Jump to content

Speeding and Criminal Records

mayalld

By mayalld
in General Boating

 Share

Featured Posts

mayalld Veteran II

mayalld

Posted
Posted

I post this with slight trepidation, given the closure of the prior thread on the same subject.

 

I will state up front that whilst I can understand the reasoning behind Graham closing the topic, I feel it was a wrong decision;

  • The original discussion of the incident was curtailed shortly after the incident, when Phylis realised that she really ought not to talk in public about an incident that she was to be prosecuted for. That was fair enough (although one might suggest that having been foolish enough to mention it, she should suffer the consequences)
  • Had the story been about a random boater who was not a member of the forum, discussion would not have been pulled.
  • The whole thing raises interesting points for discussion around the legal aspects.

I have no intention of turning this into an "extract the lager out of Phylis" session, but I do think there are issues to discuss.

 

Prosecutions under the 1965 bye-laws are extraordinarily rare. Many of its provisions seem archaic and clunky, and in most cases there is something in the licence conditions that is of more use when defining the rules.

 

There could even be an argument that the bye-laws no longer apply through long disuse.

 

Prosecutions such as this one serve to confirm the continuing validity of the bye-laws.

 

It is worth drawing a few important distinctions between bye-laws and licence conditions and the like.

 

Licence conditions affect the relationship between the boater and BW, and are a civil matter. If the boater breaches conditions he could have some administrative action taken by BW (including a financial charge). If the boater fails to buy a licence, BW can seek financial redress in a civil court.

 

The bye-laws are criminal law. They apply to all, and apply even to those who have no contractual relationship with BW. They come with the attached machinery and might of the criminal law. If you fail to pay BW what you owe them, you aren't going to be thrown in jail. If you fail to pay a fine imposed under the bye-laws (which doesn't go into BW's coffers) you could well end up inside.

 

There is also the fact that conviction under BW bye-laws IS, without a shadow of a doubt, a criminal record.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nine of Hearts Experienced

Nine of Hearts

Posted
Posted

I don't see the value in discussing this at all. What's the point? The laws appear to be OK as no-one has an issue with them, not even the plaintiff in this case. What is to discuss? I'm sorry, but I think harping on about this has no value whatsoever and IS just mud slinging for the sake of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Allan(nb Albert) Veteran

Allan(nb Albert)

Posted
Posted
There is also the fact that conviction under BW bye-laws IS, without a shadow of a doubt, a criminal record.

 

No, Careless Hands by Max Bygraves is a criminal record as is anything by Des O'Connor.

 

Of course, you can have a criminal record these days without a conviction. Indeed, you can have a criminal record without a trial.

 

Just another way for BW to extract money from boaters

Link to comment
Share on other sites
mayalld Veteran II

mayalld

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I don't see the value in discussing this at all. What's the point? The laws appear to be OK as no-one has an issue with them, not even the plaintiff in this case. What is to discuss? I'm sorry, but I think harping on about this has no value whatsoever and IS just mud slinging for the sake of it.

 

No, it isn't.

 

The laws are little used, and there seems to be a misconception about just how serious it is.

 

It is something that ought to be discussed, and getting all precious about it because it is Phylis is rather silly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nine of Hearts Experienced

Nine of Hearts

Posted
Posted
No, it isn't.

 

The laws are little used, and there seems to be a misconception about just how serious it is.

 

It is something that ought to be discussed, and getting all precious about it because it is Phylis is rather silly.

 

I don't think there's any misconception about how serious it is at all. From what I can see, opinion seems to be fairly unanimous. I'm not getting precious because it's Phylis, I'm getting "silly" because my hackles rise when I see bullying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
NB Alnwick Veteran II

NB Alnwick

Posted
Posted
I don't think there's any misconception about how serious it is at all. From what I can see, opinion seems to be fairly unanimous. I'm not getting precious because it's Phylis, I'm getting "silly" because my hackles rise when I see bullying.

 

I agree. I see no real point to this discussion at all. We all know (or should know) that the BW bye-laws are a serious matter and are fully enforcable by the normal justice procedures of the country. The fact that they rarely need to be enforced can only be a good thing . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MoominPapa Veteran II

MoominPapa

Posted
Posted (edited)
I could have told you that

Hello Phylis, nice to see you back. Please don't feel inhibited from continuing to be an active member of the forum. (I doubt you were somehow!) Feel free to discuss you recent run-in with the law or not, as you wish. Everyone else - if Phylis wants to talk about it - fine, if not I suggest a discrete veil be drawn.

 

MP.

 

Edited to say: Ah, I see that I've been somewhat pre-empted by the "Setting the record straight" topic. Nevertheless my point stands.

Edited by MoominPapa
Link to comment
Share on other sites
alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

Posted
Posted

As an aside, I was interested after a bit of Googling to find that the meaning of "criminal record" in England doesn't seem to be consistent.

 

Several sources that seemed credible stated that whilst "criminal offence" had a legal meaning, "criminal record" actually does not.

 

Others suggested that it is no more than a record held on computer at the CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) - Would a breach of BW bye-laws make it on to that ??

 

However, many seemed to say that even payment of a fixed penalty (road) speeding fine, without it going to court does result in a "criminal record".

 

I see someone got there before me, but I would nominate Joe Dolce's "Shaddup You Face" as pretty high up the list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Allan(nb Albert) Veteran

Allan(nb Albert)

Posted
Posted
As an aside, I was interested after a bit of Googling to find that the meaning of "criminal record" in England doesn't seem to be consistent.

 

Several sources that seemed credible stated that whilst "criminal offence" had a legal meaning, "criminal record" actually does not.

 

Others suggested that it is no more than a record held on computer at the CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) - Would a breach of BW bye-laws make it on to that ??

 

However, many seemed to say that even payment of a fixed penalty (road) speeding fine, without it going to court does result in a "criminal record".

 

I see someone got there before me, but I would nominate Joe Dolce's "Shaddup You Face" as pretty high up the list.

 

The "barrack room lawyers" on this forum may wish to look here.

 

I'm still trying to figure out what a "common criminal" is and how it differs from a "criminal".

Link to comment
Share on other sites
RLWP Veteran II

RLWP

Posted
Posted (edited)
The "barrack room lawyers" on this forum may wish to look here.

 

I'm still trying to figure out what a "common criminal" is and how it differs from a "criminal".

 

Thanks for that link. They're worse than us!

 

Richard

 

I think a common criminal has less distinctive plumage

 

(I believe Carl has gone to search that forum to see if Chrisw is a member)

Edited by RLWP
Link to comment
Share on other sites
stickleback Proficient

stickleback

Posted
Posted (edited)
The "barrack room lawyers" on this forum may wish to look here.

 

I'm still trying to figure out what a "common criminal" is and how it differs from a "criminal".

 

When you find out, do let us know! I can only assume it is a criminal who sounds like Janet Street Porter?

 

(Edited to get rid of too many s's)

Edited by stickleback
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mayalld Veteran II

mayalld

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I agree. I see no real point to this discussion at all. We all know (or should know) that the BW bye-laws are a serious matter and are fully enforcable by the normal justice procedures of the country. The fact that they rarely need to be enforced can only be a good thing . . .

 

I disagree.

 

The fact is that there seems to be a good measure of surprise from some to learn that breach of BW bye-laws is a criminal offence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
mayalld Veteran II

mayalld

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Scape goat sprung to mind.

 

If nothing else i will be careful not to get caught again.

 

You would appear to be in denial here.

 

It seems clear to me, given the rareness of prosecutions, that BW don't prosecue on a whim.

 

It seem to be a not unreasonable conclusion to draw that they chose to prosecute because the breach of the bye-law was flagrant, and whilst the actual speed was not determined by the court, it would seem to be boyond reasonable doubt that you were over the limit.

 

In the absence of any speed measurement device, that is going to mean that you were well over.

 

Indeed, despite your statements today that the exact speed was not determined, you earlier posts on this incident suggested that you really opened her up, and there are ample posts in the past from you boasting about exceeding the limit on other occasions.

 

That isn't a scapegoat, that is a fair cop.

 

Oh, and the best way to not get caught....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.