Injector Pipe BMC 1.5

[Bones]

can be done. especially with old lower pressure pumps ala bmc, wouldn't even attempt this with modern ISuzu/Bosch systems.

 

Mind I do prefer to use brake pipe flairing kit

 

Bones, I can't remember the olive size, and manual is on land, apologies.

 

If at work, go to nearest auto garage and get em to put new olive on with brake tools, retain original nut though !!!,

 

When bending pipe to re-fit, heat and bend SLOWLY with as big a radius as possible on and bend..

 

If I was near would do it for you.

 

PS double check olive size whilst there, metric look very like imperial,

 

I have just looked up where you are from, and realise it is no -where near oxford, what a shame!!! I persume I can heat the pipe up on the cooker?

 

 

PS. I have just had a look at my records, and it shows that this pipe (number 2) was the one that I managed to break last October. I did order a new injector pipe from Calcutt, but it was completely the wrong shape, so the workshop fixed the old one for me.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Bones

[smileypete]

John, I am not blind, I do know what an olive is, and I do know how to tell whether it is integral or not. It isn't. The olive is not steel and it is an olive. Alan has given me a suitable explanation, and it is possible that he is absolutely right, and the pressure is pushing the pipe. Looks like I caught it just intime. I will order a new pipe.

Thank you.

 

Bones,

 

Is the pipe copper or steel (holds a magnet)?

 

If the latter the olive probably won't 'bite' into it.

 

If the former the olive nut probably wasn't done up enough.

 

Normally the only way to get an olive off a pipe is cut into it and split it.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Bones]

Bones,

 

Is the pipe copper or steel (holds a magnet)?

 

If the latter the olive probably won't 'bite' into it.

 

If the former the olive nut probably wasn't done up enough.

 

Normally the only way to get an olive off a pipe is cut into it and split it.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

the pipe is steel. The olive is copper....

[smileypete]

the pipe is steel. The olive is copper....

 

I think that explains why the pipe slipped out.

 

Are the other pipes steel too?

 

It might be worth looking at how they're attached as well, whether olives are used or something else.

 

If olives are used it would be worth having a careful look to see if they're brass and/or soldered onto the pipe.

 

If olives aren't used, see if the end of the pipe is 'flared' into a funnel shape.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited July 15, 2008 by smileypete

[John Orentas]

UNLESS there is still enough fuel getting into the cylinder so they are all firing, but not enough fuel to keep them going? especially as there would then be air in the system?

 

 

Bones, I will try one more time then you can slap me down again.. It is not a matter of quantity of fuel getting into the combustion chamber, the fuel must be injected at that very high pressure partly that it must be highly atomised as it enters the cylinder and partly that it must overcome by a large margin, the pressure of the air which is already in there (in the region of 5/600 psi).

 

It takes very little to prevent the ignition of the fuel, everything must be spot-on, the slightest leak in the high pressure fuel system or the slightest loss of some of that 500 psi will do it, and by the way ignition takes place at the very instant that the fuel enters the cylinder.. Are you sure the engine has not been running on only 3 cylinders if only intermittently.

 

Slap away !

[smileypete]

BTW

 

ASAP supplies have a BMC 1.5 #2 injector pipe for £14 + VAT, P&P.

 

Their part #131112, they have a picture of it for reference.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[alan_fincher]

BTW

 

ASAP supplies have a BMC 1.5 #2 injector pipe for £14 + VAT, P&P.

 

Their part #131112, they have a picture of it for reference.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Yep see post 3, (OK, I added VAT and rounded!)

 

But tantalisingly their image seems to have little red protective covers over the end of the pipe, hiding what's actually there.

 

If you buy from them, I'm guessing it will not be an olive, but I'm used to eating my words, so will happily be proved wrong!

[Bones]

Bones, I will try one more time then you can slap me down again.. It is not a matter of quantity of fuel getting into the combustion chamber, the fuel must be injected at that very high pressure partly that it must be highly atomised as it enters the cylinder and partly that it must overcome by a large margin, the pressure of the air which is already in there (in the region of 5/600 psi).

 

It takes very little to prevent the ignition of the fuel, everything must be spot-on, the slightest leak in the high pressure fuel system or the slightest loss of some of that 500 psi will do it, and by the way ignition takes place at the very instant that the fuel enters the cylinder.. Are you sure the engine has not been running on only 3 cylinders if only intermittently.

 

Slap away !

 

I am certainly not saying it hasn't been running on three cylinders for a while at least - a couple of weeks maybe, what I am saying is that there is fuel spirting out of that connection, rather like it does when you crack it in order to bleed the system. Perhaps there is too much of it spirting out and thus air getting into the system. Whats your point though?

[smileypete]

But tantalisingly their image seems to have little red protective covers over the end of the pipe, hiding what's actually there.

 

I'd expect the ends are flared, so the nuts are captive on the pipe.

 

I'd be 99% sure Bones' engine has the same.

 

from...:

 

PS. I have just had a look at my records, and it shows that this pipe (number 2) was the one that I managed to break last October. I did order a new injector pipe from Calcutt, but it was completely the wrong shape, so the workshop fixed the old one for me.

 

...it sounds like the existing pipe is a running repair rather than the original connection.

 

If in a hurry a motor factors should be able to make a pipe up but if they don't have a brake pipe bender it won't look all that great.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Bones]

BTW

 

ASAP supplies have a BMC 1.5 #2 injector pipe for £14 + VAT, P&P.

 

Their part #131112, they have a picture of it for reference.

 

cheers,

Pete.

thats where i got it from it was 13something but I also paid the extra arm and leg to get it by tomorrow.

 

 

Yep see post 3, (OK, I added VAT and rounded!)

 

But tantalisingly their image seems to have little red protective covers over the end of the pipe, hiding what's actually there.

 

If you buy from them, I'm guessing it will not be an olive, but I'm used to eating my words, so will happily be proved wrong!

 

as do the calcutt ones. It will be interesting to see how the one I have varies from the one I am provided with. AND whether it is the right shape!

 

 

I'd expect the ends are flared, so the nuts are captive on the pipe.

 

I'd be 99% sure Bones' engine has the same.

 

from...:

 

 

 

...it sounds like the existing pipe is a running repair rather than the original connection.

 

If in a hurry a motor factors should be able to make a pipe up but if they don't have a brake pipe bender it won't look all that great.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

What I have now is an olive, and it sounds as though that hasn't gripped, perhaps it is the wrong sort of olive. It sounds as though that might not have been the right thing to have done so I will compare what I have, to the one tomorrow.

 

How do I mould the shape of the pipe if it is the wrong shape?

[alan_fincher]

I've not dealt with ASAP yet, so I don't know how good they are, (but lots of people swear by them).

 

Calcutt are usually helpful, but not infallible - they were adamant that the thermostat they sent me is correct for my engine, but it most definitely is not....

 

But Calcutt will at least swap photos or drawings to get you the right bit.... So if you photograph or sketch your current pipe and email it to them, they will normally try hard to get it right.

 

I can't see why ASAP shouldn't be the same, but I've not tried it.

 

It's hard to see how anyone could get you the wrong bit unless - it wasn't for the 1500 engine, or, it wasn't the "number 2" pipe.

 

I think it's a better bet than having one made, if you can stand the delays and/or hassle.

 

Good luck with it.

 

Alan

 

EDIT,

 

Further thought, (please be very gentle with me!)...

 

You said No 2 Injector, I think.

 

Just checking, but which end of the engine are you counting from ?

 

(I did say be gentle with me!).

[John Orentas]

I am certainly not saying it hasn't been running on three cylinders for a while at least - a couple of weeks maybe, what I am saying is that there is fuel spirting out of that connection, rather like it does when you crack it in order to bleed the system. Perhaps there is too much of it spirting out and thus air getting into the system. Whats your point though?

 

 

The point is it really needs to 'spirting' into the engine rather than into the bilge.. Bear in mind each firing stroke uses very little diesel a 5% leak will loose a very significant pressure and that is what will prevent the engine from running, it may even suck a bit of air in and that is worse.

 

Diesel engines are totally intolerant of leaks.

Edited July 15, 2008 by John Orentas

[MoominPapa]

I don't mind being told something, but I would like to know the proper reasons for it. Just because the RNLI say no, and just because you think it is a gamble to assume that all my injectors are suitable is not a proper reason. All my injectors have an olive on.

OK, how's this as a reason for not botching the job: it you have a big leak, the diesel will just squirt out. If you have small hole, the diesel will spray out at VERY high pressure. Easily high enough to inject diesel straight through the skin of any bodily part you accidentally get too close. Injecting diesel into flesh kills it, potentially leading to amputation. I'd for hate Bones to end up with fewer.

 

 

edit for poor arrangement of letters

Bah - you get that problem too?

 

MP.

[smileypete]

How do I mould the shape of the pipe if it is the wrong shape?

 

If you're lucky the motor factors will have a brake pipe bender, something like this:

 

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/...ive-pipe-bender

 

 

and will be able to get roughly the right shape.

 

Failing that you could just bend it by hand, but it may kink if tight bends are tried so the end result will look a little messy.

 

The injector pipes on my BMC engine are 5.65mm so I'd expect 6mm is OK if the connections are flared.

 

If getting one made up, make sure the flare nuts have the same thread as on the engine!

 

 

Maybe try comparing the pics of #1, #2, #3, #4 pipes on the ASAP site, and see which match what you have?

 

I'm sure if you measure the end to end distance, ASAP could double check it for you.

 

 

I reckon getting one custom made is a distant second to getting the right one ready made.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited July 15, 2008 by smileypete

[Bones]

EDIT,

 

Further thought, (please be very gentle with me!)...

 

You said No 2 Injector, I think.

 

Just checking, but which end of the engine are you counting from ?

 

(I did say be gentle with me!).

 

consider yourself nailed up to the tree. I know the numbers of injectors ya know!

 

The point is it really needs to 'spirting' into the engine rather than into the bilge.. Bear in mind each firing stroke uses very little diesel a 5% leak will loose a very significant pressure and that is what will prevent the engine from running, it may even suck a bit of air in and that is worse.

 

Diesel engines are totally intolerant of leaks.

 

 

enchanting. Now, back to my injector pipe....

 

OK, how's this as a reason for not botching the job: it you have a big leak, the diesel will just squirt out. If you have small hole, the diesel will spray out at VERY high pressure. Easily high enough to inject diesel straight through the skin of any bodily part you accidentally get too close. Injecting diesel into flesh kills it, potentially leading to amputation. I'd for hate Bones to end up with fewer.

 

 

 

Bah - you get that problem too?

 

MP.

 

My hand is still intact. That will, I assume, mean it is a big leak rather than a hole. A leak from the poorly fitting so called 'non-existent' (as defined elsewhere ) olive? This means the new injector pipe should fix it?

 

If you're lucky the motor factors will have a brake pipe bender, something like this:

 

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/...ive-pipe-bender

 

 

and will be able to get roughly the right shape.

 

Failing that you could just bend it by hand, but it may kink if tight bends are tried so the end result will look a little messy.

 

The injector pipes on my BMC engine are 5.65mm so I'd expect 6mm is OK if the connections are flared.

 

If getting one made up, make sure the flare nuts have the same thread as on the engine!

 

 

Maybe try comparing the pics of #1, #2, #3, #4 pipes on the ASAP site, and see which match what you have?

 

I'm sure if you measure the end to end distance, ASAP could double check it for you.

 

 

I reckon getting one custom made is a distant second to getting the right one ready made.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

 

Now you tell me to compare the piccies! I have ordered it now!!!! I was told, very recently, that the injector pipes for the BMC 1.5 vary quite a lot, so the seriel number off the old one would be needed - all very well IF there was a seriel number on the old one! here's hoping that, for once, the new one is perfect. HAHAHAHAHA

 

I will see whether I can find a nice friendly motor person tomorrow. If not.. I hear Oxford is nice at this time of year............................. trips out can be great fun..........

[smileypete]

I will see whether I can find a nice friendly motor person tomorrow. If not.. I hear Oxford is nice at this time of year............................. trips out can be great fun..........

 

If the old pipe is long enough, it might be worth asking a motor person to put a new flare on the end, after double checking the nut at that end is a proper flare nut.

 

That gives you two options.

 

A new pipe would be better as using one that's a bit shorter than it should be may be less reliable.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Bones]

My new best friend Olive and I are waiting with excitement for the injector pipe to arrive..... I will report back.....

[Keeping Up]

If it doesn't work, tell Olive to get stuffed!

[John Orentas]

My new best friend Olive and I are waiting with excitement for the injector pipe to arrive..... I will report back.....

 

 

I met up with my mate last night, he who knows a lot about BMC 1500's.. He tells me that the injector pipes did indeed use 'loose' olives until about the mid 1960's when they followed the more usual practise and either had olives brazed to the pipes or had machine formed ends.. So Bones was totally correct in her asertions, he did reccomend keeping a close eye on even the non-leaking ones.

 

The pipes themselves however were always 'steel'.

Edited July 16, 2008 by John Orentas

[Bones]

I met up with my mate last night, he who knows a lot about BMC 1500's.. He tells me that the injector pipes did indeed use 'loose' olives until about the mid 1960's when they followed the more usual practise and either had olives brazed to the pipes or had machine formed ends.. So Bones was totally correct in her asertions, he did reccomend keeping a close eye on even the non-leaking ones.

 

The pipes themselves however were always 'steel'.

 

 

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Olive IS pleased.

 

(oopsie... was that a bit too excited?!?!?!)

Edited July 16, 2008 by Bones

[RLWP]

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Olive IS pleased.

 

(oopsie... was that a bit too excited?!?!?!)

 

I'm not sure about this Olive. Seems a bit loose to me!

 

 

Richard

[Bones]

I met up with my mate last night, he who knows a lot about BMC 1500's.. He tells me that the injector pipes did indeed use 'loose' olives until about the mid 1960's when they followed the more usual practise and either had olives brazed to the pipes or had machine formed ends.. So Bones was totally correct in her asertions, he did reccomend keeping a close eye on even the non-leaking ones.

 

The pipes themselves however were always 'steel'.

 

SOOO are we saying that Olive shouldn't be copper, and if I were to get another olive the right size and from a different material it might work?

[John Orentas]

SOOO are we saying that Olive shouldn't be copper, and if I were to get another olive the right size and from a different material it might work?

 

 

I think the fact non of the manufacturers currently use loose olives must tell us something, olives regardless of purpose are invariably made of copper or copper alloy.. I still say the 'don't fiddle' rule should be followed.

[RLWP]

SOOO are we saying that Olive shouldn't be copper, and if I were to get another olive the right size and from a different material it might work?

 

 

I think we are also saying that BMC packed up messing about with olives in the 1960's, probably because they come loose on the pipes.

 

Richard

Edited July 16, 2008 by RLWP

[larkshall]

Bones, you asked about testing the engine on 3 pots with your dodgey no2 injector pipe off. But were worrried about high pressure disel spray making a mess or worse. There is one way of doing this.

 

Tie an inflatable balloon over the end of the injector pipe (party balloon). Then run test. but not for long. The balloon will expand to collect diesel, and has enough give not to be immediately penetrated by the spray.. I emphasise again, not for long.