Dead BMC engine

[Brucec]

Hi all,

My first post here so greetings to everyone.

I'm totally new to boats, and my first challenge is to sort out the BMC engine in my 60' narrowboat. I think it's a 1.8 but haven't been able to positively identify it yet. In any case the engine is basically dead and I'm wondering what my best option is. Rebuild or replace? And if the latter, what with?

 

Is there an alternative engine that I could drop in as a direct replacement? Or am I basically stuck with either this or another BMC in its place?

 

And if anybody could suggest a good place to get a rebuild done or source a recon engine at a sensible price it would be fantastic. I'm based in London.

 

Many thanks for any help anyone can give me.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Brucec

[Sir Nibble]

Hi all,

My first post here so greetings to everyone.

I'm totally new to boats, and my first challenge is to sort out the BMC engine in my 60' narrowboat. I think it's a 2.2 but haven't been able to positively identify it yet. In any case the engine is basically dead and I'm wondering what my best option is. Rebuild or replace? And if the latter, what with?

 

Is there an alternative engine that I could drop in as a direct replacement? Or am I basically stuck with either this or another BMC in its place?

 

And if anybody could suggest a good place to get a rebuild done or source a recon engine at a sensible price it would be fantastic. I'm based in London.

 

Many thanks for any help anyone can give me.

Tony Brooks will be along soon, take note of what he says. He is "the man" for your problem.

You've come to the right place. Welcome aboard.

[alan_fincher]

I think you need to supply more information, particularly what "dead" means.....

 

Seized - will not turn over ?

Turns over fine, but will not start ?

 

What do you already know.....

 

Is there fuel getting through ?

Do the heaters work ?

 

Etc, etc.

 

Also it's important to identify what you have, but if it's a BMC it is likely to be a 1.5, 1.8, 2.2 or 2.5 engine.

 

The two smaller sizes, (variants of the "B" series), are probably the more popular, and really the more suitable power wise, even in a 60 footer. People also do have the 2.2 and 2.5 "Taxi" engine, albeit in much less numbers - I'd argue it is rather too big for a narrowboat engine.

 

It's easy to Google pictures, particularly of the 'B' series engine, and identification should be easy, even between say a 1.5 and 1.8, which have completely differing arrangements for the injector pump.

 

Here is a 1500

 

 

and here an 1800

 

 

If there is still an engine number on your motor, it will definitely identify the type - again a Google will find sites that explain what the engine number signifies - I think that info is even in Wikipedia.

 

Some places like Calcutt Boats specialise in rebuilding BMCs, but again it's usually the B series for canal boat use.

 

Alan

 

EDITED TO SAY:

 

Ah I see you have "downgraded" your view of what it could be from a 2.2 to a 1.8, perhaps based on what I have posted ?

 

I'd say the 1.8 is probably the best option, with a wide user base, and several specialist able to supply many of the parts. It's generally a slightly newer engine than the 1.5, for which some parts seem to be getting a bit trickier, (but generally not impossible). The 1.5 and 1.8 make good narrow boat engines, so if it is basically sound, it should be worth throwing money at, rather than replacement.

Edited September 5, 2009 by alan_fincher

[Onewheeler]

A Beta 38 is pretty close to a drop in replacement for a BMC 1.8 (we did it a few years ago). It's actually slightly smaller, we just needed to move the engine bearers a little and our local engine man only charged a few £hundred to fit it and get the old one out (I did a lot of the preparation first).

 

You might be able to keep the gearbox, the PRM we have was a straight swap onto the '38 (and Beta even spayed it green to go with the engine). The torque and power characteristics are close enough that you won't need to re-prop and the Beta is quieter .

[Yoda]

Hi all,

My first post here so greetings to everyone.

I'm totally new to boats, and my first challenge is to sort out the BMC engine in my 60' narrowboat. I think it's a 1.8 but haven't been able to positively identify it yet. In any case the engine is basically dead and I'm wondering what my best option is. Rebuild or replace? And if the latter, what with?

 

Is there an alternative engine that I could drop in as a direct replacement? Or am I basically stuck with either this or another BMC in its place?

 

And if anybody could suggest a good place to get a rebuild done or source a recon engine at a sensible price it would be fantastic. I'm based in London.

 

Many thanks for any help anyone can give me.

 

There apparently is a conundrum here. I'm new to boat and my narrow boat-engine? I take that you have just bought a boat with a duff engine.

 

Well the first thing to do is start it and find out what is wrong. If the fuel has been sitting in the tank for too long, that is also a factor.

[the grinch]

it would have to be very dead for it not to turn over. i brought a boat from Thurmaston to Coventry via braunston on less than 3 of the 4 cylinders working once in less than 24 hours!

 

they are built like brick outhouses and are usually bullet proof

get a copy of calcutts manual (its on here, just do a search)

[David Schweizer]

Just in case it is a BMC 1.5 here is a photo for comparison:-

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/uploads/g..._16_2_21367.jpg

 

If your engine does need re-building, I can give you the name of someone who will do a better job than the outfits that advertise, and for less money. That photo is of my BMC 1.5 after it was re-built three years ago.

Edited September 5, 2009 by David Schweizer

[Brucec]

Thanks for the replies so far. OK here is further information as requested:

 

Thanks for your photos Alan. Based on those I would say it is the 1.8. Looks like it to me anyway. Not sure where I would look for the engine number but I'll try and find one later for a confirmed ID.

 

As for the state of the engine: it just about starts amid clouds of white smoke. I took it for a trial run yesterday just half a mile down the river and back and after a while it started pouring out clouds of acrid black smoke and cut out completely. The temp gauge isn't functioning but the engine appeared seriously overheated to me. There are obviously some fairly major problems as, although it will still just about start this morning, it is labouring heavily and it's impossible to raise the revs above a slow tickover. And it's very, very smokey. I suspect plenty of internal damage and would anticipate a full rebuild being necessary. It would be impossible to drive the boat anywhere with the engine in its current condition.

 

As for how I ended up owning a narrowboat with a duff engine, I'll leave that to your imaginations

 

I'm more interested in solutions than recriminations. The fact that the engine barely functions isn't a crisis as the boat doesn't ever have to move anywhere. It's just a problem I want to sort out as cheaply and painlessly as possible.

 

Thanks again everyone.

[David Schweizer]

Thanks for the replies so far. OK here is further information as requested:

 

Thanks for your photos Alan. Based on those I would say it is the 1.8. Looks like it to me anyway. Not sure where I would look for the engine number but I'll try and find one later for a confirmed ID.

 

As for the state of the engine: it just about starts amid clouds of white smoke. I took it for a trial run yesterday just half a mile down the river and back and after a while it started pouring out clouds of acrid black smoke and cut out completely. The temp gauge isn't functioning but the engine appeared seriously overheated to me. There are obviously some fairly major problems as, although it will still just about start this morning, it is labouring heavily and it's impossible to raise the revs above a slow tickover. And it's very, very smokey. I suspect plenty of internal damage and would anticipate a full rebuild being necessary. It would be impossible to drive the boat anywhere with the engine in its current condition.

 

As for how I ended up owning a narrowboat with a duff engine, I'll leave that to your imaginations

 

I'm more interested in solutions than recriminations. The fact that the engine barely functions isn't a crisis as the boat doesn't ever have to move anywhere. It's just a problem I want to sort out as cheaply and painlessly as possible.

 

Thanks again everyone.

It sounds as if the engine needs to be looked at by a competent engineer before making an assesment. It may not be as serious as it appears, lots of smoke can sometimes be no more than pump timing or injector problems, although we cannot rule out worn bores, which is a rather more expensive to rectify.

 

By the way the engine number on a BMC 1.5 can be found on the crankcase behind the dip stick, between the oil filter and the injector pump. I assume that it will be in a similar place on the 1.8.

Edited September 5, 2009 by David Schweizer

[Yoda]

Thanks for the replies so far. OK here is further information as requested:

 

Thanks for your photos Alan. Based on those I would say it is the 1.8. Looks like it to me anyway. Not sure where I would look for the engine number but I'll try and find one later for a confirmed ID.

 

As for the state of the engine: it just about starts amid clouds of white smoke. I took it for a trial run yesterday just half a mile down the river and back and after a while it started pouring out clouds of acrid black smoke and cut out completely. The temp gauge isn't functioning but the engine appeared seriously overheated to me. There are obviously some fairly major problems as, although it will still just about start this morning, it is labouring heavily and it's impossible to raise the revs above a slow tickover. And it's very, very smokey. I suspect plenty of internal damage and would anticipate a full rebuild being necessary. It would be impossible to drive the boat anywhere with the engine in its current condition.

 

As for how I ended up owning a narrowboat with a duff engine, I'll leave that to your imaginations

 

I'm more interested in solutions than recriminations. The fact that the engine barely functions isn't a crisis as the boat doesn't ever have to move anywhere. It's just a problem I want to sort out as cheaply and painlessly as possible.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

A bet, a game of cards, swapped for a duff girlfriend, payment of dues? What have you. Welcome anyway.

[Speedwell]

I'm more interested in solutions than recriminations. The fact that the engine barely functions isn't a crisis as the boat doesn't ever have to move anywhere. It's just a problem I want to sort out as cheaply and painlessly as possible.

The cheapest answer is usually to have a go yourself and, if it's going to be scrapped otherwise, there's not much to loose. Parts are fairy easy to come by. If that's not possible AMC Diesel (Thornycroft) supply modern engines which will fit in place of BMC engines - don't know what the price would be though.

I also bought a boat with a BMC 1800 which emitted copious black smoke, if revved, and the fault turned out to be a knackered camshaft so it would be worth checking that the valves are going up and down properly before spending money. The engine runs OK now but it cost over £1000 for parts back in 2003.

Arthur

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks for the replies so far. OK here is further information as requested:

 

Thanks for your photos Alan. Based on those I would say it is the 1.8. Looks like it to me anyway. Not sure where I would look for the engine number but I'll try and find one later for a confirmed ID.

 

As for the state of the engine: it just about starts amid clouds of white smoke. I took it for a trial run yesterday just half a mile down the river and back and after a while it started pouring out clouds of acrid black smoke and cut out completely. The temp gauge isn't functioning but the engine appeared seriously overheated to me. There are obviously some fairly major problems as, although it will still just about start this morning, it is labouring heavily and it's impossible to raise the revs above a slow tickover. And it's very, very smokey. I suspect plenty of internal damage and would anticipate a full rebuild being necessary. It would be impossible to drive the boat anywhere with the engine in its current condition.

 

As for how I ended up owning a narrowboat with a duff engine, I'll leave that to your imaginations

 

I'm more interested in solutions than recriminations. The fact that the engine barely functions isn't a crisis as the boat doesn't ever have to move anywhere. It's just a problem I want to sort out as cheaply and painlessly as possible.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

 

Well first of all check nothing is around the prop, The black smoke could just be overloading. Until I was sure the engine was nice and warm I would not be worrying about the white smoke for now.

 

Also check nothing has gone awry with the air cleaner - like a rag wrapping round it of the element collapsing.

 

No point in saying anything else until we know about the prop & air supply.

 

Allan - can I have royalties - I am sure they are the TVU engines.

[Sir Nibble]

Allan - can I have royalties - I am sure they are the TVU engines.

Wot? Is he ripping off your training aids?

[alan_fincher]

Wot? Is he ripping off your training aids?

I seem to recall Tony was offering at least one as a free give away to someone with a suitable Transit at some stage, so I perhaps rather wrongly assumed they were in the public domain already.

 

Yes, they are the TVU ones, systematically trashed by us students who didn't listen carefully enough to what the instructor had told us to do.

[Onewheeler]

If it were mine, the first thing I'd check is that the heaters are working and getting a good supply of electricity. They take a lot of current, and this might account for the poor starting / white smoke. My old BMC needed preheat even in the summer. Then check the valve clearances as it only takes a few minutes and could account for some of your symptoms. Have you got oil pressure?

[Brucec]

Thinking about your replies and will get my hands dirty tomorrow. Meantime I should just clarify that when the engine cut out last week amid black smoke this was not (just) coming from the exhaust but billowing gruesomely from the engine block itself. I have lots of experience of diesel engines in vehicles and am in no doubt at all that something bad happened. Possibly not terminal, but bad enough to suggest major repairs will be needed.

 

More to follow...

[RobinJ]

Thanks for your photos Alan. Based on those I would say it is the 1.8. Looks like it to me anyway. Not sure where I would look for the engine number but I'll try and find one later for a confirmed ID.

Yes the engine number is on a ledge just below the injectors.

As for the state of the engine: it just about starts amid clouds of white smoke. I took it for a trial run yesterday just half a mile down the river and back and after a while it started pouring out clouds of acrid black smoke and cut out completely. The temp gauge isn't functioning but the engine appeared seriously overheated to me. There are obviously some fairly major problems as, although it will still just about start this morning, it is labouring heavily and it's impossible to raise the revs above a slow tickover. And it's very, very smokey. I suspect plenty of internal damage and would anticipate a full rebuild being necessary. It would be impossible to drive the boat anywhere with the engine in its current condition.

Doesn't sound as though it was too bad!

You don't mention any noises which is good, the white smoke could be just steam, did this continue or stop after a while?

Assuming you haven't found a fishing net on the prop:-

Black smoke signifies incomplete combustion and lack of power suggests a fuel problem.

Depending on whether it has been left a long time, could be bad fuel, clogged filters, dirty injectors or (because of state of oil) sticking valves, tappets etc.

You need to familiarise yourself with the engine, check the oil, fuel filters etc., check water, header tank? look at signs of leaks?

The overheating may just be gunge settling in the pipes and skin tank? (may need flushing) - Is it raw water cooled, have you got an inlet filter that needs cleaning?

[alan_fincher]

Yes the engine number is on a ledge just below the injectors.

Although sometimes they are either not there at the point the engine is marinised, or are removed by the mariniser - my Calcutt has no trace of it' original BMC engine number.

 

If you post a few detailed pictures people will confirm for certain which BMC you have.

 

......................the white smoke could be just steam, did this continue or stop after a while?

We had an over-heating incident with our BMC on the last day of our summer jaunt.

 

From what came from under the engine boards you could easily have believed there was a fire. I seriously considered it was an electrical fire, and we only lifted the boards gingerly having got a couple of extinguishers to hand.

 

In practice it was only steam, presumably blackened by crap in the cooling system, and a degree of hot rubber.

 

The incident appears to have had no lasting ill-effects, (though obviously I need to check again to see if we have a slow water leak that I have missed).

 

I think you are a long way from declaring your engine a "no hoper". If it's an 1800, most things can get fixed.

[David Schweizer]

Although sometimes they are either not there at the point the engine is marinised, or are removed by the mariniser - my Calcutt has no trace of it' original BMC engine number.

Yes, but I have long suspected that some marinisers do that to disguise the true age of the engines they marinise, or the engine has been aquired from a stolen vehicle! (allegedly)

 

Respectable marinisers leave the engine number plate in situ!

Edited September 7, 2009 by David Schweizer

[alan_fincher]

Respectable marinisers leave the engine number plate in situ!

That could almost be taken as a slur on one of family run canal businesses that has been around a great deal longer than many.

 

Makes them sound like Arthur Daley!

[Brucec]

OK, here's the latest:

 

Poked around a bit this morning and, as most of you have said, things don't seem nearly as bleak as they did on Friday.

 

First off, there's no sign of an engine number, however I'm 99% certain it's a 1.8 based on the horizontally-mounted oil filter and fuel pump which are exactly as shown in the photos.

 

Then I cleaned up the air filter (a ring of foam about an inch wide wrapped round a mesh support and completely soaked in dirty oil), topped up the coolant (which looks like horrible rusty sludge so a full drain and refill is needed there) and fired it up. The engine amazingly seems to be running OK: got it up to temperature and the white smoke (mostly) cleared. Backed off the injector pipes in turn and it seems to be firing on all cylinders. Adjusted the throttle and am now able to achieve respectable revs. I have to say it doesn't sound brilliant at tickover but is reasonably even at a fast idle, and not belching much black at all at higher revs. So... it seems that all is not lost.

 

The big question is why it overheated in the first place? From what I've learned here and elsewhere I've figured out that the cooling system is an indirect raw water setup. I'm struggling to understand how this is to be maintained. The inlet is some way below the waterline so it's not easy to check/clear the filter, assuming there is one. I've groped around on the hull but can't seem to find what I'm looking for. Must be missing something. Anyway, I'll keep at it. Delighted to say I'm feeling quite glass-half-full about it today. I need to get to the bottom of the problem though or I'll be terrified to take it out again. I've had few more alarming experiences than being in charge of a 60-foot, 15-ton battering ram floating down the middle of a river with no engine or steering.

 

I know what you're saying Alan: I thought there must be a fire too, there was so much smoke it was hideous and frightening. Talk about in at the deep end!

Edited September 7, 2009 by Brucec

[RobinJ]

Poked around a bit this morning and, as most of you have said, things don't seem nearly as bleak as they did on Friday.

First off, there's no sign of an engine number, however I'm 99% certain it's a 1.8 based on the horizontally-mounted oil filter and fuel pump which are exactly as shown in the photos.

Have a look at the block near the lift pump under the manifolds, if its a 1.8 there should be cast in quite large letters something like 180D. If the block has vertical ribs which should be clearly visible it should have a type 2 camshaft fitted. When you check the vlave clearances they should be set to 0.017" or 0.014" for type 2. If you take off the rocker cover to do this, it might indicate the condition of the oil!

Then I cleaned up the air filter (a ring of foam about an inch wide wrapped round a mesh support and completely soaked in dirty oil), topped up the coolant (which looks like horrible rusty sludge so a full drain and refill is needed there) and fired it up. The engine amazingly seems to be running OK: got it up to temperature and the white smoke (mostly) cleared. Backed off the injector pipes in turn and it seems to be firing on all cylinders. Adjusted the throttle and am now able to achieve respectable revs. I have to say it doesn't sound brilliant at tickover but is reasonably even at a fast idle, and not belching much black at all at higher revs. So... it seems that all is not lost.

All good stuff, may need to think abut changing fuel filter (back of angine above oil filter) and or have injectors serviced, but before you do that, try to drain off a bit of diesel (say at the lift pump) and check what it looks like (should be clear and pink).

The big question is why it overheated in the first place? From what I've learned here and elsewhere I've figured out that the cooling system is an indirect raw water setup. I'm struggling to understand how this is to be maintained. The inlet is some way below the waterline so it's not easy to check/clear the filter, assuming there is one. I've groped around on the hull but can't seem to find what I'm looking for. Must be missing something. Anyway, I'll keep at it. Delighted to say I'm feeling quite glass-half-full about it today. I need to get to the bottom of the problem though or I'll be terrified to take it out again. I've had few more alarming experiences than being in charge of a 60-foot, 15-ton battering ram floating down the middle of a river with no engine or steering.

Does it have a raw water pump fitted on the right of the crankshaft pulley? (not the engine water pump above it).

Where the exhaust manifold is, are there any pipes fitted to the rubber boots, if there is one at each end, this should be the raw water circuit, there are a number of combinations and possibilities!

When you say the inlet is some way below, is it a water inlet or a connection to the skin tank?

If you have a skin tank, they may be one on one side or two, one on each side, or even a keel tank. If you have a skin tank there will be at least one connection low down and one more likely higher up, which will either come from above the exhaust pipe or underneath the manifold next to the thermostat!

Once you've figured out the system (checking that it is a skin tank not a water inlet) you can reverse flush it by removing the bottom hose. (if it is raw water it should be fitted with a sea cock!).

If you have a second set of jubilee clips on the rubber boots at each end of the manifold, there may be a shell and tube stack fitted, it may be worth flushing that too! (you should be able to feel the end of tube through the rubber?)

[David Schweizer]

That could almost be taken as a slur on one of family run canal businesses that has been around a great deal longer than many.

 

Makes them sound like Arthur Daley!

 

 

Post removed :- because I thought better of what I should say. I will PM you

Edited September 7, 2009 by David Schweizer

[Naughty Cal]

The big question is why it overheated in the first place? From what I've learned here and elsewhere I've figured out that the cooling system is an indirect raw water setup. I'm struggling to understand how this is to be maintained. The inlet is some way below the waterline so it's not easy to check/clear the filter, assuming there is one. I've groped around on the hull but can't seem to find what I'm looking for. Must be missing something.

 

If it is raw water cooled you would be in trouble if the inlet was above the water line it wouldnt be able to pick up water On a more serious note ours is indirect raw water cooled and they can on occasion pick up plastic bags or weed on the inlet. This restricts water flow and causes the engine to over heat. Depending on where your water inlet is and how quickly you realise it has overheated a quick blast of reverse often clears the blockage (at least on ours anyhow) I would suggest finding out why the temp gauge isnt working and getting that working before going on any major journeys.

 

Other overheating causes can be blocked inlets from marine growth (mussels is a favourite), closed sea cocks, knackered water pumps (if indirectly cooled), knackered impellors

[slyworme]

Whereabouts are you moored. If it is anywhere near Trowbridge on the K&A I can recommend a number of good people if you require assistance.