Top Loading Washing Machines

[BlueStringPudding]

These type machines are far more suitable than Auto machines IMO For light washes as you're not committed to a full cycle. I would imagine this unit heats the water. What I have noticed though with this model is the wash time 122 minutes which is a long time IMO and using around 3,5 KW

 

29 minute quickwash sounds pretty good to me. And with variable temperature wash cycles surely I could run a cold wash but fill it from my hot tap, to save using the heating element.

 

So 1.14kWh at 29 minutes would equate to about 570W then?

 

And this is where I b*gger up the sums:

 

If Power=VI

Then 570=230I

So I=2.5A

 

Plus the current used by the inverter.

 

That sounds a bit small for a wash cycle. Where have I gone wrong?

Edited July 4, 2008 by BlueStringPudding

[Dominic M]

29 minute quickwash sounds pretty good to me. And with variable temperature wash cycles surely I could run a cold wash but fill it from my hot tap, to save using the heating element.

 

So 1.14kWh at 29 minutes would equate to about 570W then?

 

And this is where I b*gger up the sums:

 

If Power=VI

Then 570=230I

So I=2.5A

 

Plus the current used by the inverter.

 

That sounds a bit small for a wash cycle. Where have I gone wrong?

I think the question to put to the electrical forum on this topic is, "which washing powder makes your whites whitest leaving everything scented with the freshness of a bright spring morning?"

[paulcatchpole]

29 minute quickwash sounds pretty good to me. And with variable temperature wash cycles surely I could run a cold wash but fill it from my hot tap, to save using the heating element.

 

So 1.14kWh at 29 minutes would equate to about 570W then?

 

And this is where I b*gger up the sums:

 

If Power=VI

Then 570=230I

So I=2.5A

 

Plus the current used by the inverter.

 

That sounds a bit small for a wash cycle. Where have I gone wrong?

 

Hi BSP, are you trying to work out the current the inverter will pull from the batteries whilst supplying the above example?

 

The 2.5A is correct, at 230v, if the wattage you've given is right...

 

So at 12v, that's 570/12 = 47.5A @12v.

 

And then your inverter is possibly 80 or 90% efficient, so we probably should have incorporated an extra margin in there as well, along with the idle current of the inverter.

 

So perhaps a running current just over 50A to the inverter, would be somewhere reasonable.

 

Any use?

 

PC

[BlueStringPudding]

Hi BSP, are you trying to work out the current the inverter will pull from the batteries whilst supplying the above example?

 

The 2.5A is correct, at 230v, if the wattage you've given is right...

 

So at 12v, that's 570/12 = 47.5A @12v.

 

And then your inverter is possibly 80 or 90% efficient, so we probably should have incorporated an extra margin in there as well, along with the idle current of the inverter.

 

So perhaps a running current just over 50A to the inverter, would be somewhere reasonable.

 

Any use?

 

PC

 

That makes sense - that's exactly what I was trying to work out - thank you.

[paulcatchpole]

That makes sense - that's exactly what I was trying to work out - thank you.

 

No problem, but there might be a problem with the wattage you've come up with, but in a good way, I'd suspect.

 

The washer HNT5146, in question, says its consumption is 1.14kW - it doesn't specify if that's a peak or average and it doesn't say that's 1.14kWh. If that's an average, irrespective of wash cycle, then your calculation is right.

 

I'd be tempted to think that that 1.14kW is a peak figure, which sounds okay for a small washer - and hence the actual consumption over an hour could well be quite a bit less. Maybe 200w for a small motor and the other 940w for the heating elements? In which case, it'd only pull 1140W whilst heating at the start, then maybe only 200w for the rest of the time.

 

This seems backed by the Ecocentre website:

 

"Wav -Average demand can be tricky to determine; while a washing machine may use 1000W in some stages of its cycle, on average it will consume far less."

 

I've no real idea as to whether this is correct, but I will have a go later at measuring our big home washer whilst running and see what happens - as we use the quick wash quite a lot, so that might well be useful data.

 

In summary, I think your 50odd A @ 12v might be quite a bit less except when the machine is heating the water, when it might be 120A @12v.

 

There's also my earlier comment referring to what other people have done, which is to feed the machine with hot water from the calorifier - saving on the electrical demands a bit.

 

HTH, PC

 

As an aside, a couple of inverter manuals I've seen recently have suggested a rough calculation of 1A @12v for every 10W output - so that works out okay with 570w being 57A...

 

PC

Edited July 4, 2008 by paulcatchpole

[paulcatchpole]

Adding quick thought... Thinking particularly of the stall current of the motor when it first starts - for anyone reading this thread, I wouldn't necessarily try running one of these off a 1150W inverter... Stall currents can be up to 3x the motor rating, so potentially adding a brief load here of an extra 400-500W, as a guess.

 

PC

[Justme]

Your all mad

 

kwh is not a fixed power over time spec, both are variables.

 

Washers are specified per CYCLE not per hour

 

So you cant use a quick wash & expect to reduce cycle power consumed. It could even be a higher consumption (less soak time so more agitation)

 

Justme

[BlueStringPudding]

Your all mad

 

kwh is not a fixed power over time spec, both are variables.

 

Washers are specified per CYCLE not per hour

 

So you cant use a quick wash & expect to reduce cycle power consumed. It could even be a higher consumption (less soak time so more agitation)

 

Justme

 

Isn't this statement "Washers are specified per CYCLE not per hour" and this one "So you cant use a quick wash & expect to reduce cycle power consumed" a contradiction in terms?

 

Surely a 29 minute cold cyle will use less power in total than a one hour 40 degree cycle?

[paulcatchpole]

Your all mad

 

kwh is not a fixed power over time spec, both are variables.

 

Washers are specified per CYCLE not per hour

 

So you cant use a quick wash & expect to reduce cycle power consumed. It could even be a higher consumption (less soak time so more agitation)

 

Eh? I'm lost here...

 

Where do you get the washers-specified-per-cycle thing from? I can't find easy reference to it on the web anywhere? They seem specified in either peak or average running consumption, specified in either W, kW or A@230v.

 

If specified, as per the one above, as kW [no hours], I'd consider that to be a peak maximum power-draw at a point in time. How that averages out over a run-time or cycle, or hour, any length of time, depends on the washer. It would be more help if they specified it as <x> kWh, whilst running with <z> load in it, then we'd have a clearer idea of the average consumption over an hour of run time.

 

kWh, is just as it says, as you've said before - 1000s of W [instantaneous VA (ignoring power factor)] multiplied by time...

 

Why does the quick wash not reduce power consumption? I agree that the water will need heating [again, if we're actually using the electric heating system] to the same temperature, so no saving there. But the motor will be running for less time, and if that's a 200w load [and more when spinning], then a shorter wash time must therefore reduce the total consumption?

 

Where am I going wrong here?

 

Gibbo & Alan, can you sanity check my working on this one?

 

Ta,

 

PC

 

Isn't this statement "Washers are specified per CYCLE not per hour" and this one "So you cant use a quick wash & expect to reduce cycle power consumed" a contradiction in terms?

 

Surely a 29 minute cold cyle will use less power in total than a one hour 40 degree cycle?

 

Hmm, indeed. There's the water-heating question, as it still needs to get as hot, but the total run time of the motor should be less, hence a net saving in power.

 

I think....

 

PC

[Alastair]

I have the Hoover Nextra top loader. Rated AAA and holds 6kg dry weight. Model HNT5146 up to 1400 spin speed. It also has fuzzy logic, so senses size of load and only uses miniman water needed. I use shore power and find the 30degree 30 minute wash cycle sufficent for me needs.

 

 

Can you do full-cycle cold washes with it?

 

Is it possible to fill with hot water?

[Justme]

If you read the entire thread you will see where I have pointed to at least 3 reputable sources that tell you that washers are rated per cycle. It worked on a standardised cycle so all machines are tested on the same (or closest) cycle.

 

Its the only fair way for them to be comapared or a maker could use a very long cycle time to get a low comsumption per hour rate.

 

A quick cycle "could" use more power as its got to do the same work in less time. Most modern washers use soaking as a part of the cleaning cycle. Quick washe cycles do not so have to agitate the wash more (thats why eco cycles take much longer). Obviously cold washes will use less power due to no water heating assuming its heated (or not) by the washer.

 

You will also see on the back of the washer the MAX power rating in watts or KW but not kwh as its will not use that much all the time.

 

 

Justme

Edited July 4, 2008 by Justme

[Captain Miss Pugwash]

Can you do full-cycle cold washes with it?

 

Is it possible to fill with hot water?

 

 

Yes you can do a zero degree wash and for the higher temp washes there is a time saver button. The machine is cold fill and I ususally use the afore mentioned quick wash, but if I do have something soiled to wash, I sometimes cheat and pour half a bucket of hot water into the drum. There is also a 40degree fast wash, takes 44mins.

[carlt]

Yes you can do a zero degree wash

Please note that encasing your clothes in ice will not get the whites wite.

[onthecut]

Anyone use one of these skinny little top loading washing machines? They look like they'd be quite a good use of space on a boat - what d'yall reckon?

 

clickywickywoo

 

This one, for example:

 

 

Has a AAA energy rating and is only 40cm wide.

 

I'd be interested to know what you guys think, whether any of these might be an improvement on the Candy Aquamatic or the comapct Zanussi front loaders that many boaters have?

 

P.S. I originally posted this in the Twin Tubs thread, but as it's not about twin tubs I've given it it's freedom!

 

 

Spot on idea, I think. We have a 'U' shaped kitchen (galley for the pedants) area and the top loader sits in what would otherwise be the awkward corner, covered by a removable section of worktop.

 

Mike.

[magnetman]

if a washing machine uses 1.14kwh 'per cycle' surely that means that if the cycle is 30 minutes the average power consumption will in fact be 2.28kw. not half of the power used in an hour long cycle but double the power because the work is being done twice as quickly as if it had taken an hour.

[Justme]

Sort of.

 

I think the rated cycle is a longer cycle so that they can claim a lower total consumption (remember long soaks use no power but do improve cleaning, which is why eco washes take the longest). I think on our washer the rated cycle lasts about 90 mins but the cycle we use the most takes about takes about 34-45 mins. I have a plug in power meter so will test it next time it goes on & see how it compares to the rated cycle.

[Alastair]

Yes you can do a zero degree wash and for the higher temp washes there is a time saver button. The machine is cold fill and I ususally use the afore mentioned quick wash, but if I do have something soiled to wash, I sometimes cheat and pour half a bucket of hot water into the drum. There is also a 40degree fast wash, takes 44mins.

Brill, thanks for the info.

[Justme]

Well just ran a wash with the test meter fitted.

Its a standard Zanussi household washer (A rated for wash energy & spin) 1600spin 6kg wash.

 

Rated cycle (EEC Directive 92/75 standard wash for rating 60E whites / cottons 155 mins) 1.14kw/h

 

On this cycle 30 deg cotton/colour care wash 1 hour 52mins it consumes 0.45kw/h

(will add other cycles as we do them)

 

So depending on cycle selected you could be using lots less power than you think as ALL washers are tested (as per EEC directive 92/75) on the 60E cycle which include water heating.

 

 

Justme

Edited July 9, 2008 by Justme

[BlueStringPudding]

Excellent - thanks, Justme.

 

Any idea what it draws when it needs surges of power (eg. at start of spin, or when the sycle begins?)

 

Thanks

[Chertsey]

I'm going to use a bucket. But I've got a great dryer (as long as nothing falls off into the flywheel).

[Machpoint005]

AFAICR all washing machines these days are cold fill - it's more energy efficient for it to heat its own water than to draw it from a hot tank. Power consumptions therefore allow for whatever heating is necessary (from 'standard' cold water).

 

On a boat the sums are different, because you haven't an (effectively) infinite source of electricity, and the water in the calorifier is probably hotter than the water in a domestic HW cylinder (and is heated for free, if you are cruising). I'd suggest there is no point in trying to heat the water in the washing machine using the inverter and battery bank: just use the hot you have already. That would be my logic, anyway.

[Justme]

Excellent - thanks, Justme.

 

Any idea what it draws when it needs surges of power (eg. at start of spin, or when the sycle begins?)

 

Thanks

 

 

I watched as much of the cycle as I could The highest numbers I saw were just over 1000watts or 1200 VA (watching the va / watts relationship, the higher the watts the closer to the VA number it got). I guess that the actual peak would be higher but for a very small amount of time my meter would not display it.

 

 

Justme

 

AFAICR all washing machines these days are cold fill - it's more energy efficient for it to heat its own water than to draw it from a hot tank. Power consumptions therefore allow for whatever heating is necessary (from 'standard' cold water).

 

On a boat the sums are different, because you haven't an (effectively) infinite source of electricity, and the water in the calorifier is probably hotter than the water in a domestic HW cylinder (and is heated for free, if you are cruising). I'd suggest there is no point in trying to heat the water in the washing machine using the inverter and battery bank: just use the hot you have already. That would be my logic, anyway.

 

 

For most people I would agree (with the standard statement) but for us (and boaters with a calorfier) its actualy more costly that way as you said. All our hot water is from our wood fired Rayburn. Yes I guess we use more wood on it than a non water heating one but all our wood is free so its still cheaper that way.

 

How ever on a 30deg wash it did not even try to heat the water at all. Will have to try that in winter too when the incoming water is much colder.

 

Justme

[Justme]

On this cycle 30 deg cotton/colour care wash 1 hour 52mins it consumes 0.45kw/h

(will add other cycles as we do them)

 

Justme

 

 

Have just done the same wash cycle but with the quick wash option which reduces the time taken to about 50 mins.

 

Total power used 0.37kw/h

 

Dint get to watch the meter but assume peak consumption to have been the same as before.

 

Which blows my theory that a quicker wash would use more power.

 

 

Justme

[BlueStringPudding]

AFAICR all washing machines these days are cold fill - it's more energy efficient for it to heat its own water than to draw it from a hot tank. Power consumptions therefore allow for whatever heating is necessary (from 'standard' cold water).

 

On a boat the sums are different, because you haven't an (effectively) infinite source of electricity, and the water in the calorifier is probably hotter than the water in a domestic HW cylinder (and is heated for free, if you are cruising). I'd suggest there is no point in trying to heat the water in the washing machine using the inverter and battery bank: just use the hot you have already. That would be my logic, anyway.

 

Mine too. Hence the idea of running a cool/cold wash cycle but do it from the hot tap. All our hot water comes from running the negine which we have to do anyway (for battery charging and of course cruising)

Edited July 11, 2008 by BlueStringPudding

[Dave in France]

Here in France top loading machines are the norm - they work really well, the drum is just positioned differently to front loaders All the main brands sell them and the newer models have 30 minute eco washes too! Prices start at around 400€ for an Indesit type machine. They do save space, but the only downside is that you do need to access the top so cannot slot them under a worktop