Boat mechanic

[Timleech]

I think you are missing the point Chris.

You dont need a bit of paper to have scientific knowledge.

As an example, I am 37 and studied as a plumber when I left school and fitted many many boilers over the years.

Im not corgi registered but my 20 year old brother is.

Who do you want fitting your boiler?

Lets not get anal!!

 

If you delve deeper into Wikipedia, you'll find quite a bit of discussion about what 'Engineer' should mean

 

Such as:-

Engineer: - Proper meaning of the word?

 

It would seem to me that the roots of the word Engineer relate to the word engine, or in a general sense, any kind of machine or tool. The word does not, or should not, imply knowledge of a mathematical/theoretical nature, yet it has acquired that meaning through its continual use (or its mis-application?) by academics to refer to certificates, qualifications and titles.

 

IIRC the word engine itself predates the industrial era, and could in fact refer to any mechanical tool, not necessarily a powerplant. I am reasonably sure that drivers of 19thC American locos were properly termed Engineers. The term engineer in its rightful use therefore implies a degree of physical skill or competence in controlling a machine.

 

Historically, some sources suggest that the term may originate from old French or Latin, and refer to the builders of (mediaeval or earlier) war machines, which were of course known as siege engines.

 

The misapplication of the word (to mean academic achievement, applied science or whatever) has become so universal that it is now inescapable, however it does raise the important question as to whether the holders of academic qualifications can rightfully expect to reserve the term for their own exclusive use.

 

Yes the term is certainly misused/over used, but I can't see it being narrowed down to being only used for 'Professional Engineers'.

 

Tim

[carlt]

I knew a bloke who worked as a production line worker for Courtaulds, when I was a research engineer.

 

For a hobby he built and ran miniature steam engines. Something I was incapable of doing.

 

I had the bits of paper and job title, but who was the engineer?

[David Schweizer]

Whilst I understand why some Professionally trained Engineers resent people who are technically trained Fitters or Mechanics calling themselves Engineers, it is surely being a bit precious.

 

Next time you visit your Doctor try telling him/her they should not use that title because they are not an MD (Doctor of Medicine) but an MB (Batchelor of Medicine)

Edited November 13, 2008 by David Schweizer

[Nine of Hearts]

Whilst I understand why some Professionally trained Engineers resent people who are technically trained Fitters or Mechanics calling themselves Engineers, it is surely being a bit precious.

 

Next time you visit your Doctor try telling him/her they should not use that title because they are not an MD (Doctor of Medicine) but an MB (Batchelor of Medicine)

 

I thought "engineer" was a term used to describe the proximity of an engine? As in "this engineer", as opposed to "that enginethere".

[Timleech]

Whilst I understand why some Professionally trained Engineers resent people who are technically trained Fitters or Mechanics calling themselves Engineers, it is surely being a bit precious.

 

They want to develop a closed shop

 

Next time you visit your Doctor try telling him/her they should not use that title because they are not an MD (Doctor of Medicine) but an MB (Batchelor of Medicine)

 

The point my father (Chartered Engineer) used to make, though with tongue more in cheek than out

 

Tim

[jeb]

I thought "engineer" was a term used to describe the proximity of an engine? As in "this engineer", as opposed to "that enginethere".

 

 

 

Good one

 

Very much like the "expert"

x being an unknown quantity and spurt being a drip under pressure.

[Machpoint005]

Just to add some weight to Chris W's side of the discussion...

 

If the title 'Engineer' isn't desirable, why do mechanics, fitters, plumbers and technicians all want to call themselves engineers?

An engineer isn't someone who fixes engines, and certainly isn't someone who drives a train.

 

Medical doctors might be 'merely' MBs but they are also ChBs and have five years of postgraduate study behind them, as well as doing CPD. I think they have earned the title 'Doctor' even if their degrees don't include a doctorate (but many do have one). Professional Engineers are seeking a similar understanding of their qualifications and experience, and this has been rumbling on for at least 30 years (to my knowledge). They may also be doctors (PhD), but those I know personally tend to be prouder of their CEng than their PhD.

 

BTW, when British Gas (for example) tell me they will send an engineer out, I always tell them I'd prefer a qualified fitter. Our technological society needs both, so let's not confuse them.

[stewey]

As I posted previously:

 

From the Compact Oxford English Dictionery:

 

Engineer

 

• noun

1 a person qualified in engineering.

2 a person who maintains or controls an engine or machine.

3 a person who skilfully originates something.

 

• verb

1 design and build.

2 contrive to bring about

 

Stewey

[carlt]

An engineer isn't someone who fixes engines, and certainly isn't someone who drives a train.

But how about someone capable of turning the individual parts to make a working steam train, without an 'o'level to his name?

 

Does possessing engineering skills preclude you from the title, because you haven't got the bit of paper.

 

All the paper does is provide proof, to a prospective employer, that you possess the necessary skills.

[Machpoint005]

What does the COED say about 'doctor' then?

 

But how about someone capable of turning the individual parts to make a working steam train, without an 'o'level to his name?

 

Does possessing engineering skills preclude you from the title, because you haven't got the bit of paper.

 

All the paper does is provide proof, to a prospective employer, that you possess the necessary skills.

You can be an Engineer without having 'O' levels provided that you have followed another route to Chartered or Incorporated status. It's not just a 'bit of paper', it's a confirmation that you have those skills and experience, and that you follow a Code of Conduct when applying them professionally. This includes Continuous Professional Development.

 

Just possessing engineering skills doesn't make you an Engineer.

[Timleech]

But how about someone capable of turning the individual parts to make a working steam train, without an 'o'level to his name?

 

Does possessing engineering skills preclude you from the title, because you haven't got the bit of paper.

 

All the paper does is provide proof, to a prospective employer, that you possess the necessary skills.

 

There is a distinction between 'Engineer' and 'Professional (or Chartered) Engineer', the latter are quite right to want to protect that status but not to keep the 'Engineer' term just to themselves.

 

Tim

[Nine of Hearts]

...and certainly isn't someone who drives a train.

 

Oh yes it is! (it is pantomime season, after all) Train drivers have been referred to as "engineers" since trains were invented. We can't just make a Pol-pot re-writing of history because some people in the 21st century are deciding to get all protectionist about a word. While we're on about trains, how about if said drivers of trains started getting all huffy about brides' frocks. "Hmph, call that a train, where's the carriages?...".

[carlt]

Just possessing engineering skills doesn't make you an Engineer.

Yes it does, except to those too precious to accept that someone who hasn't spent years at college can be as skilled as someone who has.

 

 

 

There is a distinction between 'Engineer' and 'Professional (or Chartered) Engineer', the latter are quite right to want to protect that status but not to keep the 'Engineer' term just to themselves.

 

Tim

Precisely!

Edited November 13, 2008 by carlt

[David Schweizer]

Oh yes it is! (it is pantomime season, after all) Train drivers have been referred to as "engineers" since trains were invented. We can't just make a Pol-pot re-writing of history because some people in the 21st century are deciding to get all protectionist about a word. While we're on about trains, how about if said drivers of trains started getting all huffy about brides' frocks. "Hmph, call that a train, where's the carriages?...".

Not quite correct. The term Engineer used to describe a train driver comes from America, and comes from the job title "Locomotive Engineer" a term which in the UK is used to describe someone who Designs or Builds Locomtives.

 

In the UK the term used to describe a train driver is normally Engine Driver" usually shortened to "Driver" Even the most prestigious drivers were not called Engineers, A former colleage of mine used to live next door to one of the GWR's top drivers, he was afforded the title "Royal Train Driver"

Edited November 13, 2008 by David Schweizer

[Guest TerryL]

Just to add some weight to Chris W's side of the discussion...

 

If the title 'Engineer' isn't desirable, why do mechanics, fitters, plumbers and technicians all want to call themselves engineers?

An engineer isn't someone who fixes engines, and certainly isn't someone who drives a train.

 

Medical doctors might be 'merely' MBs but they are also ChBs and have five years of postgraduate study behind them, as well as doing CPD. I think they have earned the title 'Doctor' even if their degrees don't include a doctorate (but many do have one). Professional Engineers are seeking a similar understanding of their qualifications and experience, and this has been rumbling on for at least 30 years (to my knowledge). They may also be doctors (PhD), but those I know personally tend to be prouder of their CEng than their PhD.

 

BTW, when British Gas (for example) tell me they will send an engineer out, I always tell them I'd prefer a qualified fitter. Our technological society needs both, so let's not confuse them.

I think you are a little unsure of your social standing if you think heating or marine or even military engineers are going to undermine your qualifications. If someone calls themseves an electronics engineer for example and they are not then I agree, shoot them. You do not have a monopoly on the word "engineer", it has been in use well before your field of technology or whatever was invented. There are other categories of engineer quite entitled to use the word as I will continue to do.

 

A heating engineer is correctly called because he has to design the system that he is installing for it to work safely, effectively and be controlled easily by others. It's not rocket science as they say but it still demands a level of intelligence, calculation, physics knowledge, legal requirements, safety knowledge, equipment knowledge, experience and design skill etc. Next time you call for a qualified fitter don't be surprised if he sits around all day waiting for someone to turn up with a degree to design the system and make decisions! It doesn't demand degree level for domestic installations but it's still engineering. Get over it!

 

I follow a van yesterday sign written with Vehicle Surgeon Ltd, what's that all about then?

[Nine of Hearts]

I stand corrected, but I'm still not going to be bullied out of the use of a common english term with a widely understood meaning by the freemasonry of an elitist cabal.

 

In what way is playing with trains mis-spending your youth? Sounds like an excellent way to spend a youth to me.

[David Schweizer]

I stand corrected, but I'm still not going to be bullied out of the use of a common english term with a widely understood meaning by the freemasonry of an elitist cabal.

In what way is playing with trains mis-spending your youth? Sounds like an excellent way to spend a youth to me.

Ah Ha! you spotted that bit before I deleted it.

[Guest TerryL]

Not quite correct. The term Engineer used to describe a train driver comes from America, and comes from the job title "Locomotive Engineer" a term which in the UK is used to describe someone who Designs or Builds Locomtives.

 

In the UK the term used to describe a train driver is normally Engine Driver" usually shortened to "Driver" Even the most prestigious drivers were not called Engineers, A former colleage of mine used to live next door to one of the GWR's top drivers, he was afforded the title "Royal Train Driver"

As I pointed out earlier many thousands of servicemen were and still are afforded the title "Royal Engineer" and do their training at the Royal School of Military Engineering! Explain that away.

[Gary Peacock]

As I pointed out earlier many thousands of servicemen were and still are afforded the title "Royal Engineer" and do their training at the Royal School of Military Engineering! Explain that away.

 

Military engineering is rather a broad remit though.

 

But you do have a point.

[John Orentas]

Military engineering is rather a broad remit though.

 

But you do have a point.

 

 

I think it is possible to get very snooty about 'titles'.. I have a very snobby brother who would insist the he was "A member of the profession" in a very dewy eyed sort of way, (He was a teacher).

 

Sometime during the 70's, the teachers went out on strike for more pay and for some reason they got about 30% pay-rise, he was a Socialist from that day on.

[Machpoint005]

There is a distinction between 'Engineer' and 'Professional (or Chartered) Engineer', the latter are quite right to want to protect that status but not to keep the 'Engineer' term just to themselves.

 

Tim

Exactly so. Nothing elitist about it - just accurist (?)

[grahoom]

My passion is creating music and music technology I don't have a music tech degree but I know people who do who ask me for advice!

 

I had a listen to your track linked on your profile... do you only do covers? do you use your music for anything or is it just a hobby?

[David Schweizer]

As I pointed out earlier many thousands of servicemen were and still are afforded the title "Royal Engineer" and do their training at the Royal School of Military Engineering! Explain that away.

I agree.

 

Not sure what that has to do with Railway Engine Drivers though.

[carlt]

Exactly so. Nothing elitist about it - just accurist (?)

But this discussion wandered this way because someone objected to the use of the term "Engineer", without the prefix.

[Sir Nibble]

Around 75000 years ago a character called Homo Hydelburgensis made a flint hand axe. He was at the time the most qualified and experienced engineer in the world.

I may be wrong but I believe Gearge Stephenson had no formal qualifications, nor Georg Simon Ohm.

If you are doing engineering in any of it's forms you are by definition an engineer in much the same way that pocketing a fiver you found on a bar makes you a thief even without conviction and although you don't earn a living that way or define yourself as such. An architect may be proud of what he has built, oh yea, put it up yourself did you mate?

How about the "Work study engineer"? Time and motion man, no connection with engineering at all.

I make my living teaching fundamentals to engineering students but dare not describe myself as either teacher ('till I have completed my cert ed) nor engineer despite the fact that I teach and I engineer.

Time perhaps to recognise the vital contribution made by us all instead of defending an outdated and counter productive hierarchy.