boaters can use, and can find a mooring for the night, we cannot continue along the path of ever more residential boats filling these waterways.

[Chris Pink]

If we wish the waterways in our major cities to continue to be available as waterways that visiting boaters can use, and can find a mooring for the night, we cannot continue along the path of ever more residential boats filling these waterways.

 

The laws of physics say these people have to be somewhere, so what do you suggest Dave?

 

 

 

It's very telling that once we got up North on our cruise this summer (apart from Hebden bridge) there were barely any liveaboards at all, moorings or not. I'm not surprised there are so many boaters on the K and A as it's not cheap there either.

 

On the Kennet and Avon there are addtional factors too - maybe they pertain in London, I don't know - once the 'I'm not doing another winter with you in that metal box' brigade have tried and left there are many who think that it is a good way to live on its own merits. Maybe they were driven to consider living afloat by the same overpricing of homes around Bath and Bradford-on-Avon but once there the benefits of community becomes one of the most attractive aspects, that and living in one of the most beautiful bits of countryside in the country.

 

And it would be a brave or foolhardy person who said these people do not have the right to do this.

 

That real sense of community is going to make it incredibly difficult for BW to move these people - if that is what it eventually comes down to.

[mayalld]

The laws of physics say these people have to be somewhere, so what do you suggest Dave?

 

Do the laws of physics demand that people have to be on the canals at all?

 

If they aren't going to cruise to other bits of the system, but simply shift enough to get away with it" then why have a boat at all?

[Chris Pink]

Do the laws of physics demand that people have to be on the canals at all?

 

If they aren't going to cruise to other bits of the system, but simply shift enough to get away with it" then why have a boat at all?

 

Perhaps because they like living on the water?

 

It's got to beat living in Peckham.

 

There have been people living on the water in London for centuries.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Chris Pink

[mayalld]

Perhaps because they like living on the water?

 

It's got to beat living in Peckham.

 

There have been people living on the water in London for centuries.

 

Exactly. People choose to do something because they like it, but the simple fact is that in many walks of life, it isn't possible for everybody who likes something to do it.

[Lady Muck]

The laws of physics say these people have to be somewhere, so what do you suggest Dave?

On the Kennet and Avon there are addtional factors too

 

Well, yeah, Hebden Bridge is famed for it's alternative culture isn't it? Ditto Hackney in London, so I guess it's not surprising that they've got big boater populations. Hippies like boats, I guess.

[Chris Pink]

Exactly. People choose to do something because they like it, but the simple fact is that in many walks of life, it isn't possible for everybody who likes something to do it.

 

how so?

 

Hippies like boats, I guess.

 

sssh.

[mayalld]

how so?

 

Because there is only so much canal for them to use.

 

As the canals in Central London reach saturation point with fake bona-fide navigators all trying to shuffle about between the prime mooring spots, and occasionally having to cruise out into the sticks to find a mooring, but returning within days to try again, we reach a situation where only those boats that are permanently based in the area have any real hope of getting a mooring, and visitors won't use these canals, because they know they won't be able to find a mooring.

[carlt]

Maybe it's time to start planting some rings, in the concrete bits in between moorings.

 

If more people populate these areas then they stop being "bandit land"

[Chris Pink]

Because there is only so much canal for them to use.

 

As the canals in Central London reach saturation point with fake bona-fide navigators all trying to shuffle about between the prime mooring spots, and occasionally having to cruise out into the sticks to find a mooring, but returning within days to try again, we reach a situation where only those boats that are permanently based in the area have any real hope of getting a mooring, and visitors won't use these canals, because they know they won't be able to find a mooring.

 

 

OK that's one perception of the issue - and for once, so we can discuss a wider issue, let's assume these are real bona fide navigators, ie they move to a different place every 2 weeks and leave definitions of the law alone.

 

We have a important principle of law in the UK, on which our freedoms are established, that anything that is not forbidden is allowed. So the boaters, problem or not, in London who stay within the law have every right to do what they do.

 

I do agree with you that one of the most important things about the management of the canal system is to allow passage of boats, ie there should be somewhere to stop when they get there.

 

So how do we arrive at a solution that 1. doesn't include a new law (DEFRA doesn't want one) 2. allows those freedoms that you might disagree with but do exist.

 

I have a lot of sympathy with Carl's view - that the population of the canals in London (and manchester, leeds, coventry et al) is to encourage a new vibrancy (Vibrancy is one of BW's favourite buzzwords so i thought i'd slot it in even though it's a bit....)

 

So come on Dave, find us a solution that fits the needs of all boaters.

 

Maybe it's time to start planting some rings, in the concrete bits in between moorings.

 

If more people populate these areas then they stop being "bandit land"

 

drill, chemical anchor, expanding ring bolt (in the side, assuming cables to be more that 100mm away from the edge).

 

voila, new mooring.

[tomsk]

Hippies LURRVE boats!!!

[Mac of Cygnet]

Well, yeah, Hebden Bridge is famed for it's alternative culture isn't it? Ditto Hackney in London, so I guess it's not surprising that they've got big boater populations. Hippies like boats, I guess.

 

I find it rather weird that you compare Hebden Bridge with Hackney! If you are referring to the 'Callis Community' west of Hebden Bridge, in fact only about half a dozen boats are lived on there - there are more liveaboards on the moorings at Sowerby Bridge, which is a totally different sort of town.

 

I find it very difficult to tell liveaboard boats from 'continuous' cruisers from boats which have been left for a while, when I'm passing through a strange area.

 

Mac

[Lady Muck]

I find it rather weird that you compare Hebden Bridge with Hackney! If you are referring to the 'Callis Community' west of Hebden Bridge, in fact only about half a dozen boats are lived on there - there are more liveaboards on the moorings at Sowerby Bridge, which is a totally different sort of town.

 

I find it very difficult to tell liveaboard boats from 'continuous' cruisers from boats which have been left for a while, when I'm passing through a strange area.

 

Mac

 

Yes I was referring to the Callis community in Hebden and comparing it to the Willows boating community in Hackney. Both communities contribute to the LILO (low impact life onboard) website and are about the same size as each other. I was quite interested to see what it was like in Hebden after being familiar with the one in Hackney. I haven't seen anything remotely similar on the rest of my travels this year, anywhere else.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Lady Muck

[Black Ibis]

14 days before having to move on? Luxury!

 

We 'continously cruised' (the term does not exist in EA legislation) the Cam and Ouse for 8 months through the winter where visitor moorings only allow you to stay for 48 hours, with no return for 7 days. And we kept to the rules pretty much all through that time, despite seeing many boats who didn't, and were never prosecuted

 

But it was very tough trying to do that and hold down a job. I woudn't advise anyone to do it.

 

It is, however, totally within EA rules, as long as you stick to the 48 hour/7 day thing. Whereas CCing in an around London is taking the piss, and its been done to the hilt. London is bulging at the seams with boats. But until BW get their act together and start enforcing it, there are always going to chancers.

[carlt]

...................And we kept to the rules pretty much all through that time, despite seeing many boats who didn't, and were never prosecuted

 

London is bulging at the seams with boats. But until BW get their act together and start enforcing it, there are always going to chancers.

So what you're saying is that, the number of "chancers" is proportional to the total number of boats.

 

Just like parking a car in a small town, compared to parking in London, really.

 

London is "bulging at the seams" with everything, compared to Cambridgeshire.

 

This is a peculiarity of big cities.

[Black Ibis]

So what you're saying is that, the number of "chancers" is proportional to the total number of boats.

 

Just like parking a car in a small town, compared to parking in London, really.

 

London is "bulging at the seams" with everything, compared to Cambridgeshire.

 

This is a peculiarity of big cities.

 

I'm not sure if they are really comparable, given that EA and BW regulations differ so much. Certainly during the summer we would have really struggled to continue doing what we did, with visitors on all the moorings. (Not that I have a problem with visitors using the visitor moorings, that's what they're for!)

 

Cambridge is also unique in that it has a larege stretch of waterside (30+ boats) which is totally free and unlicenced as no-one is prepared to take responsibility of it. So most 'chancers' are actually moored there, enjoying free, permanent residential moorings! ...

[Chris Pink]

Cambridge is also unique in that it has a larege stretch of waterside (30+ boats) which is totally free and unlicenced as no-one is prepared to take responsibility of it. So most 'chancers' are actually moored there, enjoying free, permanent residential moorings! ...

 

is that separate from the Council managed residential moorings?

 

Whereas CCing in an around London is taking the piss,

 

Why is this different from what you were/are doing?