Perkins 4/107 leaking water/oil from bellhousing area

[magnetman]

a friend unwisely bought a broads cruiser from someone he knows (marine industry trader on the Thames) and the 4/107 in it has significant issues. 

 

The first major fault I spotted was it had been repainted with a rattle can. Not a good sign. 

 

Anyway we ran it for a while and firstly it pumps water out of the header tank overflow (cap spring and seal are fine and also out of a small gap at the bottom of the bellhousing bolts on.

 

It is a direct cooled engine not heat exchanger. 

 

It also dumps oil and there is condensation on the oil filler. 

 

My friend is an old git and I don't appreciate him getting done over by someone he knows who is also trading as a marine engineer. He is going to have a word but if this is not resolved I will happily name the individual on here as this is rude. 

 

This sounds like head gasket and also possibly a core plug? Is there a core plug somewhere on the back end near where the gearbox bolts on ? 

 

I know also the 107 has wet liners so presumably there is a seal of some sort. 

 

Photo of the stream of water coming out of the bellhousing. Looks like emulsion to me. 

 

 

 

 

Engine runs perfectly well no oil in exhaust and plenty of water coming out the back (Jabsco impeller has been replaced). 

 

Gearbox oil is clean. 

 

Any ideas? Frost damage? Major overheating leading to head gasket failure? internal corrosion taking out a core plug? 

 

It was on the broads and I wondered if the water there might be a bit salty. 

 

We are not going to run it as oil mixed with water will take out the bearings rapidly. 

 

 

[john.k]

The 4/107 is a wet sleeve motor,and milky oil is a classic sign of pinholed liner .........however cracked heads is also a well known feature of these motors .....one,tuther ...or both?..........

[Tony Brooks]

Sorry, but the photo is too close in for me to get a decent idea as to where the leak is - that makes a change, I usually have to blow posted photos up to see detail.

 

I can't really see if it is coming from between the engine backplate & block or backplate and bell housing. If it is the latter than is it possible there has been a lot of water in the bilge hat has seeped into the bell housing, so the flywheel is throwing it out.

 

I don't think that I have ever seen a water and engine oil emulsion so white, with little or no sign of the oil's amber hue, let along the black of used diesel lube oil. What it puts me most in mind of is clean water mixed with something like Bilgex bilge cleaner or some sort of emulsion type degreaser. Is it worth taking the starter off to have a look inside the flywheel housing.

 

I am not sure this is any help.

 

[john.k]

Another fact is Jabsco pumps can get up considerable pressure ,in V8 petrol motors,enough to blow head gaskets ...............I thought the pic was of a green frog .........anyhoo,the oil is probably coming thru the rear seal.....assuming it has one.......older Perks sometimes had no seal ,just a slinger and worm............. the motor needs fixin ...or replacin.

[Tony Brooks]

14 minutes ago, john.k said:

older Perks sometimes had no seal ,just a slinger and worm

 

In that case, the angle of installation needs checking plus the correct dipstick markings. Some smaller cruisers seem to have engines installed at steep angles so all the oil runs to the back and leaks when the engine is stationary. Not that the angle can be altered in most cases because of the shaft angle.

[bizzard]

The rivers around Gt Yarmouth are a bit salty, lower Bure, Breydon.

[john.k]

Id think the leak is due to oil level increased by water in the sump.

[magnetman]

23 minutes ago, john.k said:

Id think the leak is due to oil level increased by water in the sump.

The oil level has gone down and there is a lot of oil in bilge. I wonder about frost damage. 

The old git (79) has been on Boats since the 60s but he is getting MCI and denies it. I don't like the idea of someone who he knows and trusts pulling a fast one. Its rude. 

 

The engine is nackered. 

its a non original engine. The engine was in a broads cruiser originally. I think the Boat is an Elysian. 

Edited October 31, 2024 by magnetman

[ditchcrawler]

9 hours ago, bizzard said:

The rivers around Gt Yarmouth are a bit salty, lower Bure, Breydon.

A big bit, like the same as the North Sea

[Tony Brooks]

11 hours ago, magnetman said:

Anyway we ran it for a while and firstly it pumps water out of the header tank overflow (cap spring and seal are fine and also out of a small gap at the bottom of the bellhousing bolts on.

 

It is a direct cooled engine not heat exchanger. 

 

 

There is something odd here. Direct raw water cooled engines do no have header tanks or pressure caps in their native state. They belong on keel cooled, tank cooled or heat exchanger. If this is a Broads cruiser could it be keel cooled?   Or it may be a bodged franken engine that has been converted from heat exchanger to direct raw water cooling.

 

If the boat is an Elysian 27 (in either form) or a Meaks Madera then I would not expect it to have started life with direct water cooling. Both ours and the Seamasters of similar vintage were heat exchanger.

 

Not that this helps in any way.

 

[magnetman]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

There is something odd here. Direct raw water cooled engines do no have header tanks or pressure caps in their native state. They belong on keel cooled, tank cooled or heat exchanger. If this is a Broads cruiser could it be keel cooled?   Or it may be a bodged franken engine that has been converted from heat exchanger to direct raw water cooling.

 

If the boat is an Elysian 27 (in either form) or a Meaks Madera then I would not expect it to have started life with direct water cooling. Both ours and the Seamasters of similar vintage were heat exchanger.

 

Not that this helps in any way.

 

The header tank looks too small to be a heat exchanger.  I expect it was originally direct cooled on a keel cooler but someone has modified it to have a wet exhaust. Jabsco pump. 

 

It seems to just be rather a terrible nackered and bodged piece of rubbish so hopefully he will be able to get his money back. 

 

It might not be an Elysian. I don't know actually. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The engine was apparently in a broads cruiser originally. 

[Tony Brooks]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

The header tank looks too small to be a heat exchanger.  I expect it was originally direct cooled on a keel cooler but someone has modified it to have a wet exhaust. Jabsco pump. 

 

It seems to just be rather a terrible nackered and bodged piece of rubbish so hopefully he will be able to get his money back. 

 

It might not be an Elysian. I don't know actually.

 

The engine was apparently in a broads cruiser originally. 

 

It would almost certainly have had a wet exhaust from new, whatever type of cooling system it was. Tank and keel cooling would both have a header tank of a size similar to the Bowman/Polar style exhaust manifolds on the small BMCs. Some of the Perkins had a fancy shaped one across the front of the engine.

 

Some calorifiers back in the day were supplied with a small plastic car type expansion tank with a 21psi plus pressure cap on them to act a bit like an expansion vessel. I am telling you this to hopefully help you get ammunition to get his money back.

[magnetman]

The header tank is cast aluminium and part of the engine. It looks similar to the header tanks on my BMC 1.5D engines. I thought it was a heat exchanger but it seems a bit small. 

 

 

My own Perkins P4 has a header tank on the engine but is direct cooled via a skin tank with one pump and a dry exhaust. But that is a marinised industrial unit which was probably radiator cooled not a marine engine.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

43 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The header tank is cast aluminium and part of the engine. It looks similar to the header tanks on my BMC 1.5D engines. I thought it was a heat exchanger but it seems a bit small. 

 

If it has at least one large hose, plus two smaller ones on it, then it is a heat exchanger. (the other "large hose" may be a direct connection to the engine thermostat outlet.

 

However, none of this helps your friend or sorts the engine.

[DandGNWales]

Hope your friend gets his money back but if he ends up stuck with it, you can get all the parts needed from parts 4 engines, used to run a pair of Perkins 4108 in our Princess and they were cheap on original filters and all engine bits, but hope the guy who sold him the lemon does the right thing, goodluck

Cheers

Geoff