CHALLENGER - BOAT SOLD TOO CHEAP??

[Laurence Hogg]

As a creditor of Challenger I and others are very worried about news which is being heard about "Apache". If what I have heard is true apparently this boat has been sold for £16000 at auction. This is a virtually new 70ft Norton Canes built boat, with a fitted back cabin and Gardner 2LW. The sale price is unrealistic and any day of the week this boat would have fetched £65-70K. I have been given a buyers name and a boatyard involved, the combination of the two has a Challenger connection. Does anyone know of this deal?? Administators have not been in contact with any creditors as far as I know, which seems a little odd.

[sarahavfc]

The boat has to be worth around £70,000. It's a very disirable boat, 70ft tug style, which has a back cabin and engine room, the rest of the boat is yet to be fitted and is in "sailaway" form. Also a full paint job and the Gardner 2LW is installed.

[John Orentas]

I don't see it that way, if the boat sold for £16K at auction, that is it's true value and anyway the vendors pressumably had the oportunity to set a reserve price.. If people are happy to accept what others may think are grossly inflated prices in one year they should not be kicking if the market goes the other way in the next.

 

Most of us are aware that the country is going through a difficult time, I am surprised that there are a few people are not aware of that.

[alan_fincher]

I don't see it that way, if the boat sold for £16K at auction, that is it's true value.

If I put my boat up for auction, but only publicise that to a couple of not very interested people, it may well sell, but I'd argue not for it's "true value".

 

If this boat had been for auction, and that auction had been well publicised in the boating community, it would clearly have sold for at least several times the £16K figure. I don't see how anybody can suggest otherwise.

 

Something has to be fishy about this sale.

 

Perhaps it was put in Stanley Gibbons stamp auctions ?

 

Alan

[bottle]

Laurence

 

Sorry

 

I agree with John.

 

The ones at fault are those that put it up for sale at auction without, presumably, putting a reserve on it.

 

If it is a new boat does it have any paperwork, RCD etc. this would reduce its value if not available.

 

As to the buyer/boatyard being connected to Challenger then if you think there is 'fraud' taking place go to the correct authorities.

 

I realise that being a creditor is not nice (an understatement) and wish you well in the future.

[sarahavfc]

It's obvious that £16,000 is not the boats true market value! How can a nearly boat that has had £70,000 + spent on it be worth £16,000??

 

A Gardner 2LW will set you back about £12,000, you can add another £3-4 k for fitting it, then theres a £7k paint job, a shell which will be around £35,000, with steel prices today you would pay even more. The back cabin, sprayfoaming, etc. The list goes on.

 

I have no doubts in my mind there is something dodgy about this deal, how come none of the creditors knew about this auction? How come nobody on the internet has mentioned it. And why was it was sold to someone who has very close connections to Mr. Rimmer?

[bottle]

Without retracting my previous post.

 

I agree if this boat had been in a marina/brokerage it would have sold for more but it was not, it was placed in and auction.

 

Proviso: If all paperwork was correct.

 

The value of the boat was that, that someone was willing to pay, at that moment.

 

If there has been 'wrong doing' contact the authorities.

[bag 'o' bones]

The boat was sold at auction without a reserve one would assume.

 

16,000 grand was what the punters were prepared to pay for the boat on the day. Simple as that.

 

The boat may be *worth* 70 grand, but just like house prices boats are subject to the same market fluctuations.

 

Also it doesn't matter how much a boat cost to build at re-sale time it just cannot be taken into consideration. For example if spent 10 grand restoring my old Nissan sports car which at this point in time is worth about 500 quid, would it be worth 10,500 after restoration? No.

 

Bit of a no brainer really.

Edited August 31, 2008 by bag 'o' bones

[John Orentas]

As with most things in life, nothing is perfect but an auction price is as near as you will get.. If anyone however is suggesting that some form of corruption is involved then it is up to the vendors to do something about it.

[alan_fincher]

But if the seller put it in a very obscure auction, and omitted to tell anybody but their preferred buyer ?........

 

I know nothing of this case, and the OP reports only that he has heard it has been auctioned for £16K.

 

If I had known it was for sale, I would willingly have paid a great deal more for it than £16K, with total confidence that I could have resold it for a great deal more. (Although more likely would have sold current boat, and kept this one!)

 

If the story is true, then something is suspect. Boat values may have fallen, but this story, (if it is as told), is just stark raving mad IMO.

[Timleech]

But if the seller put it in a very obscure auction, and omitted to tell anybody but their preferred buyer ?........

 

I know nothing of this case, and the OP reports only that he has heard it has been auctioned for £16K.

 

If I had known it was for sale, I would willingly have paid a great deal more for it than £16K, with total confidence that I could have resold it for a great deal more. (Although more likely would have sold current boat, and kept this one!)

 

If the story is true, then something is suspect. Boat values may have fallen, but this story, (if it is as told), is just stark raving mad IMO.

 

Like so many things, speculation without being in possession of all the facts is just that, speculation. The news media do it all the time, especially since the advent of 'rolling news', it's really irritating.

 

It sounds dubious on the surface, but surprising things do happen at auctions. I've bought stuff at internationally publicised auction for a fraction of what some would see as their true 'worth', but those people didn't take the opportunity to bid at the time. (not in the financial league been discussed here, it has to be said)

Is what sounds to me like an upmarket sailaway really 'worth' 70K in a distress sale?

 

I've no idea what rules apply in this sort of instance, how hard the vendors have to try to get the best price. On the surface, it does sound as though they didn't try very hard but we don't know enough hard fact.

 

Tim

[bargiepat]

I don't see it that way, if the boat sold for £16K at auction, that is it's true value

 

 

Hi John,

 

 

You are talking absolute rubbish.............

 

 

Regards, Patrick.

[alan_fincher]

Is what sounds to me like an upmarket sailaway really 'worth' 70K in a distress sale?

Probably not,and it would be unrealistic in an auction to expect anything like this, of course.

 

People spending that kind of money would clearly to have preferred a choice about porthole layout, etc, to get the fit out they want.

 

I'd also suggest the 70 foot length would drive a lot of people away, (not to mention having the Rimmer's name sign written on it ).

 

But I can't see how anybody can argue £16K is sensible. If the new owner decides they don't want it, I'll take it off their hands for that straight away.

 

As, I suspect, would the boat's builders ?

 

But you are correct - there is often more to reported stories than meets the eye, and I fully accept that.

[Machpoint005]

I agree with John. The boat was worth what someone paid for it on the day.

 

If anyone thinks it's worth more, they should put their hand in their pocket and offer the successful bidder 70k (or whatever). I imagine the buyer would be delighted with an instant 54k profit. The new owner would then have the satisfaction of having paid the 'right' price.

 

Not got 70k to hand to spend in this way? Then the whole thing is nothing whatever to do with you.

[Night Hawk]

As a recent purchaser of a 62 foot ex Challenger Stealth who paid a fair price for the boat, I noticed 'Georgia' in dry dock at Middlewich.....Georgia being a Challenger Stealth Hudson Tug...The guys who were working on it spoke poorly of the condition of the steelwork and the dire condition of the R N engine and how it just wasn't worth the 70k asking price!

 

I guess anything is only worth what someone will pay for it.....I'd have paid 16K for it!

 

A

[Hobson]

Hi John,

 

 

You are talking absolute rubbish.............

 

 

Regards, Patrick.

 

And yet I hear frequently from people who say the opposite scenario is 'just capitalism'.

 

'Its worth what people will pay for it .. ' is the usual caveat employed as defense when items sell for far more than their actual worth but rarely, if ever, does anyone bemoan a lack of moral fibre. In fact that phrase has become so commonplace now, people are no longer even concerned about any stigma that may be attached to them and their greed, it has simply become acceptable!

 

Like the man who places a bet on a 'dead cert' then cries foul when it comes last. That's life, you can't have it every which way you please.

 

That aside, I have friends who work in insolvency, reposession and asset management etc. The reality there is that 'public' auctions are often a formality with any serious assets being bought by proxy, usually by former owners! Its a very corrupt industry. That is one of the reasons why when a chapter 11 comes on the books, any reputable company will invite a reputable firm of asset managers to oversee the process of placating creditors. Since the banks are often the biggest creditors, they tend to make sure they get the best returns on 'core' assets. When its private capital, you hear stories like this put around. Sometimes they are true, sometimes they are Chinese whispers. Personally, I tend to err on the side of cynicism ..

 

- Hobbs

[bargiepat]

That aside, I have friends who work in insolvency, reposession and asset management etc. The reality there is that 'public' auctions are often a formality with any serious assets being bought by proxy, usually by former owners! Its a very corrupt industry. That is one of the reasons why when a chapter 11 comes on the books, any reputable company will invite a reputable firm of asset managers to oversee the process of placating creditors. Since the banks are often the biggest creditors, they tend to make sure they get the best returns on 'core' assets. When its private capital, you hear stories like this put around. Sometimes they are true, sometimes they are Chinese whispers. Personally, I tend to err on the side of cynicism ..

 

- Hobbs

 

 

Hi, Can I take it then that you agee that if this had been put on Ebay or with a reputable auction it would have fetched more than 16,000 pounds.

 

Patrick.

[Hobson]

Hi, Can I take it then that you agee that if this had been put on Ebay or with a reputable auction it would have fetched more than 16,000 pounds.

 

Patrick.

 

Certainly. But .. I am no expert. My friends are just as subjective and opionated as me.

 

I doubt we can really get into the meat of the scenario without knowing the details. For example, is the firm insolvent? Has a recognized firm of bailiffs been called in?

 

*shrugs

[alan_fincher]

I agree with John. The boat was worth what someone paid for it on the day.

 

If anyone thinks it's worth more, they should put their hand in their pocket and offer the successful bidder 70k (or whatever). I imagine the buyer would be delighted with an instant 54k profit. The new owner would then have the satisfaction of having paid the 'right' price.

 

Not got 70k to hand to spend in this way? Then the whole thing is nothing whatever to do with you.

I've already said it's not worth £70K at auction, and I don't have £70K.

 

But what about (say) £26K.

 

Should give the buyer an instant £10K profit.

 

But somehow I don't think they'll sell it to me for £26K.

 

Do you ?

[Hobson]

I've already said it's not worth £70K at auction, and I don't have £70K.

 

But what about (say) £26K.

 

Should give the buyer an instant £10K profit.

 

But somehow I don't think they'll sell it to me for £26K.

 

Do you ?

 

Probably not.

 

Although, how often do you hear of house reposessions or cars/motorhomes being sold at auction for one sixth of their market value?

 

Sounds a bit squiffy for sure.

 

- Hobbs

[Gary Peacock]

It does seem a bit low but in all honesty this kind of thing is very common I used to debt collect and seize goods for a finance company and it wasn't at all common for recovered assets to go through the auction house for peanuts when they were worth thousands things were also often sold on a first offer basis when there was a rush to get a business wound up.

 

I have often seen the opposite too at public auctions where the public not knowing the full facts or value have paid much more than the actual worth.

[Dyad]

Probably not.

 

Although, how often do you hear of house reposessions or cars/motorhomes being sold at auction for one sixth of their market value?

 

Sounds a bit squiffy for sure.

 

- Hobbs

 

Looks like I'll be selling my late mother's house at auction. I'd be interested to see who actually goes to these as I've never been to one. I've always suspected that there are the fortunate few who know where to go to get a real bargain and the rest of us have to pay full whack for everything.

 

Kev

[Gary Peacock]

Looks like I'll be selling my late mother's house at auction. I'd be interested to see who actually goes to these as I've never been to one. I've always suspected that there are the fortunate few who know where to go to get a real bargain and the rest of us have to pay full whack for everything.

 

Kev

 

We used to describe the places as visiting the "Star Wars Bar".

 

You get some very strange characters at auctions and there is often a very unofficial code of conduct for ways of doing business.

[AMModels]

This is a ridiculaous state of affairs and as others have said it smells as fishy as a wooden fishing boat left with a full hold for three years and no refrigeration. Is there not an ombudsman for this kind of thing?

[NB Alnwick]

I've already said it's not worth £70K at auction, and I don't have £70K.

 

But what about (say) £26K.

 

Should give the buyer an instant £10K profit.

 

But somehow I don't think they'll sell it to me for £26K.

 

Do you ?

 

I just wish I had been bidding at the auction - no doubt, somebody will make a tidy profit!

 

I guess we will see more of this sort of thing if what the Government is telling us about recession prove to be correct.