BMC 1800 "B series" Diesels

[alan_fincher]

Huge numbers of BMC 1800 diesels have been in use on the canals and rivers over the years.

 

More recent ones are Turkish built imports, but the older ones are obviously British manufactured.

 

I have often tried to find out the original uses of this diesel, but really only ever come up with one concrete suggestion, the Austin Morris, or British Leyland "Sherpa" van.

 

If you believe old Sherpa advertising literature, your BMC 1800 might even have had a former life in a British Waterways owned Sherpa Van.

 

 

But it always seems to me that there can't have been enough Sherpas to account for the huge use of this engine in "marine" circles.

 

So what else was it definitely used in please, and, if possible, where is the evidence for it.

 

I've had two or three suggestions made in the past, which I'll not repeat here again, as I couldn't find anything to confirm any of them. It will be interesting if anybody repeats these suggestions, but if so, it would be nice to prove it.

 

Time and time again the FX4 London taxi cab gets mentioned. I don't however believe this is correct. Online sources suggest it actually started life with a 2.2 litre engine, before that got increased to the 2.5 litre. These are a different base engine to the BMC B series, and hence the 1800.

[Athy]

Quite right: the FX4 taxi had a 2,178cc engine.

I wonder where the photo in the advert was taken?

[Timleech]

Huge numbers of BMC 1800 diesels have been in use on the canals and rivers over the years.

 

 

Time and time again the FX4 London taxi cab gets mentioned. I don't however believe this is correct. Online sources suggest it actually started life with a 2.2 litre engine, before that got increased to the 2.5 litre. These are a different base engine to the BMC B series, and hence the 1800.

 

I'm sure the FX4 had the 2.2/2.5, I used to have an FX3 which had the old 2.2 with inline fuel pump. I also had an FL1 'hire car', same base vehicle, which had the petrol version of the same engine (also fitted to the LD van, I believe).

 

The 1.5/1.8 would have been fitted to some saloon cars, though don't ask me which ones. Also it was supplied in an industrial version, for generator sets etc.

 

Tim

Edited June 10, 2009 by Timleech

[Chris-B]

Quite right: the FX4 taxi had a 2,178cc engine.

I wonder where the photo in the advert was taken?

 

Top lock Hanwell flight GU

 

Edited to add :

 

And BW are probably still using the same van by their response times

Edited June 10, 2009 by Baldock

[alan_fincher]

Top lock Hanwell flight GU

AKA Norwood Top Lock.

 

Nothing like as pretty now.

 

There is a huge unsightly metal cage in front of that little office, stuffed full with often overflowing rubbish bins - beware the lock on this cage was mightily reluctant to give us back our BW Key.

 

 

The anti-vandal arrangements on the top locks around here, are in my view some of the worst on the entire Grand Union.

 

Back on Topic:

 

Yes Tim, generator sets has been suggested in the past, (military was suggested), but I've not been able to find out anything about them. It would be quite amusing if a lot of these were on narrowboats, as some of their owners still use them mainly as inefficient generator sets, so their "non propulsion" use continues.

[Serendipity]

Here's an extract from an interesting link that states Turkish BMC diesel units were manufactured from the late 70's. I wonder if the Turkish variant came over here much earlier than generally reckoned? The quoted 'adaptation of diesel engines from gasoline' must refer the BMC 1500/1800 engine?

 

"BMC (The Turkish co making Austin and Morris vehicles ) has made a considerable contribution by accomplishing the production of the first diesel engines in Turkey, followed by the adaptation of diesel engines from gasoline engines in 1976. In addition to the production of complete vehicles, BMC started manufacturing industrial engines, generators, marine engines and military products, needed to support Turkey's fast growing industry".

[Hairy-Neil]

So what else was it definitely used in please, and, if possible, where is the evidence for it.

 

Thornycroft, one time marinisers of the BMC/BL engines was once part of the British Leyland. Not sure of the exact lineage but Thornycroft was until circa 1960 a manufacturer of commercial vehicles in addition to the marine interests. The company was swallowed up by the burgeoning Leyland Group, possibly via Scammell, though can't be certain without further research, ie. my head doesn't work any more.

 

Thornycroft will have taken new units for marinisation direct from the works.

[Alec Gatherer]

The 1500cc B series diesel engine first saw the light of day in the A55 and the subsequent 1622cc A60 (Farina) range of BMC cars; Oxford, Cambridge, (don't think the Wolseley, MG, or Riley were ever offered with diesel engines). I am fairly sure the J2/J4 van was offered with diesel option, both 1500cc and 1622cc. When this evolved into the Sherpa the engine went with it; I think it coincided with the increase to 1800cc but could be wrong.

I haven't researched any of this (but will if asked) so treat it as the ramblings of an aged and feeble mechanic. There is some truth in there I hope.

[Timleech]

I believe some of the smaller Nuffield tractors used the BMC 1.5 engine.

 

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

Thornycroft will have taken new units for marinisation direct from the works.

 

Good point - yes some will have gone new into Marine use.

 

I guess something like the BMC "Captain" marine diesel, (the 1500, I believe ?), was the same.

 

The 1500cc B series diesel engine first saw the light of day in the A55 and the subsequent 1622cc A60 (Farina) range of BMC cars; Oxford, Cambridge, (don't think the Wolseley, MG, or Riley were ever offered with diesel engines). I am fairly sure the J2/J4 van was offered with diesel option, both 1500cc and 1622cc. When this evolved into the Sherpa the engine went with it; I think it coincided with the increase to 1800cc but could be wrong.

I haven't researched any of this (but will if asked) so treat it as the ramblings of an aged and feeble mechanic. There is some truth in there I hope.

 

Alex,

 

I don't know about the cars, but the vans side of it sounds correct. The diesel Sherpa certainly was the first one to receive the 1800 (1798) engine, I believe, with the smaller engines used in the J2 and J4.

 

That still currently leaves me with the Sherpa as the only known automotive use of the 1800. I'm sure there must have been more.

[Hairy-Neil]

That still currently leaves me with the Sherpa as the only known automotive use of the 1800. I'm sure there must have been more.

 

Not that I know of, certainly not from the BL stable. According to Wikipedia, Marina had a diesel option 1977 to 1980 but aparently used the 1500, though I've never seen one. It was replaced by Maestro which never used the B series engines. Land Rover had their own diesels, then later used a Perkins developed unit IIRC. FX4 Taxi used 2.2/2.5 BMC, then the Landrover unit in the FX4R and after buy out by Carbodies, the LTI Fairway finished life with the bomb proof Nissan 2.7.

[David Schweizer]

I believe some of the smaller Nuffield tractors used the BMC 1.5 engine.

 

 

Tim

Correct, which is why I am still able to get filters and other minor spares from my local Agricultural Merchant, at a fraction of the cost from Chandleries.

[Steve King]

Good point - yes some will have gone new into Marine use.

 

Gardenia and Perseus were provided with new Thorneycroft 1.8s when converted (reconverted in the latter case) by BW in 1977/8.

 

Water Buffalo had been re-engined with a BL 1.5 a few years earlier, replacing an air-cooled Lister which was too noisy.

 

Many hire cruisers were fitted with these engines too. We hired a day boat from Wroxham recently and I found a 1.8 in the engine bay. Bridge Boatyard in Ely have them in their Sunquest class of hire cruiser.

 

 

Steve

[Derek R.]

Thames Conservancy launches were also fitted with Thorneycroft, though I cannot say which ones.

Yarmouth had an ex-FX4 2.2 which I believe went under the marinised name of 'Commodore', and is still giving sterling service in Kalamaki.

 

Derek

[RobinJ]

Time and time again the FX4 London taxi cab gets mentioned. I don't however believe this is correct. Online sources suggest it actually started life with a 2.2 litre engine, before that got increased to the 2.5 litre. These are a different base engine to the BMC B series, and hence the 1800.

I believe it was a lot earlier that the FX4!

They were fitted in a wide variety of vehicles including some Rovers, although the larger vehicles quickly moved on to the 2.2/2.5 etc. The reason that both India and Turkey ended up with their own versions is because so many of these verhicles were exported (still in use today?). Were some of them army vehicles?

[Timleech]

I believe it was a lot earlier that the FX4!

 

A bit of taxicab history here

 

http://www.lvta.co.uk/history.htm

 

which says the 2.2 (for the FX3) came out in 1954.

Anyone know when the 1.5 appeared?

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

Anyone know when the 1.5 appeared?

 

Tim

 

Wiipedia reckons the petrol 1.5 was first used in the 1953 MG Magnette ZA.

 

The diesel version seems to have been in things like the J2 van by 1956

 

Link Here

 

So as some may be over 50 years old, I suppose we should not be surprised that they lack some of the modern sophistications.

 

Rather more "vintage" than many things now being touted as "vintage", as others have said.

 

Also seem more enduring than (say )the air cooled Petters that BW re-engined much of their carrying fleet with at dates similar to those above - not many of which can still be found, it seems. (The Petters sound better, though !).

Edited June 11, 2009 by alan_fincher

[carlt]

The diesel Sherpa certainly was the first one to receive the 1800 (1798) engine, I believe, with the smaller engines used in the J2 and J4.

 

That still currently leaves me with the Sherpa as the only known automotive use of the 1800. I'm sure there must have been more.

I drove about in an FG, with a 1800 BMC engine, for a while.

[NB Alnwick]

I seem to recall that the first diesel powered Austin cabs (FX3 series?) were fitted with a 2.2 litre engine developed by Standard-Triumph for the Ferguson Tractor. My father worked as a development engineer for Standard (later Massey-Ferguson) and recalls employees who fitted the same engines to their Standard Vanguard's. This 2.2 litre engine was a very different beast to the 'B' series engines that were subsequently developed by Austin/Morris/Nuffield to power the ubiquitous Austin/Morris 10/12 cwt vans of the 1960s.

[RobinJ]

Huge numbers of BMC 1800 diesels have been in use on the canals and rivers over the years.

 

More recent ones are Turkish built imports, but the older ones are obviously British manufactured.

 

I have often tried to find out the original uses of this diesel, but really only ever come up with one concrete suggestion, the Austin Morris, or British Leyland "Sherpa" van.

 

But it always seems to me that there can't have been enough Sherpas to account for the huge use of this engine in "marine" circles.

 

So what else was it definitely used in please, and, if possible, where is the evidence for it.

It is suggested that the first 1.5 'B' was fitted in 1953 to the Morris Oxford and later to the Magnette and MG A, and after 1956 to the Wolseley and Farina with the 1.8 going into the MG B!

Of course they were developed by Austin initially as petrol and converted to diesel by using the distributor drive for the injector pump and converting the spark plugs to indirect combustion.

The list for the 1.5 includes Metropolitan, Massey Harris combine, Oxford, Wolseley, Riley, Magnette, MG A, Austin Morris Van/Pick Up, Cambridge.

The list for 1.8 includes Sherpa, Marina, Austin & Morris 1800, Wolseley and MG B and a few I've never heard of.

There is mention of export to the USA but not to India or Turkey?

[alan_fincher]

I drove about in an FG, with a 1800 BMC engine, for a while.

Showing my total ignorance, no doubt, but 'FG', wot's that then ?

[carlt]

Showing my total ignorance, no doubt, but 'FG', wot's that then ?

The "thrupenny bit" van:

 

It was so underpowered it makes the Bedford CA feel like a Ferarri

Edited June 11, 2009 by carlt

[alan_fincher]

The "thrupenny bit" van:

 

It was so underpowered it makes the Bedford CA feel like a Ferarri

I like the livery.

 

I could have done with that at the sanitary station at Stonebridge on the Lee the other week! :lol:

[Timleech]

I seem to recall that the first diesel powered Austin cabs (FX3 series?) were fitted with a 2.2 litre engine developed by Standard-Triumph for the Ferguson Tractor. My father worked as a development engineer for Standard (later Massey-Ferguson) and recalls employees who fitted the same engines to their Standard Vanguard's. This 2.2 litre engine was a very different beast to the 'B' series engines that were subsequently developed by Austin/Morris/Nuffield to power the ubiquitous Austin/Morris 10/12 cwt vans of the 1960s.

 

If you check the taxicab link I gave, it says that a Ferguson diesel engine conversion was available for the petrol FX3, until the Austin/BMC 2.2 diesel was introduced in 1954.

I believe the Ferguson engine was a factory option for the Vanguard.

 

Tim

Edited June 11, 2009 by Timleech

[Hairy-Neil]

The list for 1.8 includes Sherpa, Marina, Austin & Morris 1800, Wolseley and MG B and a few I've never heard of.

There is mention of export to the USA but not to India or Turkey?

 

Diesel MGB? now that would be novel.....

 

There was never a diesel option for the front wheel drive cars. Remember, diesel cars is with few exceptions a relatively new phenomenon.

 

The technology, tooling/assembly lines were sold to Turkey (1.8) and India (1.5) when BL dropped the engines from UK production. Sherpa/Freight Rover/LDV vans went on to use the Land Rover engine, then a Peugeot 2.3, then the Ford Transit engine in later years.

 

 

If you check the taxicab link I gave, it says that a Ferguson diesel engine conversion was available for the petrol FX3, until the Austin/BMC 2.2 diesel was introduced in 1954.

I believe the Ferguson engine was a factory option for the Vanguard.

 

Tim

 

IIRC the Vanguard was the first UK built saloon with a diesel option.

 

I've seen early cabs with Perkins 4/99 & 4/108 conversions too, though they might have been in the Ford based Winchester cabs.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Hairy-Neil