Not Going Anywhere!

[Widwick]

Hello - is there anyone out there who can help please:

The boat is a Water Bug from Springer Engr. The engine is a 3 cyl Kubota. All was well - out at the weekends. Two weeks ago went to run up the engine and switched to heater(plugs) on, counted to 15 and switched to start- and nothing!

 

Symptoms: Fully charged battery, master switch OK with negligeable voltage drop. All wires and cables checked and tightened, cleaned. On first position of ignition switch buzzer sounds but plug relay does not pull in. Tested relay coil - with 12v operates fine. BUT only 2.5v across terminals 85 and 86! The wiring to this goes to back of alternator then up to ignition switch.

Ignition switch voltage drop across terminals is less than 0.3v.

Engine will not turn over when switch is turned to Start and No sound from Solenoid, panel lights dim. Battery voltage drops but stays above 10.75 volts on this load.

Had small amount of smoke issuing from no.2 plug area!

 

There is only one relay - for the plug heat. There are no fuses in any of the primary circuits, only in the leisure ccts (second battery not connected at this time).

Engine Stop is mechanical and fully off.

So two problems or are they connected? Grateful for any help as have now spent two weekends getting nowhere.

Tony

[Hooligan50]

Sounds to me (or should that be reads to me) That you have a dead short in one of your battery cells. The voltage will show normal across the battery terminals until you go to start the engine then as you mention it shows about 10 volts. If I was you I would change the battery.

 

H50

[Gibbo]

Don't change the battery yet. It's certainly nothing to do with a shorted cell.

 

Gibbo

[wannabefree]

Had a similar problem myself a few weeks ago. I'm an electrical newbee.

 

Turned out to be two problems:

 

• the spade connector had fallen off the starter motor
  

• the relay switch had failed ($5 from discount motorist shop)
  

 

Of course your problem may be something entirely different.

 

Good luck!

[RobinJ]

Symptoms: Fully charged battery, master switch OK with negligeable voltage drop. All wires and cables checked and tightened, cleaned. On first position of ignition switch buzzer sounds but plug relay does not pull in. Tested relay coil - with 12v operates fine. BUT only 2.5v across terminals 85 and 86! The wiring to this goes to back of alternator then up to ignition switch.

Ignition switch voltage drop across terminals is less than 0.3v.

Engine will not turn over when switch is turned to Start and No sound from Solenoid, panel lights dim. Battery voltage drops but stays above 10.75 volts on this load.

Had small amount of smoke issuing from no.2 plug area!

Doesn't sound like a battery problem?

Good idea to check your heater plugs, it possible that one has shorted?

Have you tried to jump the solenoid i.e. does the starter still turn. It sounds like a problem with the solenoid?

[RLWP]

Hello - is there anyone out there who can help please:

The boat is a Water Bug from Springer Engr. The engine is a 3 cyl Kubota. All was well - out at the weekends. Two weeks ago went to run up the engine and switched to heater(plugs) on, counted to 15 and switched to start- and nothing!

 

Symptoms: Fully charged battery, master switch OK with negligeable voltage drop. All wires and cables checked and tightened, cleaned. On first position of ignition switch buzzer sounds but plug relay does not pull in. Tested relay coil - with 12v operates fine. BUT only 2.5v across terminals 85 and 86! The wiring to this goes to back of alternator then up to ignition switch.

Ignition switch voltage drop across terminals is less than 0.3v.

Engine will not turn over when switch is turned to Start and No sound from Solenoid, panel lights dim. Battery voltage drops but stays above 10.75 volts on this load.

Had small amount of smoke issuing from no.2 plug area!

 

There is only one relay - for the plug heat. There are no fuses in any of the primary circuits, only in the leisure ccts (second battery not connected at this time).

Engine Stop is mechanical and fully off.

So two problems or are they connected? Grateful for any help as have now spent two weekends getting nowhere.

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

welcome to the forum. As you seem to have a voltmeter, do you get a voltage at the starter solenoid when you turn the switch? Do you have an earth return from the engine to the batteries (broken cable).

 

Richard

[Sir Nibble]

Hi Tony,

 

welcome to the forum. As you seem to have a voltmeter, do you get a voltage at the starter solenoid when you turn the switch? Do you have an earth return from the engine to the batteries (broken cable).

 

Richard

do you get a voltage at the starter solenoid when you turn the switch?

Important that the cable remains connected whilst carrying out this test.

Do you have an earth return from the engine to the batteries (broken cable).

Sounds like this could well be your problem.

[Widwick]

Hi Tony,

 

welcome to the forum. As you seem to have a voltmeter, do you get a voltage at the starter solenoid when you turn the switch? Do you have an earth return from the engine to the batteries (broken cable).

 

Richard

Hello and thank you for replies and welcome.

Yes, Richard, there is c.12v at solenoid and good earth (negligible resistance) from -ve battery terminal to engine block. Strange (to me) that it is the -ve line which passes through the master switch.

Does a u/s solenoid prevent the plug heater relay from working? I cannot see any reason why it should but I'm a canal boat novice.

Thank you for helping - I'm at a loss and professional on-board help seems to cost £80 an hour so its down to me to sort with very welcome guidance

Tony

[RLWP]

Hello and thank you for replies and welcome.

Yes, Richard, there is c.12v at solenoid and good earth (negligible resistance) from -ve battery terminal to engine block. Strange (to me) that it is the -ve line which passes through the master switch.

Does a u/s solenoid prevent the plug heater relay from working? I cannot see any reason why it should but I'm a canal boat novice.

Thank you for helping - I'm at a loss and professional on-board help seems to cost £80 an hour so its down to me to sort with very welcome guidance

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

if you have a good earth return and you get 12v at the starter when you turn the switch - your starter motor is broken! But - just to check - has you starter got a solenoid? Is there a small cylinder with electrical connections attached to the main starter? If so, do you get 12v at the solenoid terminal when you turn the key? If you do, the starter or solenoid is knackered.

 

Richard

[Widwick]

Hi Tony,

 

welcome to the forum. As you seem to have a voltmeter, do you get a voltage at the starter solenoid when you turn the switch? Do you have an earth return from the engine to the batteries (broken cable).

 

Richard

Hello and thank you for replies and welcome.

Yes, Richard, there is c.12v at solenoid and good earth (negligible resistance) from -ve battery terminal to engine block. Strange (to me) that it is the -ve line which passes through the master switch.

Does a u/s solenoid prevent the plug heater relay from working? I cannot see any reason why it should but I'm a canal boat novice.

Thank you for helping - I'm at a loss and professional on-board help seems to cost £80 an hour so its down to me to sort with very welcome guidance

Tony

[RLWP]

Hello and thank you for replies and welcome.

Yes, Richard, there is c.12v at solenoid and good earth (negligible resistance) from -ve battery terminal to engine block. Strange (to me) that it is the -ve line which passes through the master switch.

Does a u/s solenoid prevent the plug heater relay from working? I cannot see any reason why it should but I'm a canal boat novice.

Thank you for helping - I'm at a loss and professional on-board help seems to cost £80 an hour so its down to me to sort with very welcome guidance

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

If you have a good earth return, 12v at the solenoid and 12v on the big cable going to the starter motor, it should try to go round. If it isn't doing this then it is broken - the solenoid may have failed, the brushes may be gone, it may have seized and so on. Remove it and take it to a suitable motor factor. I would look for a Lucas service place who will probably be able to test it for you.

 

If something has gone wrong with your heater plugs the engine will turn over but not fire up. From your description so far you have an engine that doesn't do anything!

 

Hope this helps,

 

Richard

[Alastair]

Check the resistance across your isolation switches. These things are the devil for corroding inside, and can prevent sufficient current from passing.

 

I'd suggest bypassing all switches using jump leads. Turn your ignition on and short across to the relevant terminals on your starter motor. If the battery is ok, then your starter should turn. If the solenoid is sticking, you may get a click click noise.

 

I'm not familiar with the Kubota, but many diesels enable you to turn off the compression - opening a valve so that the motor cannot fire up. If you can do this, then the motor will turn easily - making it a bit easier to test the starter motor.

[RLWP]

I'd suggest bypassing all switches using jump leads. Turn your ignition on and short across to the relevant terminals on your starter motor. If the battery is ok, then your starter should turn. If the solenoid is sticking, you may get a click click noise.

 

This is a good plan and a simple test to do. Those red handled isolation switches can fail.

 

Richard

 

So, I am not the only one to carry a set of jump leads on a boat then.

[Widwick]

Most grateful for all the advice. Will go and try as suggested. One point re the master cut off switch the voltage drop across it is less than 0.25 v but I take the point that so will concentrate on it, the starter and solenoid.

I will let you know what happens.

Tony

[RLWP]

Most grateful for all the advice. Will go and try as suggested. One point re the master cut off switch the voltage drop across it is less than 0.25 v but I take the point that so will concentrate on it, the starter and solenoid.

I will let you know what happens.

Tony

 

What matters is the voltage across the switch when you are trying to start the engine. These things can fail so that instead of the large contact area that they should have to pass the current there is only a tiny one left. They can pass small currents but not large ones.

 

Good luck with your testing, take it slow and methodical - preferrably with a large mug of tea!

 

Richard

[Hooligan50]

Please try the simple things first. Connect another battery and see what happens. With a dead short in a battery cell you will not have enough power to pull in the solenoid let alone turn the engine.

 

Oh and £80 per hour...............my god, I've been repairing ships and boats for 26 years and can't get anything like that amount per hour!!!!!!

 

H50

[magnetman]

Hello - is there anyone out there who can help please:

The boat is a Water Bug from Springer Engr. The engine is a 3 cyl Kubota. All was well - out at the weekends. Two weeks ago went to run up the engine and switched to heater(plugs) on, counted to 15 and switched to start- and nothing!

 

Symptoms: Fully charged battery, master switch OK with negligeable voltage drop. All wires and cables checked and tightened, cleaned. On first position of ignition switch buzzer sounds but plug relay does not pull in. Tested relay coil - with 12v operates fine. BUT only 2.5v across terminals 85 and 86! The wiring to this goes to back of alternator then up to ignition switch.

Ignition switch voltage drop across terminals is less than 0.3v.

Engine will not turn over when switch is turned to Start and No sound from Solenoid, panel lights dim. Battery voltage drops but stays above 10.75 volts on this load.

Had small amount of smoke issuing from no.2 plug area!

 

There is only one relay - for the plug heat. There are no fuses in any of the primary circuits, only in the leisure ccts (second battery not connected at this time).

Engine Stop is mechanical and fully off.

So two problems or are they connected? Grateful for any help as have now spent two weekends getting nowhere.

Tony

 

Just wondering if maybe the starter motor pinion is already meshed with the flywheel ring gear rather than being disengaged by the solenoid as it usually would be. As I understand it the solenoid on a starter motor is used so that the starter can get going a bit before being engaged with the ring gear. If it were already meshed it would struggle to get going, I would think. If the panel lights dim there must be something drawing a lot of current, and a jammed starter motor would do that.

[larkshall]

The starter motor is probably of th pre-engaged type. I would manually turn the engine over a few degrees, then try starter again. If the enine turns over, then you have a blind spot on the starter motor, not uncommon but a nuisance.

 

Another quick and easy test, requires one jump lead... Locate starter solenoid terminals, The thick ones. One goes to starter motor, one goes to battery. Attach one end of jump lead to the lead going to the motor. BRIEFLY attach other end to the battery terminal (the same terminal as the solenoid connects to). If motor spins then you know that solenoid or starter switch is screwed.

 

if first test says starter motor blind spot, you will be best off changinging the unit, but for gods sake go to a motor factor, or better a local starter motor re-finisher. Do not go near a ships swindlers.

 

If solenoid is US, try and get the replacement from a motor factor.

 

Oh Starter switch test.. Locate power into switch, and locate power out to solenoid. Using a multimeter test probe wire, briefly short from power in to power out with switch in off position, if solenoid cliks, and/or SM turns, then its the switch

 

Oh using your meter whats the voltage of starter battery? at present?.

[Widwick]

UPDATE

First, many thanks for all the advice - I dont feel I am searching in the wilderness without a buddy anymore!

 

Put jump lead around the master switch - switched to start - no go, panel lights dimmed.

Jump lead from battery +ve to solenoid +ve in - switched to start - no go, lights dimmed.

Bridged solenoid big terminals with (old) screwdriver - starter motor operated and turned over engine.

Removed thin wire feed at solenoid and fed solenoid with 12v from battery +ve terminal - solinoid pulled in and operated starter motor.

So: Solenoid and starter motor appear to work.

Voltage at end of thin wire to solenoid 6.5v when ignition switch at Start position.

Small amount of smoke again observed at #2 plug again - see first Post.

Battery still measures some 11v when switch is held in Start position.

Heater relay still inoperative - measuring some 2.5v across coil terminals.

I'm at a loss to understand where I'm losing all those volts! If a plug had failed short cct would that pull down the voltage?

Voltage drop across ignition switch at posn 1 and 2 is 0.3v.

I suppose some of the above is good news but am no nearer a running boat.

Grateful for any suggestions on where next - cant find the scuttle cocks!

Tony

[RLWP]

UPDATE

First, many thanks for all the advice - I dont feel I am searching in the wilderness without a buddy anymore!

 

Put jump lead around the master switch - switched to start - no go, panel lights dimmed.

Jump lead from battery +ve to solenoid +ve in - switched to start - no go, lights dimmed.

Bridged solenoid big terminals with (old) screwdriver - starter motor operated and turned over engine.

Removed thin wire feed at solenoid and fed solenoid with 12v from battery +ve terminal - solinoid pulled in and operated starter motor.

So: Solenoid and starter motor appear to work.

Voltage at end of thin wire to solenoid 6.5v when ignition switch at Start position.

Small amount of smoke again observed at #2 plug again - see first Post.

Battery still measures some 11v when switch is held in Start position.

Heater relay still inoperative - measuring some 2.5v across coil terminals.

I'm at a loss to understand where I'm losing all those volts! If a plug had failed short cct would that pull down the voltage?

Voltage drop across ignition switch at posn 1 and 2 is 0.3v.

I suppose some of the above is good news but am no nearer a running boat.

Grateful for any suggestions on where next - cant find the scuttle cocks!

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

Sounds like the mug of tea helped then.

 

Good news: Your starter motor is OK

 

I would work on this bit :

 

"Voltage at end of thin wire to solenoid 6.5v when ignition switch at Start position"

 

Have you done any wiring work around the ignition switch or the relay? I'm wondering if you have knocked something loose somewhere.

 

With you next mug of tea try to follow the thin wire from the solenoid back to where it gets its volts from the battery. There will be a lot of climbing around and puzzling in this. Check the wire isn't damaged and that all the connections are clean as you go. You could also check to see what voltage you get at each of the joints when you turn the start switch (n.b. you many need to have the arms of Mr Tickle to perform this).

 

You are getting somewhere now, stick at it.

 

Richard

[Widwick]

Hello Richard

Thank you for the reply. I will give it some thought and tackle (attack) it again at the weekend

Tony

[RobinJ]

Put jump lead around the master switch - switched to start - no go, panel lights dimmed.

Jump lead from battery +ve to solenoid +ve in - switched to start - no go, lights dimmed.

Bridged solenoid big terminals with (old) screwdriver - starter motor operated and turned over engine.

Removed thin wire feed at solenoid and fed solenoid with 12v from battery +ve terminal - solinoid pulled in and operated starter motor.

So: Solenoid and starter motor appear to work.

Voltage at end of thin wire to solenoid 6.5v when ignition switch at Start position.

Small amount of smoke again observed at #2 plug again - see first Post.

Battery still measures some 11v when switch is held in Start position.

Heater relay still inoperative - measuring some 2.5v across coil terminals.

It occurs to me that the problem seems to be at the panel end? Is it worth checking the heater relay operation (connect it to 12V and see if it clicks), it may be stuck or burnt out. Some (Thornycroft I think) had a delay fitted, but the heaters should energise straight away and then a delay before the starter comes in!

I'm at a loss to understand where I'm losing all those volts! If a plug had failed short cct would that pull down the voltage?

Voltage drop across ignition switch at posn 1 and 2 is 0.3v.

Any fault on the heaters themselves should only affect the voltage not the operation of the relay. Might be worth disconnecting the heaters and see if the relay operates then?

Seems there is not a problem with the ignition switch?

Failing that you will have to trace and check the wires to and from the switch and relay, it is possible that one has got pulled or rubbed against something, or even rotted etc.

[Wiltshire Moonraker]

Hi Tony

 

Have just read though this thread and think the clue to your heater plug & start solenoids not pulling in may be in what you say here:

Tested relay coil - with 12v operates fine. BUT only 2.5v across terminals 85 and 86! The wiring to this goes to back of alternator then up to ignition switch.

It would appear that the relay 'earths' through the connection to the back of the alternator, can you see a marking on the terminal it is connected to? The idea is that you can't try to start the engine while it's already running

 

Take a look at Snibble's comments in this thread

It may just be that you have an alternator fault! Does your ignition/battery warning light illuminate correctly?

 

If you can identify the alternator I may be able to help you more.

 

Not sure about the bit of smoke from one glow plug Is it from the terminal end? Might be a loose connection, but why would they energise if the glow plug relay isn't working?

 

Hope this helps

 

Chris

[Widwick]

UPDATE No 2

Many thanks for all the suggestions especially Richard and Chris.

Was able to get to the boat this evening to try some more.

Checked wire to back of alternator - only one spade terminal found - the alt is in such a tight spot couldnt see any identification even with a mirror on a rod

Rechecked wiring and at this stage fed the solenoid signal terminal on the ignition switch with 12v jumper straight from battery +ve. Solenoid clicked in and starter motor turned engine over.

Disconnected jumper and then removed thick cable going to plugs from ignition switch. Tried ignition switch again and this time the solenoid operated when switch was turned to Start position with engine being turned over.

It therefore seems that the plugs or their feeder wire was pulling the 12v down. (I had noticed that cable warmed up appreciably after continued operation of the ignition switch but earlier put this down to normal heavy current draw. Disconnected this cable and substituted a jump lead - no difference.

Measured resistance from top of plugs (all connected together) to earth and engine block (the same).

Measures 9 Ohms.

Am I getting somewhere? Could the no 2 plug which was seen issuing small wispy smoke previously have failed short cct. The only niggle is Chris's point about how it could do anything without the relay operating but there may be a pathe when switch is in itts full stant position. Is there an in situ test I can do without a DC clamp meter. Looking at their positions re the manifold I dont relish taking them out!

Tony

[Wiltshire Moonraker]

UPDATE No 2

Many thanks for all the suggestions especially Richard and Chris.

Was able to get to the boat this evening to try some more.

Checked wire to back of alternator - only one spade terminal found - the alt is in such a tight spot couldnt see any identification even with a mirror on a rod

Rechecked wiring and at this stage fed the solenoid signal terminal on the ignition switch with 12v jumper straight from battery +ve. Solenoid clicked in and starter motor turned engine over.

Disconnected jumper and then removed thick cable going to plugs from ignition switch. Tried ignition switch again and this time the solenoid operated when switch was turned to Start position with engine being turned over.

It therefore seems that the plugs or their feeder wire was pulling the 12v down. (I had noticed that cable warmed up appreciably after continued operation of the ignition switch but earlier put this down to normal heavy current draw. Disconnected this cable and substituted a jump lead - no difference.

Measured resistance from top of plugs (all connected together) to earth and engine block (the same).

Measures 9 Ohms.

Am I getting somewhere? Could the no 2 plug which was seen issuing small wispy smoke previously have failed short cct. The only niggle is Chris's point about how it could do anything without the relay operating but there may be a pathe when switch is in itts full stant position. Is there an in situ test I can do without a DC clamp meter. Looking at their positions re the manifold I dont relish taking them out!

Tony

Hi Tony

 

Seems the alternator is OK that's good news! - So can you disconnect the cable from at least 2 of the plugs reasonably easily? If so you can take a cable straight from Battery + to each plug in turn (they will probably draw about 20A each initially if you have the means to measure the current) but when you connect each one there will be a spark, if #2 is short circuit you will certainly see the difference in the size of the spark!!! You could just disconnect that plug temporarily and try starting.

 

Look forward to the next exciting instalment.

 

Chris

 

BTW I'm going to look at boats for sale at the weekend in the Northants area