Testing an old fire extinguisher ?

[alan_fincher]

Our fire extinguishers were well out of date, and have now been replaced.

 

Faced with a box of old ones, I'm highly tempted to try and let at least one off, to see if it was still in operable shape, or if the stories one hears of old ones not working are true.

 

Anyone done this ? Any tips ? How much mess ? Is it worth trying to practice actually putting something out ?

 

If I don't discharge them, how do I dispose of them ? Out local tip explicitly outlaws anything pressurised going in the skips.

 

Thanks,

 

Alan

[Keeping Up]

I chickened out of trying the three that I disposed of (because they were very old and hadn't ever been tipped up and shaken so had probably set solid). I went to our nearest tip, their literature said they don't take them but the "operative" took them happily and said he'd sell them on; I told him why I was getting rid of them but he just shrugged and said "someone will buy them". Again I repeated why I was getting rid of them, and left them in his hands. I wonder if his conscience is as clear as mine feels?

[blackrose]

It's worth doing so that you know what you're doing in case of an emergency, but do it outside. The mess the powder type make is horrendous -even the small ones.

Edited May 3, 2008 by blackrose

[cheshire~rose]

Our fire extinguishers were well out of date, and have now been replaced.

 

Faced with a box of old ones, I'm highly tempted to try and let at least one off, to see if it was still in operable shape, or if the stories one hears of old ones not working are true.

 

Anyone done this ? Any tips ? How much mess ? Is it worth trying to practice actually putting something out ?

 

If I don't discharge them, how do I dispose of them ? Out local tip explicitly outlaws anything pressurised going in the skips.

 

Thanks,

 

Alan

 

Please......... do NOT discharge them!

 

A former partner of mine was employed for a company who provided fire extinguisher servicing agreements.

 

He was discharging a (outdated) dry powder extinguisher when it failed dramatically. It took off like a rocket ....... aiming straight at his head!

 

I will not go into the details, suffice it to say that after 6 months in hospital and a further 3 years recovering it has been decided that he will never work again. (he was 24 when the accident happened) The company concerned were closed down while a health and safety investigation was carried out. They were allowed off with an formal warning only because their safety record to that point had been exemplary. They had to spend a lot of money making amendments to the the way the extinguishers were discharged to protect their staff in future.

 

If anyone wants to see the scans of the photos I have of the extinguisher that failed then let me know. I am more than willing to PM anyone with the full details. If the story does not scare you then the photos most certainly will!

 

For disposing of old extinguishers try contacting a company that supplies a service for them. it might cost a few £'s but that is so much cheaper than risking someone life with what is a potential bomb.

[blackrose]

Please......... do NOT discharge them!

 

A former partner of mine was employed for a company who provided fire extinguisher servicing agreements.

 

He was discharging a (outdated) dry powder extinguisher when it failed dramatically. It took off like a rocket ....... aiming straight at his head!

 

I will not go into the details, suffice it to say that after 6 months in hospital and a further 3 years recovering it has been decided that he will never work again. (he was 24 when the accident happened) The company concerned were closed down while a health and safety investigation was carried out. They were allowed off with an formal warning only because their safety record to that point had been exemplary. They had to spend a lot of money making amendments to the the way the extinguishers were discharged to protect their staff in future.

 

If anyone wants to see the scans of the photos I have of the extinguisher that failed then let me know. I am more than willing to PM anyone with the full details. If the story does not scare you then the photos most certainly will!

 

For disposing of old extinguishers try contacting a company that supplies a service for them. it might cost a few £'s but that is so much cheaper than risking someone life with what is a potential bomb.

 

Did the HSE report state that the extinguisher failed so dramatically because it was outdated or because it was faulty in the first place? Or was that not possible to determine?

[alan_fincher]

Rose,

 

I'm stunned by your story.

 

If something that is supposed to be there for our safety can turn into a lethal weapon if deployed, I find it very scary.

 

It's very hard to see how one that is out of date can present a greater danger than one that is, so I'm kind of guessing there must have been some manufacturing defect not related to it's age.

 

It seems sensible to heed your warning, but it's a bit of a shame not to be able to practice with one, and have some idea of what happens when they are discharged.

 

I'll have a look at the local council's website, and see if they make any recommendation about disposal.

 

Out of interest, knowing what you do, if you were on a boat, and there was a fire, would you attempt to use one of the extinguishers ?

 

Alan

[cheshire~rose]

Rose,

 

I'm stunned by your story.

 

If something that is supposed to be there for our safety can turn into a lethal weapon if deployed, I find it very scary.

 

It's very hard to see how one that is out of date can present a greater danger than one that is, so I'm kind of guessing there must have been some manufacturing defect not related to it's age.

 

It seems sensible to heed your warning, but it's a bit of a shame not to be able to practice with one, and have some idea of what happens when they are discharged.

 

I'll have a look at the local council's website, and see if they make any recommendation about disposal.

 

Out of interest, knowing what you do, if you were on a boat, and there was a fire, would you attempt to use one of the extinguishers ?

 

Alan

 

The defect in the extinguisher was caused entirely by its age and lack of previous servicing.

 

It was, as I said a dry powder extinguisher. It had been through a hard life at events held mostly outdoors where it had been standing on wet grass by a marquee etc.

 

It had NOT been serviced for a VERY LONG TIME! It appears the company who my partner worked for (A highly reputable name in the business) had been asked to go in and carry out upgrades following a visit to the company who owned this extinguisher. The old items were so past it they were replaced and sent back to their base for recycling. That is where the accident happened.

 

The welds around the base had become weakened by corrosion that was unseen because they were on the base. The damp had caused the powder to solidify to a stone like substance in the syphon tube. When the extinguisher was activated the pressure was released into the main body of the cylinder. with the syphon tube effectively blocked the pressure found its way out by the weakest point....... the base.

 

The base was forced open (looks a little like the cartoon tins of spinach after Popeye has opened them on the photo) causing the extinguisher to launch itself off the bench it was on at exactly the wrong angle to cause harm.

 

It took me a while to get used to walking past the fire extinguishers in the hospital corridors every day in the 6 months I was visiting the hospital. I suspect the victim still holds a deep seated fear of them (although he was receiving therapy for this the last I heard)

 

I would have no fear in the least of using a fire extinguisher in the event of an emergency. I do have a tendency to always look for a service record on them wherever I go though. I have been known to take a craft look at the dates on many extinguishers out of curiosity. I am certain that if I spotted any establishment which had dodgy looking extinguishers I would notify the H&SE.

 

I know the same result is very unlikely in anything other than a powder extinguisher but it never ceases to amaze me that so many people fail to realise these items are pressurised gas cannisters and as such can be just as dangerous if treated without respect.

 

I have no wish to scare anyone. They are a vital safety aid but they require respect! I just get a bit jittery if I think my friends might be putting themselves in danger needlessly!

 

If this story just makes a few people go and look at the date on the extinguisher they have propping the shed door open and makes then think then it will have done its job. Most boat extinguishers seem to be fine because the certificate requires that they are inspected at intervals. It is more likely the one standing by the diesel pump at the marina which has been out doors for a few years would be the one to be careful of!

 

Sorry if scared you!

[alan_fincher]

Thanks rose,

 

That all makes perfect sense....

 

I can see that the outer casing would only become subjected to operating pressure when the handle is pulled.

 

As ours are not that old, and look in perfect condition other than the date on them, I think it highly unlikely the case would fail.

 

But I'm not confident the powder is not sufficiently compacted that it could block the nozzle.

 

In view of what you have said, I think I'll forgo the opportunity to practice being a fireman.

 

Your input much appreciated,

 

Alan

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks rose,

 

That all makes perfect sense....

 

I can see that the outer casing would only become subjected to operating pressure when the handle is pulled.

 

As ours are not that old, and look in perfect condition other than the date on them, I think it highly unlikely the case would fail.

 

But I'm not confident the powder is not sufficiently compacted that it could block the nozzle.

 

In view of what you have said, I think I'll forgo the opportunity to practice being a fireman.

 

Your input much appreciated,

 

Alan

 

Hey........

 

(at risk of upsetting Bazza) don't believe what you have heard about all the girls loving firemen!

 

I love you even without fire fighting experience

[blackrose]

Sounds like a good recommendation for inverting your 'in date' extinguishers every so often and shaking them up a bit to stop the powder compacting.

 

In view of what you have said, I think I'll forgo the opportunity to practice being a fireman.

 

Or you could just spend £13 and practice with a good one.

[alan_fincher]

Sounds like a good recommendation for inverting your 'in date' extinguishers every so often and shaking them up a bit to stop the powder compacting.

 

Or you could just spend £13 and practice with a good one.

Or £7 if you buy from Argos, and are not fussy about the 'A' and 'B' ratings.

 

Our "real" ones are not from there, but I'm intrigued that with those, I can buy the same rating in a 1KG model as it was on 2KG models I'm replacing. They seem to have made them more "efficient" in some way, since the last lot were installed.

 

 

Hey........

 

(at risk of upsetting Bazza) don't believe what you have heard about all the girls loving firemen!

 

I love you even without fire fighting experience

Bugger !

 

I had just arranged to hire the costume and booked the photo-shoot for the calendar as well

[cheshire~rose]

Bugger !

 

I had just arranged to hire the costume and booked the photo-shoot for the calendar as well

 

 

Well don't let me stop you!

 

Chris J W is expert at costumes

 

I am certain if you have a word with him and borrow a few bits of kit from Bazza the effect will be fantastic!

[Keeping Up]

Most boat extinguishers seem to be fine because the certificate requires that they are inspected at intervals

Not necessarily. The inspection doesn't (and couldn't) check whether they have been regularly upended or shaken, and on many of the types with a pressure gauge there is no "use by" or "check" date, just the date of manufacture and a pressure gauge. On those (which are probably the majority) the BSS merely requires a check that the pressure gauge is "in the green".

 

Mine were well over 10 years old and had not been inverted or shaken about nearly enough, which was why I decided to replace them. But all the gauges were in the green sector and I'm sure they would have passed a BSS inspection with no trouble.

[smileypete]

The defect in the extinguisher was caused entirely by its age and lack of previous servicing.

 

It was, as I said a dry powder extinguisher. It had been through a hard life at events held mostly outdoors where it had been standing on wet grass by a marquee etc.

 

It had NOT been serviced for a VERY LONG TIME! It appears the company who my partner worked for (A highly reputable name in the business) had been asked to go in and carry out upgrades following a visit to the company who owned this extinguisher. The old items were so past it they were replaced and sent back to their base for recycling. That is where the accident happened.

 

The welds around the base had become weakened by corrosion that was unseen because they were on the base. The damp had caused the powder to solidify to a stone like substance in the syphon tube. When the extinguisher was activated the pressure was released into the main body of the cylinder. with the syphon tube effectively blocked the pressure found its way out by the weakest point....... the base.

 

Hi,

 

Do you know if it was made to EN3 (pressurised equipment directive)? Also did it have a gauge and/or a test point?

 

I think some of the smaller powder extinguishers are cartridge type ones, but the ones with gauges and test point are less likey to be.

 

In any case all the ones I have are welded on the outside with the weld some way up from the base, maybe as part of EN3.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited May 5, 2008 by smileypete

[sherbert]

It was always Fire Brigade practice that all thier own DP ext especially those carried on the appliances (because of the vibration)were turned upside down banged and shaken on a very regular basis to loosen the powder which compacts so I would recommend that anyone on a boat does the same otherwise when you come to use it it may well fail

As for discharging an old(or a new one) the mess is awful you need to be in the middle of several fields

[cheshire~rose]

Hi,

 

Do you know if it was made to EN3 (pressurised equipment directive)? Also did it have a gauge and/or a test point?

 

I think some of the smaller powder extinguishers are cartridge type ones, but the ones with gauges and test point are less likey to be.

 

In any case all the ones I have are welded on the outside with the weld some way up from the base, maybe as part of EN3.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

As I stated the extinguisher was quite old. I cannot at first glance any details of the manufacture in the 11 page H&SE report I have.

 

Their concern was not with the original manufacture as it was evident from the microstructural examination they carried out out on both the failed extinguisher and another from the same batch and the stress calculations that the problem was nothing to do with the manufacture but soley its storage and (lack of) maintenance since.

 

This was not a small extinguisher like you find on boats but a full size 45kg. The only indication of any kind of maintenance was the label stating it had been refilled on 24/7/94. It was being decommissioned when the accident took place, 27/5/03, 9 years later!

[alan_fincher]

Well my local council in Herts will not take a charged dry powder extinguisher for disposal.

 

They referred me to Herts "Waste Aware".

 

That suggests discharging them into your dustbin, so the depressurised cylinder can then go into the metal recycling facility at a council tip. (No mention of any precautions to take, or likely mess to clear up).

 

So the official advice is to do what Cheshire Rose is suggesting I should not

 

It's not hard to see why people lob their unwanted problem items in the cut, is it ?

[NB Phoenix]

Well my local council in Herts will not take a charged dry powder extinguisher for disposal.

 

They referred me to Herts "Waste Aware".

 

That suggests discharging them into your dustbin, so the depressurised cylinder can then go into the metal recycling facility at a council tip. (No mention of any precautions to take, or likely mess to clear up).

 

So the official advice is to do what Cheshire Rose is suggesting I should not

 

It's not hard to see why people lob their unwanted problem items in the cut, is it ?

 

Hi Alan

 

Cheshire~Rose is absolutely correct with her warnings, unfortunately gained from her very personal experience.

 

BUT you can safely depressurise an old extinguisher if you know the type of operation.

 

 

Let me explain. Two basic types of extinguisher (disregarding the contents).

 

1. Stored Pressure. The gas pressure needed to expel the contents is contained within the main body of the extinguisher, rather like an aerosol can, and therefore the whole container is permanently under pressure.

2. Gas Cartridge. Where the gas pressure is contained in the “gas cartridge” and only released when the extinguisher is operated. Therefore the main body of the extinguisher is at atmospheric pressure until the cartridge is fired.

 

Now the latter (Gas Cartridge) can, if not serviced or maintained, fail when operated and I am assuming that the incident concerning Roses partner involved a gas cartridge type extinguisher?

 

So let me deal with the stored pressure type first. These are normally the smaller type as used in boats and can generally be recognised by having a small pressure gauge or a Shrader Valve (the type of valve found on car tires) or both.

 

If the extinguisher has a Shrader Valve simply press the pin of the valve to depressurise the extinguisher. If there is no valve but it still has a gauge you can turn the extinguisher upside down, give it a GOOD shake and whilst still inverted squeeze the handle. You will need to do this outside as there will be a small amount of the extinguishing media expelled. Keep the handle squeezed until the extinguisher stops hissing. You can then take them to your local tip.

 

Gas Cartridge can also be made safe BUT not by operation! They can be dismantled and the pressure cartridge fired. This is a job for someone who knows the finer details. I would suggest that if your extinguishers are of this type you take them to your local fire station and explain the situation.

 

I see you are in Hertfordshire which is not that far from me in Cambridgeshire (Herts Fire & Rescue is my old brigade). I would be happy to arrange to meet and I will make them safe for you, just PM me.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

 

John

[cheshire~rose]

I am assuming that the incident concerning Roses partner involved a gas cartridge type extinguisher?

 

You have assumed correctly.

 

 

This is a job for someone who knows the finer details. I would suggest that if your extinguishers are of this type you take them to your local fire station and explain the situation.

 

I see you are in Hertfordshire which is not that far from me in Cambridgeshire (Herts Fire & Rescue is my old brigade). I would be happy to arrange to meet and I will make them safe for you, just PM me.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

 

John

 

John,

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain this in a way where forum members can make an informed decision on how to proceed and thank you for offering to assist with making this particular extinguisher safe.

 

It is very interesting to note that the local fire brigade should be able to assist with old extinguishers. I had thought the only way forward would be to approach a firm who deal with servicing them. I think your post has assisted a lot of forum members and as far as I am concerned if it saves anyone from a potential injury it is very good news.

Thanks John

[carlt]

Now, about these out of date flares I need to get rid of.....

[cheshire~rose]

Now, about these out of date flares I need to get rid of.....

 

Flares are bang up to date these days Carl..........

 

Get with it man!

 

have you not heard of fashion?

[alan_fincher]

Yes, thanks for the very detailed explanation, John.

 

I'm 99% certain we have the first type you describe where the whole thing is already under pressure.

 

We have little gauges, but no Schraeder valve I can see.

 

These are the beasties, (posting links rather than images, to be kind to anyone on a mobile connection....)

 

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...nguishers_1.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...nguishers_2.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...nguishers_3.jpg

 

They were manufactured by Firemaster in 1999, and say they are pressurised with Nitrogen to 12 bar.

 

John, can you please confirm these are not of the canister type.

 

Many thanks,

 

Alan

[NB Phoenix]

Yes, thanks for the very detailed explanation, John.

 

I'm 99% certain we have the first type you describe where the whole thing is already under pressure.

 

We have little gauges, but no Schraeder valve I can see.

 

These are the beasties, (posting links rather than images, to be kind to anyone on a mobile connection....)

 

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...nguishers_1.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...nguishers_2.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...nguishers_3.jpg

 

They were manufactured by Firemaster in 1999, and say they are pressurised with Nitrogen to 12 bar.

 

John, can you please confirm these are not of the canister type.

 

Many thanks,

 

Alan

 

Alan

 

Yes they are the stored pressure type and could be safely depressurised by turning up side down and operating the trigger. There will be some discharge of powder but only a small amount. Give me a PM if you want a hand.

 

John

[alan_fincher]

Alan

 

Yes they are the stored pressure type and could be safely depressurised by turning up side down and operating the trigger. There will be some discharge of powder but only a small amount. Give me a PM if you want a hand.

 

John

 

OK, thanks, John.

 

I may well let one off the right way up, out of curiosity to see if they have remained operable. (Yes I know there will be a mess if it works!).

 

Alan

[cheshire~rose]

OK, thanks, John.

 

I may well let one off the right way up, out of curiosity to see if they have remained operable. (Yes I know there will be a mess if it works!).

 

Alan

 

why not video yourself discharging it and post it on you tube? so it will put other people out of their curiosity?