help needed sailaway lined leaking

[dollybassett]

Thank you all so much for your replies, i have spoken to the boat company today and asked for a full refund, which has been refused, they have gven me a date of first weekend in feb just to inspect boat, not sure they will turn up though they promised to pick up the boat at the weekend never turned up and did't bother to phone. I am going to write letters and visit CAB for advice not certainly not give up they have £26,500 of my hard earned and saved money.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions and help

 

Dollybassett

[BlueStringPudding]

Thank you all so much for your replies, i have spoken to the boat company today and asked for a full refund, which has been refused, they have gven me a date of first weekend in feb just to inspect boat, not sure they will turn up though they promised to pick up the boat at the weekend never turned up and did't bother to phone. I am going to write letters and visit CAB for advice not certainly not give up they have £26,500 of my hard earned and saved money.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions and help

 

Dollybassett

 

Put that in the letter.

[Yoda]

Dont do anything with the builder without a registered letter each time. Telephone calls hold no water pardon the pun but a letter does.

[PaddingtonBear]

Put that in the letter.

 

 

All very good advice indeed from BSP/Yoda Please take advice from Trading Standards, Citizens Advice BEFORE you renew your relationship with LB. They certainly seem to be very slow in responding as well, ask for full details of what they propose and ask them for an extension to any? guarantees etc.always assuming that you agree to them doing the work. Is there anyone experienced in boats etc. that would be around to offer direct support/help? (provided that you would want it) It strikes me that they wouldn't be so dismissive if Carl or/and Chris W were standing along side you

Edited January 22, 2008 by PaddingtonBear

[blackrose]

The point here is that whilst it MAY be the case that the 'major faults' are covered by warranty, the builders hitherto have not been forthcoming with any assistance, hoping I expect to win a war of attrition against a desperate customer. (See previous saga of another builder/customer reported by Gary Peacock) In any event, this is not 'rocket science' and having done it hundreds of times before you would have expected them to have got it right by now!! I also note your comment that 'These sorts of problems are rectified all the time' again surely they should have got it right by now. Would you trust them to 'rectify' the faults properly? and if they are that major surely they will seriously affect the future value.

 

I meant that these problems are rectified by many builders all the time, not just LB. I've seen them sort out these problems and once they've been fixed they seem to be fine. So in answer to your question, yes I would trust them to do it properly and once fixed I don't see why it should affect the future value of the boat. I agree that LB are very wrong in trying to ignore the customer, but again they are not alone amongst builders in taking this stance on warranty jobs

 

In any event it was inferred by your post of 0225 that the purchaser should try to seal the windows in the short term with PU sealant, a material I am sure that all 'Scouse' customers are overly with familiar with.

Well that was inferred by yourself not me. I made no such inference and was talking about the builder fixing the problem under warranty. Along with the majority of builders, LB use a PU sealant to seal windows to the shell. So no, I'm no more familiar with PU sealant than any other person who's fitted out a sailaway and used it to bed in skin fittings etc.

Edited January 22, 2008 by blackrose

[blackrose]

Thank you all so much for your replies, i have spoken to the boat company today and asked for a full refund, which has been refused, they have gven me a date of first weekend in feb just to inspect boat, not sure they will turn up though they promised to pick up the boat at the weekend never turned up and did't bother to phone. I am going to write letters and visit CAB for advice not certainly not give up they have £26,500 of my hard earned and saved money.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions and help

 

Dollybassett

 

I thought that might be their response. Although you're probably entitled to one I really think you'd have a big fight to get a full refund from them. If you're determined enough you could probably do it. However, if you keep that attitude as your fallback position they'll probably try to get all the warranty work done ASAP. Clearly as Paddington said, since they make so many of these boats you'd think they'd get it right the first time - it shouldn't be like this. Anyway, good luck with it and try to be a tough with them even though it might not be in your nature.

Edited January 22, 2008 by blackrose

[Derek Porteous]

Whilst in no way condoning LB's lack of response, I can comment on my experience of them when they built my 55ft fully fitted nb 3 years back.

 

They were always helpful, if a little disorganised. I got the impression that chaos reigned, but nevertheless was very pleased with the final product. It was good value for money with few items on the snagging list. They sent out an electrian to sort out an additional battery charger who met me en route to my mooring in Ripon. No fuss, even if I did provide the bacon butties.

 

Any follow up technical questions have been answered promptly and helpfully.

 

I do hope you get your problems sorted out. Perhaps LB are reading this forum and taking note of the adverse comments?

 

Derek

[blackrose]

Perhaps LB are reading this forum and taking note of the adverse comments?

They certainly should. It would probably have put me off buying a boat from them had I read this beforehand.

[Mick_B]

They certainly should. It would probably have put me off buying a boat from them had I read this beforehand.

Not me.... Can't afford anyone elses sail-away's.

[PaddingtonBear]

Not me.... Can't afford anyone elses sail-away's.

 

Surely it is a case of paying peanuts and getting(extremely expensive)monkeys? Can someone please explain why do people buy new c**P when, especially in the current economic climate, there are some fantastic bargains to be had in the nearly new/secondhand market, even if you are that mad on them, Liverpool Boats which despite what some will say depreciate faster than most others.

 

By the way Derek they don't appear to have acted very chaotically in taking the money For gods sake don't start feeling sorry for them.

[Scotty]

Excellent reply from Lisa(BSP), great advice.

 

Perhaps LB are reading this forum and taking note of the adverse comments?

It's not helping their reputation, i'm looking to buy a boat at the moment and stories like these don't give me much confidence in LB

[blackrose]

Can someone please explain why do people buy new c**P when, especially in the current economic climate, there are some fantastic bargains to be had in the nearly new/secondhand market, even if you are that mad on them, Liverpool Boats which despite what some will say depreciate faster than most others.

 

Possibly because some people don't agree with your basic premise? (that they are crap).

 

A Liverpool boat will depreciate faster than a higher quality boat, but that is not most boats, and it will not depreciate any faster than other boats in its class.

 

Please read this thread. Phil Speight is a reknowned boat painter who is well-respected in the industry.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...liverpool+boats

 

He says he'd consider a buying a LB. Are you really saying he doesn't know his stuff?

 

Also perhaps you could tell us who your boat was built by? (Just so we know what we're comparing our crap to.)

Edited January 22, 2008 by blackrose

[onthecut]

Surely it is a case of paying peanuts and getting(extremely expensive)monkeys? Can someone please explain why do people buy new c**P when, especially in the current economic climate, there are some fantastic bargains to be had in the nearly new/secondhand market, even if you are that mad on them, Liverpool Boats which despite what some will say depreciate faster than most others.

 

By the way Derek they don't appear to have acted very chaotically in taking the money For gods sake don't start feeling sorry for them.

 

I can certainly explain why I did. First, you can pay getting on half as much again for not much perceptible improvement in basic product; in point of fact I have seen a number of hulls that undoubtedly cost considerably more than a LB job with very markedly rippled sides and very average paint jobs. Second, a number of builders are rather more keen to sell you the boat they want to build rather than the boat you want. Third, being a visibly busy set up, although by no means a firm guarantee of security is more encouraging than some builders who want stage and material payments seemingly before they can afford to start at all. Fourth, I wanted exactly what I wanted, so to speak --- and there's not a second hand boat out there that does that for me. All in all I found LB to be a reasonable compromise for my requirements. As I have no plans to part with mine and the fit out is mine, depreciation isn't an issue. None of the above remotely excuses the issue underlying the thread, but equally I think to dismiss all the product as substandard doesn't reflect reality. I find it hard to imagine if they were universally junk that they would still be around.

 

Mike.

[dollybassett]

In all fairness to that liverpool boat company, i had a sailaway before this new boat which was excellent no problems with it at all, just seems this one everything is bad about it, i think mainly caused by bad workmanship. I will never buy from them again, the way i have been treated over this boat is disgraceful, you live and learn, i'm sure it will be sorted out eventually.

 

Thank you to Liz for the draft letter i will certainly use it.

 

Dollybassett

[dor]

There are always people who will knock LB and others who will praise them. Putting 400-odd boats on the water each year is bound to find a few dodgy ones. Whilst in no way condoning this poor quality control, I expect many other builders would have their problem boats if they built the same quantity.

 

DO keep on at LB and don't let them fob you off. A friend had a sailaway from them that was over specified width. It took a bit of niggling, but they eventually replaced the boat, including fitting out to the stage that had been completed.

[Hobbler]

A friend had a sailaway from them that was over specified width.

 

This does not seem to be an unusual occurrence - I met five owners with the same problem last year.

[blackrose]

This does not seem to be an unusual occurrence - I met five owners with the same problem last year.

 

I would have kept quiet and considered myself fortunate - the wider the better in my opinion.

[NiceNarrowboat]

There's some really good advice coming out here - I strongly endorse a lot of it (especially that about making ALL correspondence via email/letter sent registered post). I would emphasise getting a survey is possibly your best way forward as from reading your posts you don't seem to be making much headway at the moment with the company.

 

The benefits include potentially offering a short-term resolution: if you and your boatbuilder can agree to hire an independent surveyor, share the cost (approx £500 - £1k) and accept the surveyor's findings as binding, then a survey offers you a quick, cheap(er) but not ineffective resolution.

 

In the medium-term (approx up to one year) a survey offers a third point of view - and will pick up things you might not be aware of. I personally would do this as the starting point and not let the boatbuilder touch your boat until you have had one done. They are worth the expense - you get a very useful document to negotiate what you want as an outcome, and determining causes of faults/negligence which they are obliged to fix as most cases (such as yours) do not get to court but rather to arbitration or are settled out-of-court. A survey therefore acts as a bargaining tool as you can then estimate the costs of each problem requiring remedy.

 

Thinking more long-term, a surveyor will be a witness should you take the long road to the courthouse. This is often the only route available if your boatbuilder does not agree that there is anything wrong/repair the necessaries. The cost of the survey can then, of course, be reclaimed in court. A survey is also viewed as being more objective to views held by youself and your boatbuilder - which of course come laced with the expectation or belief entitling you to financial gain etc etc.

 

Finally, surveyors are cheap compared to lawyers (free tip - hire a marine lawyer!).

 

Trading Standards have been a source of disappointment for many who, like yourself, have found themselves bereft when purchasing a narrowboat. I would advise you to minimise your expectations of them - just report the company on the grounds that one day, someone will pay attention to poor treatment by some builders in the industry so you may be able to help someone else out!

 

I'm afraid that unless your boatbuilder is willing to fix problems immediately, then you have to do the leg-work to ensure that you get some resolution.

 

Wishing you all the best (and apologies for being more worst-case scenario than other posters!)

PM me if I can be of any further assistance.

NiceNarrowboat (who is not, nor has ever been, a surveyor, nor has one in the family, and has only met one in their life).

[Dylan]

This does not seem to be an unusual occurrence - I met five owners with the same problem last year.

Five owners with over-size boats from the same builder? Or from various builders?

[ChrisPy]

Five owners with over-size boats from the same builder? Or from various builders?

problem seems to be that the width is fixed at the fore and aft bulkheads, but the hull tends to spread a bit in the middle. when you consider how little structural framing there is (as opposed to panel stiffening), it is not really surprising.

 

if I did it again I would specify a central steel skeleton bulkhead.

[Gary Peacock]

I can't really see how you can build an "over-size" boat at least beam wise that is. One of the first things you do is to set the "gauge" after the side sheets are stood up and brace it there.

 

 

This isn't rocket science just the way it is done, the only chance of getting this wrong is if the tape measure is wrong!

 

The bow and stern are then dictated by this set gauge and built to match it.

 

 

 

The hull is only tacked together initially allowing you to make any minor adjustments prior to fully welding and the bracing setting the gauge remains in place until the hull is complete, when it is removed the hull will "move" but this is usually in the fractions of an inch not inches.

 

You can look how a hull is built HERE

 

I might be wrong but I find it a bit far fetched that any builder could build an over-size boat without doing it intentionally there are just too many points where it would picked up on.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[blackrose]

if I did it again I would specify a central steel skeleton bulkhead.

Not from LB you wouldn't - they'd tell you to naff owff! (or whatever the scouse version of that expression is).

 

Anyway, your widebeam's not spreading is it?

[onthecut]

Not from LB you wouldn't - they'd tell you to naff owff! (or whatever the scouse version of that expression is).

 

Anyway, your widebeam's not spreading is it?

 

You must have caught them on a bad day -- have to say I found them reasonably accommodating, particularly as they weren't even managing to sell me an engine to go with the shell.

 

Mike.

[ChrisPy]

Not from LB you wouldn't - they'd tell you to naff owff! (or whatever the scouse version of that expression is).

 

Anyway, your widebeam's not spreading is it?

Running a string line along each gunwale, there is a bulge of about one inch at the centre. Not a curve, but two straight lines and a change of direction. The hull was delivered like that, it isn't spreading now. I can't recall but there's probably a vertical hull seam at that point. It doesn't bother me.

 

You'd be surprised how many modifications LB will make if you speak to them nicely - or that was the case in 2004/5 when I ordered mine.

[blackrose]

You must have caught them on a bad day -- have to say I found them reasonably accommodating, particularly as they weren't even managing to sell me an engine to go with the shell.

 

Mike.

 

I only said that because when I spoke to LB they told me they prefered not to do non-standard things. For example, I was thinking about having the superstructure extended right up to within a few feet of the bow and not having a bow well-deck (like Legard Bridge barges), but they said they wouldn't do it.

 

I actually went through NBC in the end who were even more reluctant to do anything that wasn't in their catalogue. They only offered 9" or 12" dia portholes for example, and when I said I wanted 15" they said that wasn't possible. I phoned LB who said that was no problem and when I told NBC that I was thinking of going direct they promptly changed their minds and said I could order the portholes of my choice.

Edited January 23, 2008 by blackrose