buying deisel

[Dusty]

Hi All

Dusty here and I have just done all my accounts for last weeks coal and diesel run to Oxford.

 

The Results will put some of you to rest and take the worry away from others.

 

My system is approved by HMRC and goes like this.

You declare to me on one of my forms your intended usage for the fuel you are about to buy. (read those words with care (about to buy)).

The south Oxford in stoppage and my customers are not moving, are on their long-term moorings, have taken winter moorings or are settled in one place. Some are moving or will be as soon as the stoppage is removed.

 

THE RESULTS

 

I sold: 2,525 litres

To 31 boats

The average declaration was 4.1% ranging from 50% to 5% or 0%

I will pay a total of £45.52 additional tax for the propulsion of craft in my area.

Not a lot extra considering a total value of £1,784 all taxes included.

 

My basic 100% domestic = 72ppl

At 60 porp to 40 dom = 98ppl

Full propulsion = £1.15ppl

 

So please don’t knock it, the alternative is you pay £122ppl for white (road) diesel delivered boat-to-boat or coal and diesel boats will go out of business. We can not compete with the likes of Sainsburys BP Shell Esso etc

 

I will update this after my Banbury run later this week.

Dusty

[chris w]

In case anyone didn't see this on another thread, here's my Excel spreadsheet of the effective price per litre based on any split. Simply note the base price displayed by the supplier, decide on your split and where the two cross is the true price PER LITRE. Simply multiply this price by the TOTAL number of litres bought. You will see that it agrees with Dusty's calcualtion (phew!)

 

I cannot post it as an excel sheet, as the forum doesn't have a way of doing it. So it's posted as a jpeg.

 

Chris

 

Edited November 10, 2008 by chris w

[Dusty]

Hi all

Dusty again

 

I think it would help if others than my customers had sight of my declaration, BUT please note this is for MY customers only.

All information is voluntary and intended to help you the customer make an informed and justifiable decision.

YOU the customer makes the declaration not me, I simply choose to accept you as a customer or not, as in any business.

It is important to note WE ALL HAVE TO MAKE THIS WORK or we will loose red diesel and the boat delivery service.

 

[Ray]

RDCOs' responsibilities

If you supply red diesel to private pleasure craft, you will be required to charge the purchaser the full rate of duty on fuel used for propulsion and pay the duty to us. This is a new requirement for fuel suppliers.

 

You are not responsible for ascertaining whether the fuel you sell to an individual is for propulsion of a private pleasure craft, although, if you suspect that is the case, you should remind the purchaser of their legal obligation to make a declaration and pay the full rate of duty. You are not responsible if the user fails to make a declaration or makes a false declaration.

 

Have I missed something (or has it been covered elsewhere)? Apologies if this has been done to death already.

 

". . . you will be required to charge the purchaser the full rate of duty on fuel used for propulsion . . . ". How can you require someone to do the impossible? Until the fuel is used it won't be possible to know whether it has actually been used for propulsion.

 

I cruise very little - a few weeks each year at the moment. I have an almost full tank and, if circumstances dictate that I don't cruise for another year or so and HMRC come calling after that time, how do I convince them that I haven't used any fuel and, therefore, haven't filled up since 1st November 2008? What happens if I don't cruise for 3 years - and I know some boats that don't move in that time? Will HMRC still believe me or will they think that I declared 0% for propulsion and have been cruising and simply ditched the declarations?

[magpie patrick]

So whose going to do the paperwork that is involved !

 

My staff have better things to do like repair boats at £35 and hour. So stop work, go to the pump, fill up, do the paperwork. half an hour. I think I will look at this.

 

Oh and nobody has mentioned that the duty free element only applies if you have diesel heating.

 

 

So if you do not have diesel heating we will charge the full rate.

 

Bargee Boy, it has been stated elswhere that the transactions takes 90 seconds assuming you need a calculator, I would reckon to serve fuel at all you are away from your job for five minutes whether there is a dec;aration involved or not. You are looking for an excuse not to bother.

Oh and nobody has mentioned that the duty free element only applies if you have diesel heating.

 

Something like rowlock. Poppy cock, piffle. You can run a diesel engine as a generator or to heat water through a calorifier, you don't need an eberspacher to use the diesel for domestics. Having done the sums, even we who use the boat primarily (but not exclusively) for cruising will be declaring 10 or 20% for non propulsion.

 

Our Marina may have the hassle free answer for them. Default is £1.20 a litre, but if you make a declaration they will rebate 40.66p a litre on every litre for domestic use. No declaration, no rebate.

[ditchcrawler]

Bargee Boy, it has been stated elswhere that the transactions takes 90 seconds assuming you need a calculator, I would reckon to serve fuel at all you are away from your job for five minutes whether there is a dec;aration involved or not. You are looking for an excuse not to bother.

Oh and nobody has mentioned that the duty free element only applies if you have diesel heating.

 

Something like rowlock. Poppy cock, piffle. You can run a diesel engine as a generator or to heat water through a calorifier, you don't need an eberspacher to use the diesel for domestics. Having done the sums, even we who use the boat primarily (but not exclusively) for cruising will be declaring 10 or 20% for non propulsion.

 

Our Marina may have the hassle free answer for them. Default is £1.20 a litre, but if you make a declaration they will rebate 40.66p a litre on every litre for domestic use. No declaration, no rebate.

Do the marina hang on to the duty they collect until the end of the year?

[magpie patrick]

Do the marina hang on to the duty they collect until the end of the year?

 

Fair question: I don't know. the point I was making is that (1) they are giving you the maximum price for the fuel (2) they will accept any declaration you care to make (3) no declaration is assumed to be 100% propulsion

[bottle]

RDCOs' responsibilities

If you supply red diesel to private pleasure craft, you will be required to charge the purchaser the full rate of duty on fuel used for propulsion and pay the duty to us. This is a new requirement for fuel suppliers.

 

You are not responsible for ascertaining whether the fuel you sell to an individual is for propulsion of a private pleasure craft, although, if you suspect that is the case, you should remind the purchaser of their legal obligation to make a declaration and pay the full rate of duty. You are not responsible if the user fails to make a declaration or makes a false declaration.

 

Have I missed something (or has it been covered elsewhere)? Apologies if this has been done to death already.

 

". . . you will be required to charge the purchaser the full rate of duty on fuel used for propulsion . . . ". How can you require someone to do the impossible? Until the fuel is used it won't be possible to know whether it has actually been used for propulsion.

 

I cruise very little - a few weeks each year at the moment. I have an almost full tank and, if circumstances dictate that I don't cruise for another year or so and HMRC come calling after that time, how do I convince them that I haven't used any fuel and, therefore, haven't filled up since 1st November 2008? What happens if I don't cruise for 3 years - and I know some boats that don't move in that time? Will HMRC still believe me or will they think that I declared 0% for propulsion and have been cruising and simply ditched the declarations?

 

As I stated on another thread, the declaration is what you expect to use the diesel for, if when you have used that diesel but not used as expected then you may, if you wish, adjust your expectations on the next fuel buying.

The best way to ensure that he HMRC are satisfied if they call is to keep a log and all receipts..

 

 

Do the marina hang on to the duty they collect until the end of the year?

 

Yes.

[denboy]

QUOTE (ditchcrawler @ Nov 10 2008, 08:36 PM) *

Do the marina hang on to the duty they collect until the end of the year?

 

 

Yes.

 

So at the end of the year the supplier will have earned interest on the money they have "held" in their bank for the tax man

[NB Alnwick]

QUOTE (ditchcrawler @ Nov 10 2008, 08:36 PM) *

Do the marina hang on to the duty they collect until the end of the year?

 

 

Yes.

 

So at the end of the year the supplier will have earned interest on the money they have "held" in their bank for the tax man

 

Yes but the Marina business is taxed on the profits it makes and that would include any interest earned.

As a tax payer, I don't begrudge a business that small 'perk'.

[ditchcrawler]

QUOTE (ditchcrawler @ Nov 10 2008, 08:36 PM) *

Do the marina hang on to the duty they collect until the end of the year?

 

 

Yes.

 

So at the end of the year the supplier will have earned interest on the money they have "held" in their bank for the tax man

You could see where I was coming from

[denboy]

You could see where I was coming from

price of derv round here has dropped by around 20/23p per ltr i haven't seen red at marinas going down though

[Chertsey]

In case anyone didn't see this on another thread, here's my Excel spreadsheet of the effective price per litre based on any split. Simply note the base price displayed by the supplier, decide on your split and where the two cross is the true price PER LITRE. Simply multiply this price by the TOTAL number of litres bought. You will see that it agrees with Dusty's calcualtion (phew!)

 

I cannot post it as an excel sheet, as the forum doesn't have a way of doing it. So it's posted as a jpeg.

 

Chris

 

 

Surely HMRC could produce something like this for suppliers to use? To be honest, I assumed that they would. Anyway, it proves that it's possible to do the calculation without paying for extra staff and any businesses that claim they can't are insulting the intelligence of both their customers and their staff.

[David Schweizer]

So whose going to do the paperwork that is involved !

 

My staff have better things to do like repair boats at £35 and hour. So stop work, go to the pump, fill up, do the paperwork. half an hour. I think I will look at this.

 

Oh and nobody has mentioned that the duty free element only applies if you have diesel heating.

 

 

So if you do not have diesel heating we will charge the full rate.

Well I'm all right then. I have diesel heating, it is called a BMC 1.5, It heats all the domestic water and circulates hot water round the central heating as well. As a side line it has a thing attached to it called an alternator which charges my batteries, and something called a propeller which makes the boat move forwards and backwards.

 

Very clever heater on my boat!!

Edited November 10, 2008 by David Schweizer

[mayalld]

Oh come off it. Anyone with the brains to man a shop and operate the till will be able to do a couple of sums on the calculator, if left clear instructions. 101 different splits, but only one formula for the calculation. The idea that you need a separate office staff to do it is ludicrous.

 

Sorry, but you are wrong here.

 

Many diesel retailers employ somebody who didn't do particularly well at school on minimum wage to do the job.

 

They will determine how much to charge, not by calculation, but by using a pre-printed ready reckoner. They do it this way, because their mathematical skills are not sufficient to have any confidence that they will manage to carry out the calculation in a formula properly, and they lack the ability to observe that the answer they got isn't right.

 

The fact that somebody can operate a till, and give out the change (often instructed by the till, rather than counting it out properly does not mean that they have the skills to do this calculation.

 

I'd settle for £15 for 90 seconds work. I make that £600 per hour.....

 

Well, once The oncosts of employing you are taken into consideration, there is only £10 left to pay you, and I'm afraid that it may only need your services twice a day, so a rather less stunning rate of pay.

 

If someone insists that I have to buy fuel at a 60/40 split, and I am running out of diesel, what can I do?

Walk to a garage who sells white and fill a can?

 

Take a 100/0 split?

 

AFAIK, there are no reported cases of retailers who won't also do 100% propulsion.

 

Hi all

Dusty again

 

I think it would help if others than my customers had sight of my declaration, BUT please note this is for MY customers only.

All information is voluntary and intended to help you the customer make an informed and justifiable decision.

YOU the customer makes the declaration not me, I simply choose to accept you as a customer or not, as in any business.

It is important to note WE ALL HAVE TO MAKE THIS WORK or we will loose red diesel and the boat delivery service.

 

 

Nice form.

 

However, it isn't quite right, as it implies that customers who want a 60/40 split need not sign the declaration. In actual fact a declaration is required at 60/40

 

In case anyone didn't see this on another thread, here's my Excel spreadsheet of the effective price per litre based on any split. Simply note the base price displayed by the supplier, decide on your split and where the two cross is the true price PER LITRE. Simply multiply this price by the TOTAL number of litres bought. You will see that it agrees with Dusty's calcualtion (phew!)

 

I cannot post it as an excel sheet, as the forum doesn't have a way of doing it. So it's posted as a jpeg.

 

Chris

 

 

Doesn't seem to do 55/45

 

In fact, it does 11 out of 101 possible splits

Edited November 11, 2008 by mayalld

[cotswoldsman]

Doesn't seem to do 55/35

 

In fact, it does 11 out of 101 possible splits

 

The way you seem to defend retailers guess you must be a diesel retailer. What really gives it away is the fact that with a 55/35 split you seem to be missing 10 somewhere so guess you must also be one of those people that can't do simple maths.

[mayalld]

The way you seem to defend retailers guess you must be a diesel retailer. What really gives it away is the fact that with a 55/35 split you seem to be missing 10 somewhere so guess you must also be one of those people that can't do simple maths.

 

I'm not a diesel retailer.

 

And, yup, screwed up that split!

[NB Alnwick]

Hi all

Dusty again

 

I think it would help if others than my customers had sight of my declaration, BUT please note this is for MY customers only.

All information is voluntary and intended to help you the customer make an informed and justifiable decision.

YOU the customer makes the declaration not me, I simply choose to accept you as a customer or not, as in any business.

It is important to note WE ALL HAVE TO MAKE THIS WORK or we will loose red diesel and the boat delivery service.

 

 

How refreshing! A supplier that, above all, has read the HMRC guidelines and considers the needs of his customers.

 

In my opinion, those other suppliers who think that they are more important than their customers and go out of their way to make things difficult on this issue will struggle to survive in business.

[cotswoldsman]

Doesn't seem to do 55/45

 

In fact, it does 11 out of 101 possible splits

 

See you have edited from 55/35.

 

I think you are spliting hairs here I think it is a great form and also think you are wrong with 101 possible splits.

[chris w]

Sorry Dave, I missed out 52.61%/47.39% as well!!! B*gger. I'd be astonshed if any of us (other than permanently residential @ 100% non-propulsion) could estimate our future usage of a tank of diesel to better than 10%.

 

 

 

Dusty

 

I notice that you state on your form that "Dusty reserves the right to accept or decline your declaration........". I'm afraid you can't do that as the declaration is MINE and I'm the one who may, at some time in the future, have to justify it to HMRC. You are specifically absolved from responsibility as to the veracity of my declaration in the HMRC guidelines so, even if you believe my declaration is patently incorrect, there's nothing you can do about it and nothing you need to do about it, other than point out it may not be correct. There is no comeback on you.

 

On a general point of law, with regard to your form, even if you were allowed to refuse my declaration (which actually you aren't) it's no good putting it on the form. There would need to be a prominent notice to this effect displayed on your boat BEFORE the person filled up. The reason for this is that the "Contract of Sale" does not take place when I pay, but at that instant when I accept your offer by saying "fill 'er up please". The only conditions that apply to that sale, if not previously displayed, is the price, which one assumes is displayed.

 

Chris

[mayalld]

See you have edited from 55/35.

 

I think you are spliting hairs here I think it is a great form and also think you are wrong with 101 possible splits.

 

Yes, no point in leaving a mistake unfixed!

 

Why do you think that I'm wrong with 101 possible splits?

[magpie patrick]

Yes, no point in leaving a mistake unfixed!

 

Why do you think that I'm wrong with 101 possible splits?

 

Dave, technically you are right, given estimates in integer values from 100/0 to 0/100. If you drop the requirements for integer values then the possibilities are infinite.

 

However, this is a declaration of your ESTIMATE of usage, and I suspect HMRC aren't interested in 53/47 splits. If there is a hole in the ready reckoner, it's that it needs 75/25 and 25/75 as I would estimate "about a quarter" of my fuel is non-propulsion. That said, Chris's ready reckoner could be made up in 5% bands and it would still fit on the average cash dessk

 

In otherwords, while someone has the right to declare 73/27, I'd put them in the "awkward sod" bracket

[mayalld]

Dave, technically you are right, given estimates in integer values from 100/0 to 0/100. If you drop the requirements for integer values then the possibilities are infinite.

 

However, this is a declaration of your ESTIMATE of usage, and I suspect HMRC aren't interested in 53/47 splits. If there is a hole in the ready reckoner, it's that it needs 75/25 and 25/75 as I would estimate "about a quarter" of my fuel is non-propulsion. That said, Chris's ready reckoner could be made up in 5% bands and it would still fit on the average cash dessk

 

In otherwords, while someone has the right to declare 73/27, I'd put them in the "awkward sod" bracket

 

OK, I think that we are all agreed that non-integer splits are very awkward sod stuff, and that really HMRC should have made it clear that they aren't allowed.

 

OTOH, allowing for a 5% granularity isn't unreasonable.

 

In addition, people who live aboard, and cruise very little may well wish to declare 4/96 3/97 2/98 or 1/99

[chris w]

In addition, people who live aboard, and cruise very little may well wish to declare 4/96 3/97 2/98 or 1/99

.......................or they are maybe losing the will to live

[alan_fincher]

Sorry, but you are wrong here.

 

Many diesel retailers employ somebody who didn't do particularly well at school on minimum wage to do the job.

 

They will determine how much to charge, not by calculation, but by using a pre-printed ready reckoner. They do it this way, because their mathematical skills are not sufficient to have any confidence that they will manage to carry out the calculation in a formula properly, and they lack the ability to observe that the answer they got isn't right.

 

The fact that somebody can operate a till, and give out the change (often instructed by the till, rather than counting it out properly does not mean that they have the skills to do this calculation.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well, once The oncosts of employing you are taken into consideration, there is only £10 left to pay you, and I'm afraid that it may only need your services twice a day, so a rather less stunning rate of pay.

Dave,

 

It really matters not one jot to me whether every outlet selling fuel is employing sales staff with PHDs, or ones who are incapable of adding 1 to 1 and arriving at 2.

 

It's obvious already that many coal boats and canal-side operators have been more than capable of gearing up to accommodating any sensible split declared by the boater. Whether this is by printed ready reckoner, Excel spread sheet or some clever programming of the till, I really don't care, as long as it delivers the correct answer.

 

You are more than welcome to take your business to any supplier that enforces arbitrary restrictions that you feel are justifiable, but which I do not.

 

Whilst there are those prepared to play by the spirit of the Revenue requirement, I know where my business will be going.

 

Whilst there may be a bit more admin for those I see as doing it right, I believe they will benefit, as people transfer their loyalties to them, away from some more inflexible supplier. In many case this will result in non-fuels sales that that business might not otherwise have had, I believe.

 

Alan