Boat mechanic

[Nine of Hearts]

... a character called Homo Hydelburgensis made a flint hand axe.

What an atrocious thing to call a child. What were his parents thinking? I bet he was bullied at school. I wonder if that's what led him to develop the axe?

[carlt]

James Brindley was educated by his mum.

[Gary Peacock]

I agree.

 

Not sure what that has to do with Railway Engine Drivers though.

 

Actually Railway Engine Driver was one of their trades upto relatively recently, 507 STRE still provide railway support to the British military. (A number of preserved railways used to also provide training in the operation of steam locomotives to them in the 80's, so at that point someone must have had somewhere in mind to invade that still had steam! )

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longmoor_Military_Railway

[Machpoint005]

James Brindley was educated by his mum.

Everybody is.

[carlt]

Everybody is.

Not true, but even if it was...

 

James Brindley received no other education, than that which his mother provided, at home.

[Sir Nibble]

Not true, but even if it was...

 

James Brindley received no other education, than that which his mother provided, at home.

Then he'd best join George Stephenson in the box market "not an engineer".

[John Orentas]

Not true, but even if it was...

James Brindley received no other education, than that which his mother provided, at home.

 

 

There is something about the British character, about every engineering pioneer has this silly story attached to them, Brindley is a good example, I have met several people who will swear that he was close to being illiterate.. A very short walk off the Caldon Canal will take you to the Brindley Museum.. I regret I have never been there but I am told that you can inspect many of his original exercise books and manuscripts.. Copper Plate handwriting I am told.

 

I don't think it is so much a 'qualification' issue as one of social class status.. Only a chap with the "right" background could design an iron ship.

 

Oh yes it is said that those stupid Egyptians could not possibly construct a square or triangle, spacemen had to do it for them.

[stewey]

There is something about the British character, about every engineering pioneer has this silly story attached to them, Brindley is a good example, I have met several people who will swear that he was close to being illiterate.. A very short walk off the Caldon Canal will take you to the Brindley Museum.. I regret I have never been there but I am told that you can inspect many of his original exercise books and manuscripts.. Copper Plate handwriting I am told.

Brindley Water Mill at Leek information here:

 

http://www.brindleymill.net/

 

Well worth a visit.

 

Stewey

[Guest TerryL]

Actually Railway Engine Driver was one of their trades upto relatively recently, 507 STRE still provide railway support to the British military. (A number of preserved railways used to also provide training in the operation of steam locomotives to them in the 80's, so at that point someone must have had somewhere in mind to invade that still had steam! )

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longmoor_Military_Railway

That was more likely to be for using steam locomotives in invaded foreign lands, not so daft!

 

There is an ex RE locomotive called The Royal Engineer in the Isle of Wight. My father-in-law, a keen train enthusiast was treated to a day on the footplate helping to run the train. Apparently he lost a stone in weight that day shovelling coal!

[David Schweizer]

James Brindley was educated by his mum.

Not true, but even if it was...

James Brindley received no other education, than that which his mother provided, at home.

 

Receiving education at home was not particularly unusual at the time. He came from a fairly wealthy family of Yeoman Farmers and as there were very few established Schools, most Middle Class children were normally educated at home by their parents. He learnt his engineering skills as a Millwright's Aprentice.

 

Although Brindley's parents were not Quakers, His mother came from a Quaker family and all Quaker Children were required to be taught how to to read and write. That would undoubtably be the source of his copper plate writing (mentioned by John Orentas) which was favoured by the Quakers.

Edited November 13, 2008 by David Schweizer

[chris w]

A heating engineer is correctly called because he has to design the system that he is installing for it to work safely, effectively and be controlled easily by others. It's not rocket science as they say but it still demands a level of intelligence, calculation, physics knowledge, legal requirements, safety knowledge, equipment knowledge, experience and design skill etc.

 

That's not designing in the engineering sense. You are merely taking components and plumbing them together in the recommended way, as laid down by various regulatory bodies. I agree it needs skill and care (atributes which some plumbers don't seem to have by reputation) etc but it's not engineering - it's fitting.

 

The engineer is the person who designed the actual boiler or designed the actual pump etc.

 

When I create electronic circuits to carry out a certain function, my design would be different from another electronic engineer's design and his/her from a third engineer's design. All may work perfectly, some circuits will be cleverer than others in their application and some will find clever ways to use less components.

 

Some individual circuit functions are so standard that probably every engineer will use certain standard chips as building blocks. But the whole circuit won't be this way. Every engineer has his or her way of making the finished circuit unique. Otherwise it's just akin to fitting.

 

Programming microprocessors is a good case in point. No two engineers will program them in the same way even though the task is to produce the same end result. It's an intellectual challenge and totally absorbing.

 

With boilers, there is not an infinite number of ways of connecting them up. I have never heard a plumber say, "I came up with this great idea for a different way to connect up a boiler". But NEW boiler designs, say with increased efficiency (designed by engineers) are often created.

Edited November 13, 2008 by chris w

[Gary Peacock]

That was more likely to be for using steam locomotives in invaded foreign lands, not so daft!

 

There is an ex RE locomotive called The Royal Engineer in the Isle of Wight. My father-in-law, a keen train enthusiast was treated to a day on the footplate helping to run the train. Apparently he lost a stone in weight that day shovelling coal!

 

Or maybe the Strategic Steam Reserve wasn't just an urban myth?

 

http://www.willys-mb.co.uk/strategic-reserve.htm

 

Or maybe it was!

[Nine of Hearts]

Considering that the english word "engineer" has a common usage which does not have the tight definition you wish to impose on it, we should come up with a new word for exceptionally qualified technical experts? That way we can all show the due deference whenever one enters a room.

[Machpoint005]

That's not designing in the engineering sense. You are merely taking components and plumbing them together in the recommended way, as laid down by various regulatory bodies. I agree it needs skill and care (atributes which some plumbers don't seem to have by reputation) etc but it's not engineering - it's fitting.

 

The engineer is the person who designed the actual boiler or designed the actual pump etc.

 

When I create electronic circuits to carry out a certain function, my design would be different from another electronic engineer's design and his/her from a third engineer's design. All may work perfectly, some circuits will be cleverer than others in their application and some will find clever ways to use less components.

 

Some individual circuit functions are so standard that probably every engineer will use certain standard chips as building blocks. But the whole circuit won't be this way. Every engineer has his or her way of making the finished circuit unique. Otherwise it's just akin to fitting.

 

Programming microprocessors is a good case in point. No two engineers will program them in the same way even though the task is to produce the same end result. It's an intellectual challenge and totally absorbing.

 

With boilers, there is not an infinite number of ways of connecting them up. I have never heard a plumber say, "I came up with this great idea for a different way to connect up a boiler". But NEW boiler designs, say with increased efficiency (designed by engineers) are often created.

 

...what he said. I concur.

[carlt]

...what he said. I concur.

But they do not need to be qualified (or chartered), to design.

[David Schweizer]

But they do not need to be qualified (or chartered), to design.

Well in a sense they do, but there is such a thing as being qualified by experience. Fred Dibnah is perhaps one of the more famous recent examples, although he never called himself an Engineer, preferring the term Back Street Mechanic.

[jeb]

Well in a sense they do, but there is such a thing as being qualified by experience. Fred Dibnah is perhaps one of the more famous recent examples, although he never called himself an Engineer, preferring the term Back Street Mechanic.

 

Almost there but the degree, like paramedic,paralegal how about paraengineer ?

[David Schweizer]

Almost there but the degree, like paramedic,paralegal how about paraengineer ?

You are mistaking "qualified" in the sense that they have suffuicient skill, knowledge and experience to do a job , and "Academically Qualified" meaning that they have demonstarted to an Eductional Instuitute that they theoreticly know how to do something.

 

My brother in law has a degree in Art and Design, in their final year they had to design a chair, he was the only one who knew how to work wood and make a joint. But they all got their degree and were let loose on the world (probably all now working for Ikea!!!)

Edited November 13, 2008 by David Schweizer

[US Marines]

Its interesting to me that, in law, you can be an Expert Witness without any formal qualifications. Essentially, all you have to do is convince the Court that you have sufficient expertise to provide valid input.

 

Obviously, this is easier to do if you have a string of qualifications and Fellowships etc after your name but this does not have to be the case. There are currently all sorts of organisations such as the Council for the Registration of Forensic Practitioners and the Expert Witness Institute that have struggled to define the minimum requirements for a bona fide Expert but, essentially, it comes down to a whole combination of things including peer review. Therefore, in law, you can be an 'engineering Expert' with no formal qualifications at all.

 

My personal view - which is why I agree with chris w - is that the term 'Engineer' has been debased so far in the UK as to make it virtually meaningless. Engineering is a profession that should, by rights, take its place next to medical doctors etc, with rates of pay that reflect this. Guys who come out and fix my washing machine are not the same and should not be called the same, as guys that design and oversee the technical aspects of the construction of major civil engineering projects. The fact that they are, devalues the skills and experience of the latter.

 

However much it might not seem 'fair', it is not as hard to fix my washing machine as it is to design a bridge that won't fall down (when taking into account all of the necessary constraints).

 

I'm fairly confident that with a manual, the right tool kit, an unskilled mate to help me, and access to the necessary spare parts, I could fix pretty much any problem that could possibly arise with my washing machine. But I know for an absolute fact that it would take rather more than that for me to design a new crossing for the Severn Estuary - and, although I am not an Engineer, I have assisted with the design of major bridges and tunnels in the past, so I already know something about how to solve the issues that I would encounter if I tried.

 

In my view, the term 'Engineer' should be protected and not bandied about willy-nilly.

[johnthebridge]

Its interesting to me that, in law, you can be an Expert Witness without any formal qualifications. Essentially, all you have to do is convince the Court that you have sufficient expertise to provide valid input.

 

Obviously, this is easier to do if you have a string of qualifications and Fellowships etc after your name but this does not have to be the case. There are currently all sorts of organisations such as the Council for the Registration of Forensic Practitioners and the Expert Witness Institute that have struggled to define the minimum requirements for a bona fide Expert but, essentially, it comes down to a whole combination of things including peer review. Therefore, in law, you can be an 'engineering Expert' with no formal qualifications at all.

 

My personal view - which is why I agree with chris w - is that the term 'Engineer' has been debased so far in the UK as to make it virtually meaningless. Engineering is a profession that should, by rights, take its place next to medical doctors etc, with rates of pay that reflect this. Guys who come out and fix my washing machine are not the same and should not be called the same, as guys that design and oversee the technical aspects of the construction of major civil engineering projects. The fact that they are, devalues the skills and experience of the latter.

 

However much it might not seem 'fair', it is not as hard to fix my washing machine as it is to design a bridge that won't fall down (when taking into account all of the necessary constraints).

 

I'm fairly confident that with a manual, the right tool kit, an unskilled mate to help me, and access to the necessary spare parts, I could fix pretty much any problem that could possibly arise with my washing machine. But I know for an absolute fact that it would take rather more than that for me to design a new crossing for the Severn Estuary - and, although I am not an Engineer, I have assisted with the design of major bridges and tunnels in the past, so I already know something about how to solve the issues that I would encounter if I tried.

 

In my view, the term 'Engineer' should be protected and not bandied about willy-nilly.

Agreed. A friend of a friend works for Ferrari. His title is "Dottore Ingegnere". Try taking that off him.

[Nine of Hearts]

...but the dictionary definition of the word engineer includes "a person who maintains or controls an engine". What you're proposing is purloining an existing term to suit your own ends and need for self aggrandizement. And do you really believe that because someone calls a gas-fitter an engineer that civil engineers and the like are paid less and afforded less respect?

 

If you want to see a real debasing of the term engineer, read "Player Piano".

Edited November 13, 2008 by Nine of Hearts

[carlt]

civil engineers and the like are paid less and afforded less respect?

Oi! I'm (was) a civil engineer and I'm on your side!

[US Marines]

And do you really believe that because someone calls a gas-fitter an engineer that civil engineers and the like are paid less and afforded less respect?

Sadly, yes.

 

...but the dictionary definition of the word engineer includes "a person who maintains or controls an engine". What you're proposing is purloining an existing term to suit your own ends and need for self aggrandizement.

 

I, personally, think the definition should be changed - and I am not an Engineer, so it is not to suit my own ends.

[Nine of Hearts]

Oi! I'm (was) a civil engineer and I'm on your side!

 

Apologies, I did not intend a slight on civil engineers. I trained as one myself, though only partially. They considered me more suited to architecture, which if you know anything of civil engineers, is pretty damning.

 

I used to be just as sniffy about the term "designer", insisting that a true "designer" worked within constraints and worked to find the best solutions with the materials at hand. I considered clothes "designers" etc, merely "stylists". Eventually I was laughed at and ignored enough times that I grew up and got a life.

[carlt]

Sadly, yes.

I'm not sure a chartered/qualified/real engineer should command any more respect than someone who is another kind of engineer.

 

Is it such a big deal that I may have stopped at school a bit longer than someone else?

 

I used to design plant, in the advanced materials sector but, if it went wrong, I'd ring a maintenance engineer (unchartered).

 

I may have known how and why something worked but I didn't always know why it didn't.