Engine not starting - ideas / suggestions?

[Sir Nibble]

I have never seen Sir Nibble get anything wrong on boat electrics yet on this forum, (although it's possible I missed some duff advice, of course! )

 

If he is suggesting certain tests, (which may find a fault, but if they do not, will at least rule some things out), then if it were me, I'd be doing those tests. Particularly if the alternative is a replacement engine.

 

I've not reread the thread, but I don't think his recommendations would cost anything to try out, would they ?

 

I agree not all advice is good advice, but I've been on the forum long enough to be able to tell you who is usually on the money, and who is not! If you ignore everybody else, at least listen to the professional in automotive and marine electrics, who is giving his advice for nothing.

 

Alan

Your cheque is in the post.

[Brin Morris]

You have not said if you are getting fuel coming out of the injector pipes at the injectors when the engine is turning over. If you are not getting fuel here then you would need to start working backwards. pump, filters etc. If you are getting fuel here then it will not be an electrical problem stopping it starting if it will not fire on easy start.

[chris w]

We have done this and got ~11.5 V across each glow plug. We also connected the glow plugs directly onto the leisure batteries to make sure they had enough enough power. Still no joy.

 

 

Nathan

Just to clarify.... you got 11.5v across EACH glowplug whilst cranking? What was the cranking voltage with all 4 glowplugs connected at the same time? If you measure this, I can tell you how good your battery is.

 

Chris

[BeckyJC]

You have not said if you are getting fuel coming out of the injector pipes at the injectors when the engine is turning over. If you are not getting fuel here then you would need to start working backwards. pump, filters etc. If you are getting fuel here then it will not be an electrical problem stopping it starting if it will not fire on easy start.

Yes, there is fuel coming out of the injectors. Mechanic friend also turned the engine by hand and checked when the fuel was coming out of the injectors to check the fuel pump timing.

 

We have fuel, have heat (we think), have air.... but still no luck.

 

Will try the tests that have been suggested on here when I get back from work if I can, but other than that it's time to let the professionals take over I think. I need my engine, and have been without it for about 3 months now.

 

B

[cornet]

Just to clarify.... you got 11.5v across EACH glowplug whilst cranking? What was the cranking voltage with all 4 glowplugs connected at the same time? If you measure this, I can tell you how good your battery is.

 

Chris

 

The ignition is rigged so that there is no voltage to the glow plugs while cranking - you have to warm the glow plugs before hand by turning the ignition the opposite way.

 

We've tried connecting the glow plugs directly onto the leisure batteries (and checked voltage) but it still won't start.

 

I've also checked that the starter is getting ~12V while cranking.

 

 

Also to refer back to my previous post - this is a 1L engine in a 57ft narrow boat - research suggests this is far too small for the boat. This is quite a good argument I feel for replacing the engine anyway.

 

 

Nathan

[johnjo]

Also to refer back to my previous post - this is a 1L engine in a 57ft narrow boat - research suggests this is far too small for the boat. This is quite a good argument I feel for replacing the engine anyway.

 

 

Nathan

Agreed, but if you can get it running [1] You can take your time finding a replacement, [2] You can sell it as running, more money to put towards the replacement.

 

Might not be of much help but here goes anyway, I once had a Ranger Rover that had a new distributor fitted by a garage, and still wouldn't run, then they found it was set trying to fire on the exhaust stroke. Have you checked your timing is definitely set correctly?

Edited February 23, 2009 by johnjo

[BeckyJC]

Also to refer back to my previous post - this is a 1L engine in a 57ft narrow boat - research suggests this is far too small for the boat. This is quite a good argument I feel for replacing the engine anyway.

 

 

Nathan

 

Agreed, but if you can get it running [1] You can take your time finding a replacement, [2] You can sell it as running, more money to put towards the replacement.

 

Might not be of much help but here goes anyway, I once had a Ranger Rover that had a new distributor fitted by a garage, and still wouldn't run, then they found it was set trying to fire on the exhaust stroke. Have you checked your timing is definitely set correctly?

Friendly mechanic checked the timing, and he thought it was set correctly. Not being a mechanic, I don't know any better, so can't say it is DEFINITELY set correctly. I would love to get the engine running, like nothing else on Earth right now, but am reluctant to spend any more time or money on it. We have already spent 3 months of weekends trying different things, the line has to be drawn somewhere. I could pay someone to come and spend more time on it, but there would be no guarantee that it would work at the end of that. I might just end up spending even more money on a dead engine, and be left with nothing to show for it but a big bill. I have to be off my current mooring by the end of March, so spending even more time trying different things isn't really an option now, I need a solution.

 

Cheers,

B

[johnjo]

Have you checked your PM's

[smileypete]

The ignition is rigged so that there is no voltage to the glow plugs while cranking - you have to warm the glow plugs before hand by turning the ignition the opposite way.

 

So it's not 11.5V after all!

 

Does anyone else have this 'feature' on their engine?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[carlt]

So it's not 11.5V after all!

 

Does anyone else have this 'feature' on their engine?

 

cheers,

Pete.

I had it on an old FG, once. Turn the key anti-clockwise for a count of 10 then clockwise, to start the engine (every now and then).

 

I need a solution.

Easystart

[BeckyJC]

Easystart

Tried that, long long ago, didn't help.

 

Cheers,

B

[ditchcrawler]

I understand that, but we needed to try EVERYTHING. So many people with specialised knowledge in various areas have told us so many things that they thought were the issue. Everyone who has helped has had different ideas/opinions, and so replacing the glow plugs (£21 for a new set) had to be worth a try, as our friend with experience of industral diesel engines suspected that they were the issue.

 

I still don't understand how the glow plug test was completely meaningless - if we were getting a reading from one, but not the other two, then surely that means that SOMETHING was wrong there. Surely they should all behave in the same way?

 

Anyway, we've now proven that it's not the glow plugs that are the problem....if only we knew where the issue actually was.

 

B

A friend of mine had an engine in his yacht that wouldn't start, he was assured by a chap who knows all about engines that the heaters were working correctly so the engine needed stripping and rebuilding. He half made the decision to buy a new engine and then did electrical tests on the heaters found the heater connection on the start key switch was faulty, A new crimp and it started first time. As others on here have said take the reading and post them back. Its the only way for members on here to tell whats happening.

Brian

[steelaway]

Friendly mechanic checked the timing, and he thought it was set correctly. Not being a mechanic, I don't know any better, so can't say it is DEFINITELY set correctly. I would love to get the engine running, like nothing else on Earth right now, but am reluctant to spend any more time or money on it. We have already spent 3 months of weekends trying different things, the line has to be drawn somewhere. I could pay someone to come and spend more time on it, but there would be no guarantee that it would work at the end of that. I might just end up spending even more money on a dead engine, and be left with nothing to show for it but a big bill. I have to be off my current mooring by the end of March, so spending even more time trying different things isn't really an option now, I need a solution.

 

Cheers,

B

 

 

Hi Becky

 

If it wont run on easy start there is some thing seriously wrong.

Spraying easy start into the air inlet bypasses all the fueling.

Even if the injectors are nackered or the fuel pump is faulty it should still run.

It can only be a lack compression stoping running - either the rings are stuck or the valves or open.

Was the tappets adjusted when the new head gasket was fitted?

IMHO you need to find out if you have a good compression

If you remove the injectors and put a cloth wrapped finger over the hole it should blow your finger away.

 

Alex

[cornet]

A friend of mine had an engine in his yacht that wouldn't start, he was assured by a chap who knows all about engines that the heaters were working correctly so the engine needed stripping and rebuilding. He half made the decision to buy a new engine and then did electrical tests on the heaters found the heater connection on the start key switch was faulty, A new crimp and it started first time. As others on here have said take the reading and post them back. Its the only way for members on here to tell whats happening.

Brian

 

We double and triple checked the glow plugs, even connected them to the leisure batteries to make sure.

 

While there are probably many other things that we could try the whole thing is depressing us now and we just want it sorted. Becky and myself would like to spend time actually living on the boat and using it for its purpose rather than spending every other weekend trying to get it working and getting more and more disheartened every time we try something and it doesn't work.

 

While some people get enjoyment out of fixing engines and spending all their time fixing them, we don't! We enjoy cruising around seeing the county side, hunting out little pubs, and spending time away from our hectic lives. We can't do this at the moment and and so we are getting little enjoyment out of it.

 

Yes a new engine to many might be considered an expensive way out but the cost is insignificant compared to the enjoyment we would get out of it.

 

Please can I ask that people respect Becky's decision and provide useful and sound advice on good candidates for new Engines.

 

 

Thanks for your understanding.

 

Nathan

[smileypete]

Becky did earlier say:

 

As for the knocking, he didn't think it was anything to worry about for the moment and likely caused by the easy start.

Which may have been the engine starting to fire.

 

Easy start won't help marginal compression though, and may help knacker an engine.

 

 

If the glo-plugs and their supply are 100% I'd look at.

 

Contamination/dirt/air (still!) in fuel/injector pipes.

Exhaust/air filter/intake obstructions

Compression

Fuel pump timing

Valve timing

 

in roughly that order.

 

But a fairly methodical way of doing things would really help, eg in post #98.

 

Will be interesting to see what Thorne make of it.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited February 23, 2009 by smileypete

[Big Steve]

If it doesn't even cough or fart with easy start in, it's got to be compression related. (timing, valves, pistons, head)

 

If you decide to dump the engine, I might be interested if the price is right. I need one for a motor sailer and this sounds just about the right size.

 

 

Where abouts are you? If you're near Thorne, S yorks, I could come and give you the benefit of my wisdom (what little there is of it)

[Yamanx]

Hi Becky

 

If it wont run on easy start there is some thing seriously wrong.

Spraying easy start into the air inlet bypasses all the fueling.

Even if the injectors are nackered or the fuel pump is faulty it should still run.

It can only be a lack compression stoping running - either the rings are stuck or the valves or open.

Was the tappets adjusted when the new head gasket was fitted?

IMHO you need to find out if you have a good compression

If you remove the injectors and put a cloth wrapped finger over the hole it should blow your finger away.

 

Alex

 

Read steelaway's post quoted above.

 

Hello, anyone there?

 

If it wont start on easy start its got bugger all to do with glow plugs or fuel for that matter as it would run on easy start without any if there is compression, six pages of advice and four of them going on about frigging voltages accross glow plugs, the very first post said it wouldnt start using easy start!

 

This engine overheated to the point the head gasket blew. Theres a very good chance the rings are knackered because of siezing, no compression. There must be loads of posts on here saying "check compression" That is what you need to do

 

Good luck

 

What was the voltage accross the glow plugs again?

[chris w]

.............six pages of advice and four of them going on about frigging voltages accross glow plugs....

But to be fair the OP kept mentioning glowplugs and a few of us kept telling them that their tests were meaningless....

 

That advice also has a wider audience in general.

 

Chris

[Yamanx]

But to be fair the OP kept mentioning glowplugs and a few of us kept telling them that their tests were meaningless....

 

That advice also has a wider audience in general.

 

Chris

 

Fair enough

[Rojo]

any further news on this?

[BeckyJC]

any further news on this?

Yup, my new engine has arrived and is due to be fitted over the next few weeks

 

Someone mechanically-minded came and had a look at my old engine; he too thinks that the issue is pistons / rings, and he is buying it from me for a project.

 

Am just pleased now that the whole drama is over with, and I will have my boat back up and running with a shiny new engine and more power which my boat really needed as the engine was on the small side for it anyway. It makes sense, as I plan to be spending time on rivers now, which I wasn't when I bought the boat.

 

Thanks all for your help, but it turned out that this wasn't something I could have realistically fixed myself anyway.

 

Becky

[Rojo]

Yup, my new engine has arrived and is due to be fitted over the next few weeks

 

Someone mechanically-minded came and had a look at my old engine; he too thinks that the issue is pistons / rings, and he is buying it from me for a project.

 

Am just pleased now that the whole drama is over with, and I will have my boat back up and running with a shiny new engine and more power which my boat really needed as the engine was on the small side for it anyway. It makes sense, as I plan to be spending time on rivers now, which I wasn't when I bought the boat.

 

Thanks all for your help, but it turned out that this wasn't something I could have realistically fixed myself anyway.

 

Becky

 

Good to hear things are moving forward. Hope you get the new engine up and running soon. Let us know when you do!