Battery boiling and other tales

[PaddingtonBear]

After having an expensive home visit (two bottles of Old Peculiar) from MoominPapa where he fitted my wonderful new toy - a digital ammeter/voltmeter I charged my batteries from a landline using 25amp marine multi stage charger in preparation for the Grand Voyage. This is probably the first time in two and a half years that the batteries have been properly and fully charged (?) as up until Saturday I had absolutely no means of knowing what was going on and relied on the lights going yellow or the fridge indicator light flashing to let me know when to charge the batteries. I have 2x220 amp Elecsols and a 200 amp lead acid start battery. Starting voltage on the Elecsols was 12.50 and the starting voltage of the start battery was 12.75 tested by multi meter directly on the batteries. I checked the water in the start battery and topped it up a little. I left the battery charger connected to both as generally advised and it was charging at 14.4 v as it seems to sense the Elecsols and in the middle of the night my gas detector went off big time. It is about twenty five feet from the batteries. I checked the start battery and it was dry so I have now topped it up again using nearly one litre of distilled water. The finish voltage was 13.8v. Any clues? Stands back and awaits abuse (for Elecsols), derision for micky mouse charger, finger pointing and general yobbish behaviour for not knowing and for asking silly questions but I have big broad shoulders and it can be right can it?

[RobinJ]

After having an expensive home visit (two bottles of Old Peculiar) from MoominPapa where he fitted my wonderful new toy - a digital ammeter/voltmeter I charged my batteries from a landline using 25amp marine multi stage charger in preparation for the Grand Voyage. This is probably the first time in two and a half years that the batteries have been properly and fully charged (?) as up until Saturday I had absolutely no means of knowing what was going on and relied on the lights going yellow or the fridge indicator light flashing to let me know when to charge the batteries. I have 2x220 amp Elecsols and a 200 amp lead acid start battery. Starting voltage on the Elecsols was 12.50 and the starting voltage of the start battery was 12.75 tested by multi meter directly on the batteries. I checked the water in the start battery and topped it up a little. I left the battery charger connected to both as generally advised and it was charging at 14.4 v as it seems to sense the Elecsols and in the middle of the night my gas detector went off big time. It is about twenty five feet from the batteries. I checked the start battery and it was dry so I have now topped it up again using nearly one litre of distilled water. The finish voltage was 13.8v. Any clues? Stands back and awaits abuse (for Elecsols), derision for micky mouse charger, finger pointing and general yobbish behaviour for not knowing and for asking silly questions but I have big broad shoulders and it can be right can it?

Did you charge the two (three) simultaneously (ie together)?

Not familiar with Elecsols, but suspect their charging voltage is slightly higher, hence the loss of water from the starter!

Nice to know you can detect Hydrogen at 25 feet

What is the age of the starter? As they get older and the capacity starts to diminish you can get more gassing at full charge.

[MoominPapa]

After having an expensive home visit (two bottles of Old Peculiar) from MoominPapa where he fitted my wonderful new toy - a digital ammeter/voltmeter I charged my batteries from a landline using 25amp marine multi stage charger in preparation for the Grand Voyage. This is probably the first time in two and a half years that the batteries have been properly and fully charged (?) as up until Saturday I had absolutely no means of knowing what was going on and relied on the lights going yellow or the fridge indicator light flashing to let me know when to charge the batteries. I have 2x220 amp Elecsols and a 200 amp lead acid start battery. Starting voltage on the Elecsols was 12.50 and the starting voltage of the start battery was 12.75 tested by multi meter directly on the batteries. I checked the water in the start battery and topped it up a little. I left the battery charger connected to both as generally advised and it was charging at 14.4 v as it seems to sense the Elecsols and in the middle of the night my gas detector went off big time. It is about twenty five feet from the batteries. I checked the start battery and it was dry so I have now topped it up again using nearly one litre of distilled water. The finish voltage was 13.8v. Any clues? Stands back and awaits abuse (for Elecsols), derision for micky mouse charger, finger pointing and general yobbish behaviour for not knowing and for asking silly questions but I have big broad shoulders and it can be right can it?

 

The first explanation that comes to mind is that the starter battery has a shorted cell, so that the voltage from the charger is being divided by five, rather than six, and each remaining cell is being grossly overcharged. Was there a significant difference between cells in the amount of water needed to top it up?

 

At this point, I think I'd switch the the starter battery out entirely and leave things for a few hours to settle, then measure the voltage across the starter. Leave the charger on in float mode across the Elecsols too, to make sure that all is OK there.

 

MP.

[PaddingtonBear]

The start battery is an Exide Lorry Battery so very HD (I had hoped). It is only 3 years old and has been well looked after. It has had very light use. Perhaps I am just unlucky....... I know that I am always unlucky but three years of well maintained light use? It has six cells and none seemed to be especially lower than the other and all seemed to be bubbling when charging, in fact I would have thought that the 'bubbling' was quite violent but I am only used to monitoring car type batteries on 6 amps or so. I must say that I am terribly impressed with the gauge for £20.00 inc postage from Hong Kong. I almost got it by return and I received info. on its journey every step of the way. The first one did not work (or I f88ked it up) and they replalced ti by return without a quibble - lessons to learned here I think. I only wish I could post a link to their site as I might be helpful to others

I have not left the batteries on float as I did not want to make a mobile bomb and I am only insured third party but now I have my gauge all will be well - perhaps it can even mend my battery whilst I am away

 

Just a thought, might it be a faulty charger? Voltages of batteries on the morning after, following no charging for 5 hours or so and lights, w/pump and possible fridge use , Start 13.0 v, Domestic 12.8v. Any comments?

[MoominPapa]

Just a thought, might it be a faulty charger? Voltages of batteries on the morning after, following no charging for 5 hours or so and lights, w/pump and possible fridge use , Start 13.0 v, Domestic 12.8v. Any comments?

That sounds fine. 13V on start makes it pretty unlikely that there's a shorted cell. This may simply be that we turned the charger off and on again when fitting the meter. The batteries were clearly already fully charged then and every time the charger is power-cycled that resets the timer and it does another 8 hours (or whatever) at 14.4V before dropping back to float at 13.8V. If you've switched the charger on and off again since then the same thing will have happened again.

 

Was the start battery obviously hot or smelly? If not then it's probably a non-problem.

 

MP.

 

Edited to add. Now you have the meter, it's easy to see if the charger is behaving. Starting with discharged batteries you should see 25A charge current, dropping slowly as the charger ramps the voltage up to 14.4. After the bulk period the charger should then go into float mode, and maintain the batteries at 13.8V and the charge current should be a few amps.

Edited June 2, 2009 by MoominPapa

[PaddingtonBear]

Exactly what is happening it appears - thanks for all your support. 13.8v on both, .9 amps start between 1.0 and 5.5 amps domestic (fridge).

 

Maybe a very sensitive gas alarm? as an ex-smoker I don't have much of a sense of smell.

[MoominPapa]

Exactly what is happening it appears - thanks for all your support. 13.8v on both, .9 amps start between 1.0 and 5.5 amps domestic (fridge).

 

Maybe a very sensitive gas alarm? as an ex-smoker I don't have much of a sense of smell.

Where is the gas alarm? It should be low down for propane which is heavier than air. Hydrogen from the batteries will go straight up. I don't know if propane alarms are even sensitive to H2. Anybody?

 

MP.

[Tony Brooks]

Where is the gas alarm? It should be low down for propane which is heavier than air. Hydrogen from the batteries will go straight up. I don't know if propane alarms are even sensitive to H2. Anybody?

 

MP.

 

From previous posts they are sensitive to hydrogen sulphide which an overcharged battery might produce.

[Sir Nibble]

I've seen this before. It was due to a cracked battery case leaking on that occasion.

[PaddingtonBear]

Thanks all, for the record the alarm that went off was 25 feet away from the source, sited just below the gunnel height with a closed door in between. Mighty sensitive I am pleased to say. Not forgetting that Hydrogen Sulphide is explosive as I discovered when I removed the leads with out turning it off and allowing to settle when charging an old style rubber cased battery, it exploded and a piece of the case missed my eye by about half an inch - so be careful out there

[bobtom]

Thanks all, for the record the alarm that went off was 25 feet away from the source, sited just below the gunnel height with a closed door in between. Mighty sensitive I am pleased to say. Not forgetting that Hydrogen Sulphide is explosive as I discovered when I removed the leads with out turning it off and allowing to settle when charging an old style rubber cased battery, it exploded and a piece of the case missed my eye by about half an inch - so be careful out there

[alan_fincher]

Not forgetting that Hydrogen Sulphide is explosive as I discovered when I removed the leads with out turning it off and allowing to settle when charging an old style rubber cased battery, it exploded and a piece of the case missed my eye by about half an inch - so be careful out there

I'm guessing it's not hydrogen sulphide you were exploding.

 

More likely that as you "gas" batteries you are breaking down the water in the electrolyte to produce a mix of hydrogen and oxygen that is exactly the right ratio to be nicely explosive.

 

That's what I believe happens, in these cases, anyway - you also need to provide the spark or flame, of course, which you did by disconnecting the croc clip, whilst still powered on......

[bobtom]

hi guys sorry to butt into this but as you are there perhaps you could help me also. We are ccers and yet again are having battery probs. I have 3x110s charging with a sterling 30amp powerpack. The batts are approx 6months old. They seen to be charging ok but lately i've noted that every morning they are down to 12v (this morning 11.98). Before all this they were reading 12.2. What am i doing wrong. Pleeease. Tom

[MoominPapa]

I'm guessing it's not hydrogen sulphide you were exploding.

 

More likely that as you "gas" batteries you are breaking down the water in the electrolyte to produce a mix of hydrogen and oxygen that is exactly the right ratio to be nicely explosive.

 

That's what I believe happens, in these cases, anyway - you also need to provide the spark or flame, of course, which you did by disconnecting the croc clip, whilst still powered on......

Yes, the explosive mixture is hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrogen sulphide smells like rotten eggs, so it's easy to detect with the mk1 nose at low concentrations. At high concentrations is anesthetizes the nose and can't be smelt, but can at those concentrations it starts to be poisonous so makes itself felt in other ways.

 

PB do you remember when we visited that Ducks at Upware and James had a cooking battery? That's what hydrogen sulphide smells like.

 

MP.

[smileypete]

After having an expensive home visit (two bottles of Old Peculiar) from MoominPapa where he fitted my wonderful new toy - a digital ammeter/voltmeter I charged my batteries from a landline using 25amp marine multi stage charger in preparation for the Grand Voyage. This is probably the first time in two and a half years that the batteries have been properly and fully charged (?) as up until Saturday I had absolutely no means of knowing what was going on and relied on the lights going yellow or the fridge indicator light flashing to let me know when to charge the batteries. I have 2x220 amp Elecsols and a 200 amp lead acid start battery. Starting voltage on the Elecsols was 12.50 and the starting voltage of the start battery was 12.75 tested by multi meter directly on the batteries. I checked the water in the start battery and topped it up a little. I left the battery charger connected to both as generally advised and it was charging at 14.4 v as it seems to sense the Elecsols and in the middle of the night my gas detector went off big time. It is about twenty five feet from the batteries. I checked the start battery and it was dry so I have now topped it up again using nearly one litre of distilled water. The finish voltage was 13.8v. Any clues? Stands back and awaits abuse (for Elecsols), derision for micky mouse charger, finger pointing and general yobbish behaviour for not knowing and for asking silly questions but I have big broad shoulders and it can be right can it?

How far exactly did you top up the starter battery, e.g. to 1/8th" above the plates?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[PaddingtonBear]

Yes I know about 'rotten egs' etc HOWEVER i did not know that the water level was so critical, in both cases, before and after charging, the water level was higher than that. In fact, I am embarrassed to recount that I put in a little extra on the basis that they were going to lose water in the charging process. I will go outside now an beat myself with red hot barbed wire or even go to the norty step and drink lager.

[smileypete]

It's not the end of the world if they weren't at the right level.

 

Two things well worth doing:

• Study and observe the handling and charging precautions at http://www.batteryfaq.org/
  
• When buying a non-sealed battery, ask the supplier to explain how and to where they should be topped up.
  

cheers,

Pete.

[PaddingtonBear]

Thank you sp,

[bottle]

hi guys sorry to butt into this but as you are there perhaps you could help me also. We are ccers and yet again are having battery probs. I have 3x110s charging with a sterling 30amp powerpack. The batts are approx 6months old. They seen to be charging ok but lately i've noted that every morning they are down to 12v (this morning 11.98). Before all this they were reading 12.2. What am i doing wrong. Pleeease. Tom

 

Your batteries are flat, have always been flat and they are not being re-charged sufficiently.

 

As a guide you have to put back approximately 1.5 times what you take out and it will take hours.

 

ps. to measure state of charge with a volt meter it requires an accuracy of + or - 0.5%.

 

Have a search, this has come up many, many, many times.

 

A meter that can give you accurate readings of 'state of charge' is the Smartgauge used by many and comes highly recommended.

 

If you click on 'Technical info' there is a great deal of information on batteries, wiring, charging and a lot more.

 

Happy reading.

[bobtom]

Your batteries are flat, have always been flat and they are not being re-charged sufficiently.

 

As a guide you have to put back approximately 1.5 times what you take out and it will take hours.

 

ps. to measure state of charge with a volt meter it requires an accuracy of + or - 0.5%.

 

Have a search, this has come up many, many, many times.

 

A meter that can give you accurate readings of 'state of charge' is the Smartgauge used by many and comes highly recommended.

 

If you click on 'Technical info' there is a great deal of information on batteries, wiring, charging and a lot more.

 

Happy reading.

 

 

many thanks Keith. Shall ask the boss if she'll let me have some dosh for said article, in the meantime shall trawl through the site to find an answer. I do hope its not a case of more new batteries, said boss will go mental !!

[Smelly]

hi guys sorry to butt into this but as you are there perhaps you could help me also. We are ccers and yet again are having battery probs. I have 3x110s charging with a sterling 30amp powerpack. The batts are approx 6months old. They seen to be charging ok but lately i've noted that every morning they are down to 12v (this morning 11.98). Before all this they were reading 12.2. What am i doing wrong. Pleeease. Tom

 

If you search for "batteries" you'll find heaps of advice. I note the "every morning" bit so will assume that they've seen a night's heavy use since last charging. You'd need to run your engine all day to get them back to a healthy state of charge from 11.9, and if you don't do big runs like that then now is a good time to start. A good charging might be all they need.

 

I tend to run at least 2 hours an evening when the sun's not out with most of the day so 4 maybe 6 houirs at least one day over the weekend, often both. That still won't get my batteries to full SOC (I've got 4 open) and living with replacing sulphated batteries every couple of years is the consequence of that, but better than living with my engine runnign every spare minute.

 

If you have twin alternators, know someone who could confidently doctor an alternator for you, or are brave enough to tackle it yourself you could think about the paralleling circuit that Chris built, the method is pinned at the top of the equipment forum, otherwise, if you're confident with a crimper there's a non alt doctoring version but you must remember to switch it off after a couple of hours. Hopefully we'll come up with an automatic version but there's some question as to whether it'll work without doctoring the alt.

[bobtom]

many thanks Smelly, I was advised by Keith to get a smartgauge - am waiting for the right moment to put it to "she who holds the purse " - and, hopefully, that will give me some idea of what is going on. In the meantime I have trawled through past posts -having a good few laughs along the way- and, over the next few days, shall go through some of the suggestions made. Again many thanks for replying to my post. regards Tom

 

many thanks Smelly, I was advised by Keith to get a smartgauge - am waiting for the right moment to put it to "she who holds the purse " - and, hopefully, that will give me some idea of what is going on. In the meantime I have trawled through past posts -having a good few laughs along the way- and, over the next few days, shall go through some of the suggestions made. Again many thanks for replying to my post. regards Tom

[PaddingtonBear]

Before you approach 'she who holds the purse strings 'perhaps you should consider trying the gauge that I have just fitted which was £20 +fitting bits and pieces. I am sorry that I don't know how to post a link but if you are interested PM me and I will type it out

[wonderdust]

Before you approach 'she who holds the purse strings 'perhaps you should consider trying the gauge that I have just fitted which was £20 +fitting bits and pieces. I am sorry that I don't know how to post a link but if you are interested PM me and I will type it out

 

Is it similar to the one Stuart fitted here?