Archimedes - How Many Were There?

[Timleech]

TAURUS (forecabin horse boat / butty) was one of several boats acquired by F.M.C. Ltd. on 01 July 1938 from Midlands & Coast Canal Carriers Ltd., Wolverhampton. It operated in the F.M.C. Ltd. fleet under fleet number 348 and was then sold to 'British Waterways' on 01 January 1949 along with 174 other narrow boats. The first reference I have of the renaming to TURTLE is 13 October 1953 when it was re-registered as Birmingham 1641 for 'British Waterways', the re-registration being required as the forecabin had been removed ('British Waterways' removed several forecabins during the 1950's). TURTLE was re-registered again for 'British Waterways' as Northwich 103 on 03 October 1958, still as a single cabin boat. Shortly after this (by September 1962) TURTLE was relegated to a canal maintenance boat and in the early 1970's was sold on to Peter Froud (who may have called it URMSTON prior to its hotel boat conversion in about 1973).

 

'British Waterways' changed the names of several carrying narrow boats when they were duplicated, especially if the duplication was in the same division. I do not know where the name TURTLE came from, and TAURUS was not a carrying fleet duplication anyway ! (G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. TAURUS became a Grand Union Canal Company maintenance boat in 1945 and by 1960 was based at Hartshill).

 

I'd forgotten about the URMSTON bit. I was thinking that the debate over what it should be called when it came from BW was between TURTLE and TAURUS, in fact it was between TURTLE and URMSTON, AFAIR both names came with it from BW.

 

Tim

[kingofthecut]

Lol indeed mate...

 

Whats the update on GH ??

 

Will find out this afternoon as Dad is flying back!

[pete harrison]

I'd forgotten about the URMSTON bit. I was thinking that the debate over what it should be called when it came from BW was between TURTLE and TAURUS, in fact it was between TURTLE and URMSTON, AFAIR both names came with it from BW.

 

Tim

 

Well it looks like Peter Froud got it right as British Waterways Board records state that URMSTON was broken up 14 October 1975.

[BuckbyLocks]

Interestingly Alan H. Faulkner's booklet 'Willow Wren' lists ARGON as being hired to Willow Wren C.T.S. Ltd. from B.W.B. in 1963, but I can find no evidence of this at all.

 

BARBARA was registered as Birmingham 1652 on 09 July 1965 for Birmingham & Midland C.C.Co. Ltd. and period photographs show it to be a Small Woolwich butty. I am inclined to think that BARBARA and ARGON may well be the same boat but again I have no evidence of this. A.E.B.'s records also suggest that BARBARA became ARGON from about September 1967 onwards.

 

'Argon' was certainly in the Birmingham area (as Argon') in January1963, paired with Battersea, Captain named as A. Bromley in the Inspectors handwriting. It has disappeared by 1964 when Battersea was paired with Toucan, Captain G. Lowe. My understanding in 1971 was that she had gone to work for J S Brandt, Coal Merchant of the Soho Loop, BCN and came back to B&MCCCo with several of Brandt's boats in 65. Barbara was Brandt's Wife's name, and Linda was his Daughter. I don't have any copies of the Inspectors reports for the intermediate period but by 1971 'Argon' is back there again. I have a copy of a slide dated 66 which shows the name as 'Argon' once more. 'Linda ' reverted to 'Victoria' sometime in the mid 70s, but I can't remember exactly when. Certainly post 1974 as I had a temporary Thames Llcence that year made out to LInda 4. The two boats did work together in the early days of B&MCCCo.

[Timleech]

Well it looks like Peter Froud got it right as British Waterways Board records state that URMSTON was broken up 14 October 1975.

 

.... then again, Turtle/Urmston/Taurus was sold by BW to Peter Froud 'as scrap', one of five boats and very much the best (least scrapworthy) of the lot.

 

Tim

[mykaskin]

Barbara was Brandt's Wife's name, and Linda was his Daughter.

 

Out of interest does anyone have a photo of the family? It would be fun to put a picture of Linda next to a picture of Victoria when she was called Linda on my website (along with another picture of Victoria as Victoria with a picture of Queen Victoria!).

 

Also, back to OT, a video of Archimedes chugging along the Paddington Arm near Northolt:

 

http://www.vimeo.com/5304210

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[pete harrison]

'Argon' was certainly in the Birmingham area (as Argon') in January1963, paired with Battersea, Captain named as A. Bromley in the Inspectors handwriting. It has disappeared by 1964 when Battersea was paired with Toucan, Captain G. Lowe. My understanding in 1971 was that she had gone to work for J S Brandt, Coal Merchant of the Soho Loop, BCN and came back to B&MCCCo with several of Brandt's boats in 65. Barbara was Brandt's Wife's name, and Linda was his Daughter. I don't have any copies of the Inspectors reports for the intermediate period but by 1971 'Argon' is back there again. I have a copy of a slide dated 66 which shows the name as 'Argon' once more. 'Linda ' reverted to 'Victoria' sometime in the mid 70s, but I can't remember exactly when. Certainly post 1974 as I had a temporary Thames Llcence that year made out to LInda 4. The two boats did work together in the early days of B&MCCCo.

 

I have a B.W.B. tender form listing ARGON (amongst others) with a closing date of 06 November 1964 which fits in with what you say about it going missing. Are you suggesting that Brandt's (Brant's ? as in S.T. Brant & Co., Birmingham) bought this boat from B.W.B. and renamed it BARBARA, selling it on to Birmingham & Midland in 1965 ?

 

.... then again, Turtle/Urmston/Taurus was sold by BW to Peter Froud 'as scrap', one of five boats and very much the best (least scrapworthy) of the lot.

 

Tim

 

I see where your coming from, but I have Peter Froud owning Turtle/Urmston/Taurus by c1970 and definately by September 1972 !

[Timleech]

I see where your coming from, but I have Peter Froud owning Turtle/Urmston/Taurus by c1970 and definately by September 1972 !

 

I can't remember exact dates, but the SNIPE was one of the five - and by the standards of 1970 she probably did merit scrapping - and she entered service as a hotel boat in, IIRC, spring of 1973 (TAURUS followed a year later). This was after a long spell upside down on the bank having lots of doubling and new plating, then I suppose it was the autumn & winter of 1972/73 being converted & fitted out - so the sale was probably in 1970/71.

 

Tim

[pete harrison]

I can't remember exact dates, but the SNIPE was one of the five - and by the standards of 1970 she probably did merit scrapping - and she entered service as a hotel boat in, IIRC, spring of 1973 (TAURUS followed a year later). This was after a long spell upside down on the bank having lots of doubling and new plating, then I suppose it was the autumn & winter of 1972/73 being converted & fitted out - so the sale was probably in 1970/71.

 

Tim

 

In Waterways World September 2005 page 66 Harry Arnold claims SNIPE was owned by Peter Froud by 09 October 1970.

 

Do you recall which other boats did Peter Froud acquired from B.W.B. at this time ?

[Timleech]

In Waterways World September 2005 page 66 Harry Arnold claims SNIPE was owned by Peter Froud by 09 October 1970.

 

Do you recall which other boats did Peter Froud acquired from B.W.B. at this time ?

 

Yes,

GAMBIA (cut down as a tunnel/concreting boat, stern removed by BW), later scrapped with just 10' of the fore-end fitted to SIBERIA(which came from BW later, also cut down but with the bows removed, and was in better condition).

An 'Ot 'Oler, also cut down to about 60', later christened as GLADYS (as a joke), last known sighting sunk on the BCN (only right and fitting ) I've got a pic somewhere, I'll see if I can find it and post it later.

A single-ended iron Joey boat, full length, later christened PHOEBE as part of the same joke, donated to the Boat Museum and as far as I know still there and 'seriously' named PHOEBE :lol:.

 

Tim

Edited July 13, 2009 by Timleech

[pete harrison]

Yes,

GAMBIA (cut down as a tunnel/concreting boat, stern removed by BW), later scrapped with just 10' of the fore-end fitted to SIBERIA(which came from BW later, also cut down but with the bows removed, and was in better condition).

An 'Ot 'Oler, also cut down to about 60', later christened as GLADYS (as a joke), last known sighting sunk on the BCN (only right and fitting ) I've got a pic somewhere, I'll see if I can find it and post it later.

A single-ended iron Joey boat, full length, later christened PHOEBE as part of the same joke, donated to the Boat Museum and as far as I know still there and 'seriously' named PHOEBE :lol:.

 

Tim

 

I didn't know about the 'Ot 'Oler, but I did know about the others. PHOEBE is still at Ellesmere Port, or at least it was on Easter Sunday !

[Timleech]

I didn't know about the 'Ot 'Oler, but I did know about the others. PHOEBE is still at Ellesmere Port, or at least it was on Easter Sunday !

 

Here is GLADYS, back in more or less her native environment, this was perhaps 20 years ago?

 

 

 

You can just about make out the last vestiges of my 'signwrighting' on the bows which was done many years previously with perhaps a 1" brush and some white primer

 

Tim

[pete harrison]

Yes,

GAMBIA (cut down as a tunnel/concreting boat, stern removed by BW), later scrapped with just 10' of the fore-end fitted to SIBERIA(which came from BW later, also cut down but with the bows removed, and was in better condition).

 

Tim

 

B.W.B. sold SIBERIA 18 June 1974.

 

This seems to be turning into the Tim & Pete show !!!

[Timleech]

B.W.B. sold SIBERIA 18 June 1974.

 

It was sunk opposite Red Bull yard, we had to go & raise it, then tow it back to Preston Brook.

At a later stage, Gambia was on the bank & I cut the bows off to match the 'punt' shape where Siberia had been shortened, welded some angle iron lugs onto both Siberia and Gambia in matching places, then with the aid of a hired crane bolted the bow section of Gambia onto the floating Siberia.

Then gingerly towed the ensemble through Preston Brook tunnel to the dry-dock so that the union could be properly sealed

 

Tim

[BuckbyLocks]

I have a B.W.B. tender form listing ARGON (amongst others) with a closing date of 06 November 1964 which fits in with what you say about it going missing. Are you suggesting that Brandt's (Brant's ? as in S.T. Brant & Co., Birmingham) bought this boat from B.W.B. and renamed it BARBARA, selling it on to Birmingham & Midland in 1965 ?

 

Yes, absolutely, but I have it as J S Brandt, who was a coal merchant round the Soho Loop. You can see where his basin was if you study the concrete edging round the grassy bit. His telephone numbers were Nor(th) 2159 & 2186. My understanding is that nearly all of his fleet went to B & MCCCo, but only a couple of them were ever re-registered. Unfortunately the only picture I have of 'Linda' during that ownership does not show the name clearly, but I did check the directories back in the 70s. Faulkner quotes S T Brant in his NarrowBoat article on B & MCCCo so one of us is wrong.

[madcat]

Where is Victoria Linda now,I had either Halsall or Victoria on my "to buy" list but ended up with Halsall .

[BuckbyLocks]

Where is Victoria Linda now,I had either Halsall or Victoria on my "to buy" list but ended up with Halsall .

 

 

Watch this space madcat. Mike Askin moves her about so much no one else can keep up, but he reports in to the Forum regularly, with lots of video clips, so you will not have to wait long. He should have reached wherever he was going after Braunston. I did try hard to persuade you!

[Paul H]

Watch this space madcat. Mike Askin moves her about so much no one else can keep up, but he reports in to the Forum regularly, with lots of video clips, so you will not have to wait long. He should have reached wherever he was going after Braunston. I did try hard to persuade you!

 

Actually Victoria isn't far from you - moored just up the Leicester Arm at Norton Junction with Sweden - or at least it was on Tuesday.

[mykaskin]

Actually Victoria isn't far from you - moored just up the Leicester Arm at Norton Junction with Sweden - or at least it was on Tuesday.

 

...and hopefully still is. Heading North on the Oxford then Coventry canals. Aiming for Newark, ready for my main summer hols which looking at the weather recently may be much wetter than my Easter hols earlier this year.

 

Mike

[John Brightley]

Corolla was quite possibly Wagtail even though Ouzel was written on her, having looked through my old photos none clearly show the water name, but i clearly remember it being written in paint as was Corolla (yellow paint) the back cabin was overlaid with BW blue / yellow and underneath was Brummagem Boats (or something similar) in Red

i removed the entire back cabin and counter deck in late 1984 as by this time she was absolutely rotten (still have the photo's)

also found a picture of Ouzel which was in Willow Wren colours again around the same time and i think the picture is at Braunston Turn but can't be 100% on that.

I can confirm that Corolla was Water Wagtail in the BW trip boat fleet - it was then named Brummagem Fly when operated by Brummagem Boats between about 1975 and 1982.

Water Ouzel was operated by Willow Wren Cruises from Braunston Turn throughout the late '70's and '80's.

[pete harrison]

I can confirm that Corolla was Water Wagtail in the BW trip boat fleet - it was then named Brummagem Fly when operated by Brummagem Boats between about 1975 and 1982.

British Waterways Board sold COROLLA (sold as WATER WAGTAIL) in October 1979, or at least that is the closure date on the sealed tender list. By this time Brummagem Boats Ltd. were not operating a day trip boat, but were concentrating on their rapidly expanding hire fleet and boat sales.

 

How do I know - because I lived at Sherborne Street Wharf from 1979 to 1985.

[John Brightley]

British Waterways Board sold COROLLA (sold as WATER WAGTAIL) in October 1979, or at least that is the closure date on the sealed tender list. By this time Brummagem Boats Ltd. were not operating a day trip boat, but were concentrating on their rapidly expanding hire fleet and boat sales.

 

How do I know - because I lived at Sherborne Street Wharf from 1979 to 1985.

Hi Pete.

I'm sure you're correct about the date - I was guessing at 1982. Here is a picture of her at Foxton in 1983:

[pete harrison]

Here is a picture of her at Foxton in 1983:

That is where it went after being sold in 1979, and remained there until being sold again in 2008 - but without its trip boat conversion.